484 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

....what?

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...
Yes honestly.  I am going to be rude and crass since no one else will and call out the elephant in the room.  Bioware clearly did not put a random generator to make the appearences of the NPCs.  They are specifically designed to illicit (whether we admit this or not) certain emotional responses from the viewer.....including sub-conscious racism which very much exists unfortunately to this day.

Do you really think it's an accident that the one good mage (other than Bethany who has partial PC armor) we see is of the "dusky complexion" as the 19th century British used to say?  Do you honestly think that wasn't done to illicit a certian subconscious reaction?  All the Templars we meet in DA2 (unlike DAO I might add) are all clearly Nordic and/or Northern European.

If you think this is an accident, I have some coastline in Montana I'd like to sell you.

-Polaris

... To be honest, I think the only sub-conscious racism he pinged was yours.

[IanPolaris]

Deified Data wrote...

I...don't think they meant for the player to feel antipathy towards Alain because he looks "middle-eastern".

Didn't they?  Please don't tell me that his appearence as the only "dusky mage" we see outside the Gallows is an accident?  Appearences are designed to drive home certain emotional responses...even those we don't want to aknowledge.

Do you think it's an accident that the Templars look like shining knights in armor while the mages in the gallows look almost to a person like disreputable Arabs? 

Again, I realize this is a touchy and ugly subject, but that doesn't mean it isn't accurate.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

... To be honest, I think the only sub-conscious racism he pinged was yours.

I disput this.  I am aware of the differnce in appearences.  If anything I'd have to turn the charge around and ask everyone to look at how both sides are presented in voice and appearence.  You will see that I am right.  The fact I am aware of it means I am less likely to be affected by it.  It's a cheap trick called subliminal perception (it's illegal in advertising now).

-Polaris

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Edit

IanPolaris wrote...
Alain winds up to be the only sane mage, but unlike all the Templars, he is made to look Middle-Eastern and thus appeal to a sub-conscious racism that too many people still have and make him seem even more untrustworthy and shifty than he really is.

Honestly, guy?

Yes honestly.  I am going to be rude and crass since no one else will and call out the elephant in the room.  Bioware clearly did not put a random generator to make the appearences of the NPCs.  They are specifically designed to illicit (whether we admit this or not) certain emotional responses from the viewer.....including sub-conscious racism which very much exists unfortunately to this day.

Do you really think it's an accident that the one good mage (other than Bethany who has partial PC armor) we see is of the "dusky complexion" as the 19th century British used to say?  Do you honestly think that wasn't done to illicit a certian subconscious reaction?  All the Templars we meet in DA2 (unlike DAO I might add) are all clearly Nordic and/or Northern European.

If you think this is an accident, I have some coastline in Montana I'd like to sell you.

-Polaris

Kudos to you for sticking to your guns, even if you're not all-together right.

First, Alain isn't a "good" mage. He's one of the countless weaker-willed mages who go along with blood mage plots just to be a part of something. He would have become an abomination in Grace's company eventually, anyway. How long can a boy like that use blood magic before it destroys him?

Second, Templars like Cullen and Meredith aren't depicted as epic, selfless heroes. Constantly we see them bending under the pressures of their jobs and displaying misplaced hatred towards mages. We don't see them committing great atrocities because they're socially responsible, as their job demands. If you want a Templat who doesn't take his job seriously, look to Thrask, and where it got him.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

....what?

Before you say I am wrong look at the appearances and voice acting on both sides, carefully and objectively.  That's all I ask.

-Polaris

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

I...don't think they meant for the player to feel antipathy towards Alain because he looks "middle-eastern".

Didn't they?  Please don't tell me that his appearence as the only "dusky mage" we see outside the Gallows is an accident?  Appearences are designed to drive home certain emotional responses...even those we don't want to aknowledge.

Do you think it's an accident that the Templars look like shining knights in armor while the mages in the gallows look almost to a person like disreputable Arabs? 

Again, I realize this is a touchy and ugly subject, but that doesn't mean it isn't accurate.

-Polaris

The Templars wear armor because its part of their uniform and their ethos. I wasn't aware that mages look like Arabs "to a person". Most NPCs are white because Thedas is an analogue of Europe.

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...
I disput this.  I am aware of the differnce in appearences.  If anything I'd have to turn the charge around and ask everyone to look at how both sides are presented in voice and appearence.  You will see that I am right.  The fact I am aware of it means I am less likely to be affected by it.  It's a cheap trick called subliminal perception (it's illegal in advertising now).

-Polaris

I... Honestly can't take you seriously anymore.

[Rockpopple]

Yeah, dude, Polaris, you just totally jumped the shark for me, sorry.

I mean how low of an opinion do you have not only of the BioWare devs, but of us. 

I don't know anyone who was so taken by Cullen's aryan good-looks that they found themselves nodding when he said things like "Mages are not people like you and me". I thought he was being a paranoid ass. 

I think there's a lot of projecting going on. You need to sort yourself out, fella.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 11 avril 2011 - 11:39 .

[IanPolaris]

Deified Data wrote...

Kudos to you for sticking to your guns, even if you're not all-together right.

First, Alain isn't a "good" mage. He's one of the countless weaker-willed mages who go along with blood mage plots just to be a part of something. He would have become an abomination in Grace's company eventually, anyway. How long can a boy like that use blood magic before it destroys him?

Perhaps "good" wasn't the right word, but perhaps forgvable or at least non-evil would be better.  He is about the only mage we see outside the Gallows (certainly in Act 3) that seems to have any sympathetic vibes at all....and I think it's no accident he's the only one that looks non-European.  I am only saying it now because I didn't really notice it until now until I really looked, but I don't think it's an accident.

Second, Templars like Cullen and Meredith aren't depicted as epic, selfless heroes. Constantly we see them bending under the pressures of their jobs and displaying misplaced hatred towards mages. We don't see them committing great atrocities because they're socially responsible, as their job demands. If you want a Templat who doesn't take his job seriously, look to Thrask, and where it got him.

Yes, but they look like classic Nordic Heros doing it, and we are clearly supposed to grieve for Thrask being a good man but fatally wrong-headed and he's the same classic type.  What I am saying is their voice and appearence go a long way to making things that otherwise would seem wrong seem (at first glance) plausible....and I believe that was done deliberately.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Deified Data wrote...

The Templars wear armor because its part of their uniform and their ethos. I wasn't aware that mages look like Arabs "to a person". Most NPCs are white because Thedas is an analogue of Europe.

Look at the Templars in Fereldan.  You see the gamut of appearences there.  Sure they wear the same uniform but otherwise look like a reasonable cross-section of people.  If anything we should see more of a cross-section in Kirkwall than Fereldan and we don't....so that argument doesn't fly.

-Polaris

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Kudos to you for sticking to your guns, even if you're not all-together right.

First, Alain isn't a "good" mage. He's one of the countless weaker-willed mages who go along with blood mage plots just to be a part of something. He would have become an abomination in Grace's company eventually, anyway. How long can a boy like that use blood magic before it destroys him?

Perhaps "good" wasn't the right word, but perhaps forgvable or at least non-evil would be better.  He is about the only mage we see outside the Gallows (certainly in Act 3) that seems to have any sympathetic vibes at all....and I think it's no accident he's the only one that looks non-European.  I am only saying it now because I didn't really notice it until now until I really looked, but I don't think it's an accident.

Second, Templars like Cullen and Meredith aren't depicted as epic, selfless heroes. Constantly we see them bending under the pressures of their jobs and displaying misplaced hatred towards mages. We don't see them committing great atrocities because they're socially responsible, as their job demands. If you want a Templat who doesn't take his job seriously, look to Thrask, and where it got him.

Yes, but they look like classic Nordic Heros doing it, and we are clearly supposed to grieve for Thrask being a good man but fatally wrong-headed and he's the same classic type.  What I am saying is their voice and appearence go a long way to making things that otherwise would seem wrong seem (at first glance) plausible....and I believe that was done deliberately.

-Polaris

I don't think race, or perception thereof, has much to do with who we chose to side with, whoever we chose to side with. I err on the side of the Templars because it's the responsible thing to do for Kirkwall as a whole - I wasn't swayed by the Templars shiny swords and armor.

I think it's fair to say that most people sympathize with mages, being lovers of freedom. The issue really has more to do with "oppressed vs. oppressors" than "minorities vs. whites". That is to say, when people side with mages, they do so out of a belief that mages should be free. When they side with the Templars, they do it because they believe mages cannot reasonably be trusted with their freedom. Perhaps not everyone thought about the final decision as I did - perhaps some are susceptible to thisform of suggestion - but i think it's highly unlikely.

[IanPolaris]

Rockpopple wrote...

Yeah, dude, Polaris, you just totally jumped the shark for me, sorry.

I mean how low of an opinion do you have not only of the BioWare devs, but of us. 

I don't know anyone who was so taken by Cullen's aryan good-looks that they found themselves nodding when he said things like "Mages are not people like you and me". I thought he was being a paranoid ass. 

I think there's a lot of projecting going on. You need to sort yourself out, fella.

No. I've put a great deal of thought into this.  The sad part is responses like this is why companies like Bioware can get away with what I am talkking about.  The act of bringing it up causes others to charge the messenger with racism without bothering to examine if the messenger is actually right.

Before any of you continue to condemn me, look at both sides and judge for yourself if I am right.  People DO subconsciously judge people differently just because of appearence and game companies know this (and it's been proven w/r/t age discrimination, thin vs fat, and many other issues).

-Polaris

[Girl on a Rock]

IanPolaris wrote...

 Alain winds up to be the only sane mage, but unlike all the Templars, he is made to look Middle-Eastern and thus appeal to a sub-conscious racism that too many people still have and make him seem even more untrustworthy and shifty than he really is.

-Polaris

Not for nothing, sir, but that idea seems pretty far fetched given Bioware's record for narrative and gameplay that defies stereotypes both in the game realm and the real world.

In fact, your statement made me more uneasy than anything Bioware has done, because it assumes

1. That Alain looks Middle Eastern.

Most of the mages I've seen dressed in clothes that are reminiscent of some Ali Babaness have been white, actually. Alain's facial features are actually not that Middle Eastern, and are actually decidedly ethnically ambiguous. He could be South Asian, he could be Central or South American, he could be American Indian - and his name is Alain, and he speaks with the same accent as all the other Kirkwallers in the game. Soo... yeah. 

2. Your statement assumes most people are biased against Middle Easterners.

I don't think this is true at all. I've defintiely seen some hints of xenophobia on these boards, no doubt, however, I think you're pushing it a little too far - and something about the way you express it, the way you so easily assume it, is troubling, if not outright offensive, to me.

Modifié par Girl on a Rock, 11 avril 2011 - 11:46 .

[IanPolaris]

Deified Data wrote...

I don't think race, or perception thereof, has much to do with who we chose to side with, whoever we chose to side with. I err on the side of the Templars because it's the responsible thing to do for Kirkwall as a whole - I wasn't swayed by the Templars shiny swords and armor.

Let me be crystal clear.  I do NOT think that most or even many people side with one side or another solely because of race.  However, I do think that Bioware (rather underhandedly IMHO) stacked the deck against the mages the choice of racial appearence and voice overs.  That's what I'm saying.

-Polaris

[Camenae]

So....what if Alain were an evil mage? Are you going to say, of course Bioware purposely made a bad guy look Arabic?

[KingNothing125]

I agreed with you that the deck is stacked against the mages... but that is easily demonstrated by the writing and the story arc. The idea that they used racist undertones to reinforce that seems a bit unnecessary and conspiratorial.

[IanPolaris]

Girl on a Rock wrote...
Not for nothing, sir, but that idea seems pretty far fetched given Bioware's record for narrative and gameplay that defies stereotypes both in the game realm and the real world.

In many ways DA2 is an abberation (and not a welcome one) of bioware's usual good record in games not only of this issue but others.  In DAO in a country that should have been even more ethinically uniform, we see a fair amount of variation in Templars (and everyone else).

In fact, your statement made me more uneasy than anything Bioware has done, because it assumes

1. That Alain looks Middle Eastern.

Most of the mages I've seen dressed in clothes that are reminiscent of some Ali Babaness have been white, actually. Alain's facial features are actually not that Middle Eastern, and are actually decidedly ethnically ambiguous. He could be South Asian, he could be Central or South American, he could be American Indian - and his name is Alain, and he speaks with the same accent as all the other Kirkwallers in the game. Soo... yeah. 

OK, I will be crass and direct.  Alain looks like one of the 'dusky complexion" as the British used to say, and in the old British Empire (even today) there is still lingering prejudice that way.  It's more obvious to me when he's about the only non-PC/PC-party mage we see outside the gallows that is even slightly sympathetic.  That tells me something...and its not good.  Again, do I think the appearence is a deciding factor?  No.  Do I think Bioware chose his appearence to stack the deck against him?  Yes, I'm afraid I do.

2. Your statement assumes most people are biased against Middle Easterners.

I don't think this is true at all. I've defintiely seen some hints of xenophobia on these boards, no doubt, however, I think you're pushing it a little too far - and something about the way you express it, the way you so easily assume it, is troubling, if not outright offensive, to me.

If you are of middleeastern descent, try getting on a plane post 9-11 and we'll talk.  It's very definately there at least in North America.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KingNothing125 wrote...

I agreed with you that the deck is stacked against the mages... but that is easily demonstrated by the writing and the story arc. The idea that they used racist undertones to reinforce that seems a bit unnecessary and conspiratorial.

It honestly didn't even occure to me until I took a close look at the protagonists.

Forget the supporting cast, let's compare Meridith and Orisino.  Let's restrict the discussion to just those two.  Do you really think that making Orisino look like Count Dracula, with the new Elven (and thus creepily inhuman) appearence with a weasel voice and three headed snake staff was an accident?

They WANT you to instinctively hate Orsino...even before he utters a single word!

-Polaris

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

I don't think race, or perception thereof, has much to do with who we chose to side with, whoever we chose to side with. I err on the side of the Templars because it's the responsible thing to do for Kirkwall as a whole - I wasn't swayed by the Templars shiny swords and armor.

Let me be crystal clear.  I do NOT think that most or even many people side with one side or another solely because of race.  However, I do think that Bioware (rather underhandedly IMHO) stacked the deck against the mages the choice of racial appearence and voice overs.  That's what I'm saying.

-Polaris

The deck was stacked to undermine many players' preconceived notion from Origins that mages are always the victim. Most people went into this game planning on siding with the mages, myself included, and changed my mind as they showed themselves unable to use their freedom responsibly. So, yes, I agree that the deck was stacked, but it has nothing to do with some underhanded, xenophobic agenda.

I find it hard to believe that a company that allowed any player to romance any LI, regardless of gender, would be small-minded enough to pander to racists. It's not only far-fetched, but absurd.

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

I agreed with you that the deck is stacked against the mages... but that is easily demonstrated by the writing and the story arc. The idea that they used racist undertones to reinforce that seems a bit unnecessary and conspiratorial.

It honestly didn't even occure to me until I took a close look at the protagonists.

Forget the supporting cast, let's compare Meridith and Orisino.  Let's restrict the discussion to just those two.  Do you really think that making Orisino look like Count Dracula, with the new Elven (and thus creepily inhuman) appearence with a weasel voice and three headed snake staff was an accident?

They WANT you to instinctively hate Orsino...even before he utters a single word!

-Polaris

I don't find the elven revamp to be "creepily inhuman", but quite charming. I found Orsino's voice to be quite pleasant - quiet, yet authoritative. I wanted to believe in his cause up until the end, when he betrayed me. So, no, your premise is wrong. I don't think I'm the only one that thought Orsino to be the more well-balanced of the two on my first playthrough.

[IanPolaris]

Deified Data wrote...
I find it hard to believe that a company that allowed any player to romance any LI, regardless of gender, would be small-minded enough to pander to racists. It's not only far-fetched, but absurd.

Sadly it's not.  I am not saying that Bioware is staffed by KKK rejects.  Quite the opposite really.  What I am saying is that they carefully designed the appearence of each character (especially Meridith and Orsino) to reinforce the impression they wanted to make and sadly even in the 21st century sub-conscious  (note the emphasis) racism is part of this.

Ad companies know this and ad companies at least today aren't racist.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 avril 2011 - 12:01 .

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

KingNothing125 wrote...

I agreed with you that the deck is stacked against the mages... but that is easily demonstrated by the writing and the story arc. The idea that they used racist undertones to reinforce that seems a bit unnecessary and conspiratorial.

It honestly didn't even occure to me until I took a close look at the protagonists.

Forget the supporting cast, let's compare Meridith and Orisino.  Let's restrict the discussion to just those two.  Do you really think that making Orisino look like Count Dracula, with the new Elven (and thus creepily inhuman) appearence with a weasel voice and three headed snake staff was an accident?

They WANT you to instinctively hate Orsino...even before he utters a single word!

-Polaris

I really don't see it. I was more like "I want to have his baby" when it comes to Orsino...

[Sabariel]

It's not difficult for me at all to support the mages, because I don't paint them all with the same brush.