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[snfonseka]

Well... my sister.... I mean Hawkes' sister is a mage, and that's enough for my Hawke. Family comes first.

[The Baconer]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Grace only sought escape once she was being moved and abused from the Starkhaven circle to the far worse Kirkwall circle.

What abuses?

She gets PO'ed at Hawke because he doesn't offer help or guidance after they're freed (or he turns them in, which lets face it, is a fate worse than death).

So? Why is Hawke at fault just because she has a bloated sense of entitlement? Is it not enough to put himself at risk of templar suspicion by covering for them? Even worse if instead of lying he kills the templars to cover their escape. Apparently Hawke also has to hold their hand every step of the way and cook their meals? Why should I feel sympathetic just because she's incompetent?

[Rockpopple]

Yeah I never heard of anything saying Grace was abused at Kirkwall, let alone Starkhaven.

[StableZaner]

The mages were very hard to support all the way through. I thought it might of been a one sided affair, the Templars being for too overbearing and cruel to the mostly innocent mages. But everytime a major mage incident occured it ended up badly and in the end it seemed as if the mages (not as a whole mind you) were responsible for their own demise and war in Kirkwall.
The templars wanted to keep order and for all her bigotry and harshness Meredith deep down sincerely didn't want bloodshed, but the rogue mages kept pushing and then Anders, stupid bloody Anders pushed her too far.

I've played the game standing by the mages and standing by the templars, but all I wanted to do was stand by the city. I wanted to kick both sides ass. Orsino annoyed me at the very end why when on his side did he turn on you? Was it the demon he became completely took control of his will and mind? Orsino you might of been pushed too far by Templar distrust and cruelty, but dammit you didn't need to start hatin' on your one non-mage ally.

[TheAwesomologist]

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Grace only sought escape once she was being moved and abused from the Starkhaven circle to the far worse Kirkwall circle.

What abuses?

She gets PO'ed at Hawke because he doesn't offer help or guidance after they're freed (or he turns them in, which lets face it, is a fate worse than death).

So? Why is Hawke at fault just because she has a bloated sense of entitlement? Is it not enough to put himself at risk of templar suspicion by covering for them? Even worse if instead of lying he kills the templars to cover their escape. Apparently Hawke also has to hold their hand every step of the way and cook their meals? Why should I feel sympathetic just because she's incompetent?

I could have sworn she mentions the abuses of Templars in both Act of Mercy and the quest in the third act before she kills Thrask. I may be confusing her words with another characters, I'll have to replay those quests.

Also I'm not saying it is Hawke's fault she got captured, just reiterating why she gets upset with Hawke. She's put her blame on the wrong person, which is weird considering by that point in the game my Hawke was practicially holding rallies with Orsino and telling everyone to F**k the templars and Meredith, and yet she and a group of rebels still think I work for Meredith. One of the MANY inconsistencies of Act 3.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I don't think Grace is the mage that was accusing the templars of rape and abuse. That was somebody else, I think. Grace does mention being trapped in the dark cells, though. It's not difficult to imagine most mages are treated in the same arbitrary and abusive fashion, though.

As far as her raging against Hawke--yes, that was a little odd. She wasn't that crazy before getting to Kirkwall: whatever demons are twisting mages' heads in Kirkwall must have done a number on her.

[The Baconer]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

I could have sworn she mentions the abuses of Templars in both Act of Mercy and the quest in the third act before she kills Thrask. I may be confusing her words with another characters, I'll have to replay those quests.

Also I'm not saying it is Hawke's fault she got captured, just reiterating why she gets upset with Hawke. She's put her blame on the wrong person, which is weird considering by that point in the game my Hawke was practicially holding rallies with Orsino and telling everyone to F**k the templars and Meredith, and yet she and a group of rebels still think I work for Meredith. One of the MANY inconsistencies of Act 3.

Well, I might be sympathetic towards the likes of Evelina, Thrask's daughter, and other cases like that, but if I can't find any evidence of Grace's 'abuses' then my joy upon her immolation in all future playthroughs will continue undiminished.

[LobselVith8]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I don't think Grace is the mage that was accusing the templars of rape and abuse. That was somebody else, I think.

Alain, Act II.

[TobiTobsen]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Grace only sought escape once she was being moved and abused from the Starkhaven circle to the far worse Kirkwall circle.

What abuses?

She gets PO'ed at Hawke because he doesn't offer help or guidance after they're freed (or he turns them in, which lets face it, is a fate worse than death).

So? Why is Hawke at fault just because she has a bloated sense of entitlement? Is it not enough to put himself at risk of templar suspicion by covering for them? Even worse if instead of lying he kills the templars to cover their escape. Apparently Hawke also has to hold their hand every step of the way and cook their meals? Why should I feel sympathetic just because she's incompetent?

I could have sworn she mentions the abuses of Templars in both Act of Mercy and the quest in the third act before she kills Thrask. I may be confusing her words with another characters, I'll have to replay those quests.

Also I'm not saying it is Hawke's fault she got captured, just reiterating why she gets upset with Hawke. She's put her blame on the wrong person, which is weird considering by that point in the game my Hawke was practicially holding rallies with Orsino and telling everyone to F**k the templars and Meredith, and yet she and a group of rebels still think I work for Meredith. One of the MANY inconsistencies of Act 3.

Grace is using the whole mage rebellion as a cover to get revenge for the death of Decimus. She even kills Thrask, the other, way more competent leader of the rebellion, just to get back at Hawke. The woman is totally delusional.

[TheAwesomologist]

StableZaner wrote...

The mages were very hard to support all the way through. I thought it might of been a one sided affair, the Templars being for too overbearing and cruel to the mostly innocent mages. But everytime a major mage incident occured it ended up badly and in the end it seemed as if the mages (not as a whole mind you) were responsible for their own demise and war in Kirkwall.

Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

[Rifneno]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

StableZaner wrote...

The mages were very hard to support all the way through. I thought it might of been a one sided affair, the Templars being for too overbearing and cruel to the mostly innocent mages. But everytime a major mage incident occured it ended up badly and in the end it seemed as if the mages (not as a whole mind you) were responsible for their own demise and war in Kirkwall.

Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

Actually, I theorize that Quentin was escaped from the Kirkwall Circle.  I mean how did he meet Orsino?  I doubt they met at random in the Hanged Man and bonded drunkenly over how hard it is to get the smell of dismembered dwarf out of a wool robe.  The Circle being as strict as it is, Orsino has little freedom to wander about and apostates have to be very secretive not to get caught if they aren't being controlled by a DA fan in the real world.  I could be wrong obviously, but it seems a reasonably likely scenario.

[The Baconer]

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

BloodRagers, Huon, Tarohne, Gascard, Merrill (not a malevolent one, but still fits the parameters of your challenge).

Modifié par The Baconer, 11 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[TobiTobsen]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

StableZaner wrote...

The mages were very hard to support all the way through. I thought it might of been a one sided affair, the Templars being for too overbearing and cruel to the mostly innocent mages. But everytime a major mage incident occured it ended up badly and in the end it seemed as if the mages (not as a whole mind you) were responsible for their own demise and war in Kirkwall.

Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

Merrill
Idunna
Tarohne
Gascard DePuis
Decimus
Fell Orden
The leader of the Redwater Teeth (forgot his name)
Jake the Black
Nearly every Coterie and Slaver mage in town.
And all of the Blood Ragers.

I'm pretty sure that there are more, but that are the ones I can think of at the moment.

Edit: I'm not sure about Grace. We don't know if she was a blood mage before Act 3. She could have been one, with her personal affair with Decimus.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 11 avril 2011 - 04:30 .

[TheAwesomologist]

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

BloodRagers, Huon, Tarohne, Merrill (not a malevolent one, but still fits the parameters of your challenge).

BloodRagers are one of the night gangs for the Batman quests. They could have just as easily been mabari, or Warriors, or Rogues.
Huon - thats the elf who gets captured by Templars and for all accounts had been a normal loving husband until subject to the abuses and imprisonment of the Templars for 10 years, right?
Tarohne - Okay thats 2 mages so far although we don't know her back story. I'll give you that one.
Merrill - Well I said NPC Mage, I guess I should have stated non-party members as well. In the end though Merrill doesn't become evil or rage against anyone. If anything she's proof (along with Hawke, Avernus, Jowan, and others from DA:O) that Blood Magic itself isn't evil.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

BloodRagers, Huon, Tarohne, Gascard, Merrill (not a malevolent one, but still fits the parameters of your challenge).

Huon was a blood mage and mentally unstable after he was sent to the Gallows.

Edit:

Are we counting the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to fight the darkspawn (referenced by Duncan in the Magi Origin)? Or the Joining Ritual?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 avril 2011 - 04:29 .

[SleepyPerson]

The Baconer wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...
Name one NPC mage besides the serial killer who is not driven to Blood Magic by the Templars.

BloodRagers, Huon, Tarohne, Gascard, Merrill (not a malevolent one, but still fits the parameters of your challenge).

Huon - His wife mentions he wasn't like that before he was sent to the gallows.
Gascard - He sends you a letter in act 3 stating that he has given up on magic
Merrill- Even though she is a blood mage she understands the consequences because before her final quest she tells you that if something goes wrong she wants you to be the one who kills her.
Tarohne - She is bat**** crazy, so you're right about her but her actions are directed against the templars.

@TobiTobsen
Idunna - Her actions involve harming templars. If you give her a chance to live she becomes a better person in act 2.
Decimus - Escaped from the circle of starkhaven. He wants to slaughter templars.

Everyone else is a criminal who were lucky enough to be born with magic. But they aren't criminals because of magic.

Modifié par TricksterPuppet, 11 avril 2011 - 04:41 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Tarohne is only partially crazy. She actually has a focused, rational goal. She knows, for instance, that demons are not to be trusted and that they can be resisted. The thing is that she doesn't really have the capacity to resist them: and she allows them to possess others, which is really foolish. I would call her a failure more than anything else.

[TheAwesomologist]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merrill
Idunna
Tarohne
Gascard DePuis
Decimus
Fell Orden
The leader of the Redwater Teeth (forgot his name)
Jake the Black
Nearly every Coterie and Slaver mage in town.
And all of the Blood Ragers.

I'm pretty sure that there are more, but that are the ones I can think of at the moment.

I'm avoiding plot devices blood mages such as BloodRagers, slaver mages, and others that you kill along side animals, warriors, and rogues since they're just there as XP for Hawke. No one comes up to you asking to be saved from those groups except for one woman at the hanged man, and even she's after the fact.

I had to look up Jake the Black since I never got that quest because I let the Starkhaven mages escape.

I'm pretty sure Decimus is driven evil by the Templars although since he's part of the Grace quests I think I'll have to go back and hear their words exactly again.

I'll give you these 4:
Idunna
Tarohne
Gascard DePuis (forgot the serial killer had an apprentice)
Fell Orden

[The Baconer]

Huon - His wife mentions he wasn't like that before he was sent to the gallows.

Perhaps. But I wouldn't have listed him if I thought his use of blood magic was out of desparation.

Gascard - He sends you a letter in act 3 stating that he has given up on magic

No he didn't, since I killed him. It wouldn't matter either way, he was a blood mage that wasn't driven to it by templars, and that's the point.

Merrill- Even though she is a blood mage she understands the consequences because before her final quest she tells you that if something goes wrong she wants you to be the one who kills her.

Don't care. She still fits the criteria.

Tarohne - She is bat**** crazy, so you're right about her but her actions are directed against the templars.

Again, she fits the criteria and that's all that matters.

BloodRagers are one of the night gangs for the Batman quests. They could
have just as easily been mabari, or Warriors, or Rogues.

So? Anything could have been anything. The fact remains that they're blood mages.

Modifié par The Baconer, 11 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[TobiTobsen]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Merrill
Idunna
Tarohne
Gascard DePuis
Decimus
Fell Orden
The leader of the Redwater Teeth (forgot his name)
Jake the Black
Nearly every Coterie and Slaver mage in town.
And all of the Blood Ragers.

I'm pretty sure that there are more, but that are the ones I can think of at the moment.

I'm avoiding plot devices blood mages such as BloodRagers, slaver mages, and others that you kill along side animals, warriors, and rogues since they're just there as XP for Hawke. No one comes up to you asking to be saved from those groups except for one woman at the hanged man, and even she's after the fact.

I had to look up Jake the Black since I never got that quest because I let the Starkhaven mages escape.

I'm pretty sure Decimus is driven evil by the Templars although since he's part of the Grace quests I think I'll have to go back and hear their words exactly again.

I'll give you these 4:
Idunna
Tarohne
Gascard DePuis (forgot the serial killer had an apprentice)
Fell Orden

They are nevertheless part of the plot, targets of quests and therefore part of the lore. They have even named leaders that are mostly blood mages, like Danzig, Jackson "The Bleeder" Hall and the guy from the Redwater Teeth. I don't think that you can just ignore them.

[SleepyPerson]

The Baconer wrote...

Huon - His wife mentions he wasn't like that before he was sent to the gallows.

Perhaps. But I wouldn't have listed him if I thought his use of blood magic was out of desparation.

Gascard - He sends you a letter in act 3 stating that he has given up on magic

No he didn't, since I killed him. It wouldn't matter either way, he was a blood mage that wasn't driven to it by templars, and that's the point.

Merrill- Even though she is a blood mage she understands the consequences because before her final quest she tells you that if something goes wrong she wants you to be the one who kills her.

Don't care. She still fits the criteria.

Tarohne - She is bat**** crazy, so you're right about her but her actions are directed against the templars.

Again, she fits the criteria and that's all that matters.

I know sorry. I just felt the need to also mention that Merrill even though she wasn't driven to blood magic by templars, she doesn't use it for an evil goal, and that Gascard changes if given the oppurtunity.

[Brilhros]

It felt like that for me too, OP. Playing as a mage, I wanted to prove the templars wrong. But every time I tried, they turned out to be right in their suspicions. Even in cases where I was not expecting mages to be "out of their minds" (Orsino), they turned up to be, for the worse.

If it wasn't for Meredith's final crazy idol act, I would have sympathized with her feelings, although not with her methods.

Also, what's up with blood magic? Isn't it supposed to be a dark and forbiden art? And then, all of the sudden, every freaking mage I find is a blood mage...(I don't mean "every" just literally, but you get the point).

[TheAwesomologist]

TobiTobsen wrote...
They are nevertheless part of the plot, targets of quests and therefore part of the lore. They have even named leaders that are mostly blood mages, like Danzig, Jackson "The Bleeder" Hall and the guy from the Redwater Teeth. I don't think that you can just ignore them.

Even then they aren't enough of a reason to wipe out the ENTIRE CIRCLE OF KIRKWALL for. If the Templars did their job going after the real bad guys instead of using and abusing the ones they already had captured I'd be a bit more sympathetic to their call for help.

[TobiTobsen]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
They are nevertheless part of the plot, targets of quests and therefore part of the lore. They have even named leaders that are mostly blood mages, like Danzig, Jackson "The Bleeder" Hall and the guy from the Redwater Teeth. I don't think that you can just ignore them.

Even then they aren't enough of a reason to wipe out the ENTIRE CIRCLE OF KIRKWALL for. If the Templars did their job going after the real bad guys instead of using and abusing the ones they already had captured I'd be a bit more sympathetic to their call for help.

The main problem is the fact that some nutjob in the templar/chantry command chain thought it would be totally awesome to found a circle in Kirkwall, without reading the history books of the city. I think we should exhume that fool and slap him for it.

The mages are harassed all the time by demons, the templars push them for it, the mages push back. An endless loop of violence, because of one stupid mistake in the circle planning committee, that finaly escalated, thanks to Anders stupid decision and Meredith madness.

[IanPolaris]

Brilhros wrote...

It felt like that for me too, OP. Playing as a mage, I wanted to prove the templars wrong. But every time I tried, they turned out to be right in their suspicions. Even in cases where I was not expecting mages to be "out of their minds" (Orsino), they turned up to be, for the worse.

This was done deliberately to make the mages look worse than they were and by extension make the Templars look better.  Why?  The Devs apparently feel that the stupid players "don't understand the deep moral question" posed in the game and are upset that too many people side with the mages (which to me is a crock... the moral question(s) aren't that deep, difficult, or grey).

As such we get a very one-sided and skewed protraryal of mages esp in Act III along with some of the worst abuses of mages in full technicolar.  We never see the Templars breaking in their new Tranquil love-dolls.  We never see you or the Templars slaughtering children to enforce the Rite of Annulment (yet we KNOW that had to have happened).  we never see Templars jailing, imprisoning, or even killing innocent bystandards because they might be shelting apostates.  We hear about some of these but never see it.

Shame on you bioware.

-Polaris