484 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Orsino doesn't look like an untrustrly inhuman Dracula type to you just by looking at him? Really??? Not even with this three-snake staff??

-Polaris

[Octan92]

Deified Data wrote...
I don't find the elven revamp to be "creepily inhuman", but quite charming. I found Orsino's voice to be quite pleasant - quiet, yet authoritative. I wanted to believe in his cause up until the end, when he betrayed me. So, no, your premise is wrong. I don't think I'm the only one that thought Orsino to be the more well-balanced of the two on my first playthrough.

Agreed. This is why Orsino frustrates me. I was pulling for him and then he just gave in to despair.

Modifié par Octan92, 12 avril 2011 - 12:19 .

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deified Data wrote...
I find it hard to believe that a company that allowed any player to romance any LI, regardless of gender, would be small-minded enough to pander to racists. It's not only far-fetched, but absurd.

Sadly it's not.  I am not saying that Bioware is staffed by KKK rejects.  Quite the opposite really.  What I am saying is that they carefully designed the appearence of each character (especially Meridith and Orsino) to reinforce the impression they wanted to make and sadly even in the 21st century sub-conscious  (note the emphasis) racism is part of this.

Ad companies know this and ad companies at least today aren't racist.

-Polaris

Ask yourself this: what does Bioware have to gain by using subliminal messages to pick at the player's racist subconscious?

Also, why would bioware intentionally discourage siding with the mages when the game is obviously geared towards that conclusion?

[Rockpopple]

IanPolaris wrote...

No. I've put a great deal of thought into this.  The sad part is responses like this is why companies like Bioware can get away with what I am talkking about.  The act of bringing it up causes others to charge the messenger with racism without bothering to examine if the messenger is actually right.

Before any of you continue to condemn me, look at both sides and judge for yourself if I am right.  People DO subconsciously judge people differently just because of appearence and game companies know this (and it's been proven w/r/t age discrimination, thin vs fat, and many other issues).

-Polaris

Yeah, I think you put a little too much thought into this.

Also, I'm black. So I guess by your theory, I should have automatically felt either afraid or angry at those pretty white Templars, and I should have what, been okay with Alain's duskiness? Absurd. Unless you're going to claim that I'm only pretending to be black just so I can undercut your claims.

And again: I don't know of anyone, ANYONE who found themselves nodding their heads to Cullen's paranoid Mage-hate because he was an Aryan hunk.

You're being absurd.

And by the way, It thought Orsino looked and sounded much more reasonable than Meredith - which made it all the more shocking that he was a Necromancing asswipe, and his staff is cool.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 12 avril 2011 - 12:07 .

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...
OK, I will be crass and direct.  Alain looks like one of the 'dusky complexion" as the British used to say, and in the old British Empire (even today) there is still lingering prejudice that way.  It's more obvious to me when he's about the only non-PC/PC-party mage we see outside the gallows that is even slightly sympathetic.  That tells me something...and its not good.  Again, do I think the appearence is a deciding factor?  No.  Do I think Bioware chose his appearence to stack the deck against him?  Yes, I'm afraid I do.

-Polaris

All right, I'd rather not lower myself to your level, but let's play this game. What if Bioware's move to give Alain his specific appearance was a progressive move? He is, after all, the 'only good mage', trapped in a conflict between, according to you, a Nordic Valkyrie and Dracula.

Of course, believing as much wouldn't require one to be any more or less insane.

[KingNothing125]

I only hated Orsino when he wussed out and turned to blood magic even though Hawke and his friends were successfully holding the line against the templars. I had been a supporter to that point.

The fact that he was an elf just makes him more sympathetic initially. He's doubly prejudiced against, being an elf AND a mage... trying to defend himself from a blonde, blue-eyed Meredith. That's why I said "FFS, BioWare" when he turned.

Mage sympathizer Hawkes were led around by their noses the entire game. I kind of wish I had brought Bethany on the Deep Roads expedition so I could get her killed/inducted into the Grey Wardens so I could support the templar without her coming to harm. BioWare did an exceptionally poor job making the mage sympathizer position a defensible one. And racist undertones have very little to do with that.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 12 avril 2011 - 12:08 .

[Girl on a Rock]

IanPolaris wrote...


OK, I will be crass and direct.  Alain looks like one of the 'dusky complexion" as the British used to say, and in the old British Empire (even today) there is still lingering prejudice that way.  It's more obvious to me when he's about the only non-PC/PC-party mage we see outside the gallows that is even slightly sympathetic.  That tells me something...and its not good.  Again, do I think the appearence is a deciding factor?  No.  Do I think Bioware chose his appearence to stack the deck against him?  Yes, I'm afraid I do.

Well you certainly did go crass and direct. We'll just have to agree to disagree here, since my first thought when I see a brown person is not ALERT ALERT HE'S GOT A BOMB. But maybe that's because I, myself, am brown. But we'll get to that.

2. Your statement assumes most people are biased against Middle Easterners.

I don't think this is true at all. I've defintiely seen some hints of xenophobia on these boards, no doubt, however, I think you're pushing it a little too far - and something about the way you express it, the way you so easily assume it, is troubling, if not outright offensive, to me.

If you are of middleeastern descent, try getting on a plane post 9-11 and we'll talk.  It's very definately there at least in North America.

-Polaris

Sir, please refrain from making assumptions about my background. As it happens, my father is Algerian and my mother is Cuban, and I generally travel a lot. There was a lot of racism, a lot of profiling, and I wasn't able to get through one single airport security check - not one, not one single one - without them taking me aside and going through my bag by hand, sometimes patting me down - until 2007 or 2008. So yes, sir, I do know about racism and profiling and the way that people look at brown people differently.

However, it's not everywhere in North America. There are places where I've experienced it as a matter of policy and there are places I've experienced as a matter of local culture. I've found that most gamers that I know, at least, are not racists or xenophobes. Further, though of course there are gamers who are racist or xenophobic, and like I said, I suspect a small handful of them may be on these boards, that does not mean that Bioware is catering to that. I've never seen any indication that Bioware is catering to that, and if I had, I wouldn't play their games.

[IanPolaris]

I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt. Say what you like, but I am just restating what ad companies and promoters already know. That people do judge instinctively by appearence and voice and not always in ways that are even remotely politically correct.

I am calling Bioware out because at the very least with Orisno and Meridith it' pretty blatent.

-Polaris

[KingNothing125]

IanPolaris wrote...

Orsino doesn't look like an untrustrly inhuman Dracula type to you just by looking at him? Really??? Not even with this three-snake staff??

-Polaris

I used to play World of Warcraft. What kind of weapon you carry has little to do with your personality. I think the snake staff looked cool.

Modifié par KingNothing125, 12 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[IanPolaris]

KingNothing125 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Orsino doesn't look like an untrustrly inhuman Dracula type to you just by looking at him? Really??? Not even with this three-snake staff??

-Polaris

I used to play World of Warcraft. What kind of weapon you carry has little to do with your personality. I think the snake staff looked cool.

Given your background, then, you genuinely might not have noticed it.  I really didn't either until I looked at Orisino carefully along with the old dracula movies.  I DON'T think that was an accident.  I'll leave it at that. Obviously as I said before, for a lot of people, denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

-Polaris

[Girl on a Rock]

IanPolaris wrote...

I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt. Say what you like, but I am just restating what ad companies and promoters already know. That people do judge instinctively by appearence and voice and not always in ways that are even remotely politically correct.

I am calling Bioware out because at the very least with Orisno and Meridith it' pretty blatent.

-Polaris

Your condescension is awesome.

[Peer of the Empire]

Ian is right

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...

I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt. Say what you like, but I am just restating what ad companies and promoters already know. That people do judge instinctively by appearence and voice and not always in ways that are even remotely politically correct.

I am calling Bioware out because at the very least with Orisno and Meridith it' pretty blatent.

-Polaris

Between this gem, claiming to out-lore DG, and outright accusing Bioware of racism while asserting 'I'm right', I find your arrogance astounding.

[NedPepper]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Edit

IanPolaris wrote...
Alain winds up to be the only sane mage, but unlike all the Templars, he is made to look Middle-Eastern and thus appeal to a sub-conscious racism that too many people still have and make him seem even more untrustworthy and shifty than he really is.

Honestly, guy?

Yes honestly.  I am going to be rude and crass since no one else will and call out the elephant in the room.  Bioware clearly did not put a random generator to make the appearences of the NPCs.  They are specifically designed to illicit (whether we admit this or not) certain emotional responses from the viewer.....including sub-conscious racism which very much exists unfortunately to this day.

Do you really think it's an accident that the one good mage (other than Bethany who has partial PC armor) we see is of the "dusky complexion" as the 19th century British used to say?  Do you honestly think that wasn't done to illicit a certian subconscious reaction?  All the Templars we meet in DA2 (unlike DAO I might add) are all clearly Nordic and/or Northern European.

If you think this is an accident, I have some coastline in Montana I'd like to sell you.

-Polaris

I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

[Peer of the Empire]

nedpepper wrote...
I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

He's accusing the general population of harboring racist sentiments.

As far as the dusky mage goes, I happen to think that his duskiness is partly meant to elicit automatic priggishness and self-righteousness among certain players over taking care of the poor mages.  He did have a fat effeminate face too, lol, poor harmless guy

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 12 avril 2011 - 12:31 .

[Girl on a Rock]

The Baconer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I guess denial is not just a river in Egypt. Say what you like, but I am just restating what ad companies and promoters already know. That people do judge instinctively by appearence and voice and not always in ways that are even remotely politically correct.

I am calling Bioware out because at the very least with Orisno and Meridith it' pretty blatent.

-Polaris

Between this gem, claiming to out-lore DG, and outright accusing Bioware of racism while asserting 'I'm right', I find your arrogance astounding.

This.

Also, your username is maybe the best ever.

[IanPolaris]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

He's accusing the general population of harboring racist sentiments.

As far as the dusky mage goes, I happen to think that his duskiness is partly meant to elicit automatic priggishness and self-righteousness among certain players over taking care of the poor mages.  He did have a fat effeminate face too, lol, poor harmless guy

Exactly what I was trying to get at.  I am not trying to say that Bioware or all gamers are racist.  I am saying that in a western audience, there will (still unfortunately) be some subconcious racist overtones that I think Bioware (and Ad companies do this all the time as well) is deliberately using to further subconciously stack the deck even more against siding with the mages.

It's sad that this is almost impossible to discuss in a civilized manner.

-Polaris

[stobie]

Octan92 wrote...

Deified Data wrote...
I don't find the elven revamp to be "creepily inhuman", but quite charming. I found Orsino's voice to be quite pleasant - quiet, yet authoritative. I wanted to believe in his cause up until the end, when he betrayed me. So, no, your premise is wrong. I don't think I'm the only one that thought Orsino to be the more well-balanced of the two on my first playthrough.

Agreed. This is why Orsino frustrates me. I was pulling for him and then he just gave in to despair.

Oh, me, too. I was very fond of him, & to see him Turn Bad was disappointing - yet good, because otherwise, it would be so heavily 'mage only' for me as to pose no choice at all.  I love the elf revamp, too, especially the voices. The nasally Origins Dalish voices just pained me - these are great.  

I can't begin to see blaming Bioware for prejudice, in game and certainly not out!  They've made an amazingly balanced game, for us to put 'our stuff.'    I don't see the mages as a real life race AT ALL - they're in a situation, which could easily be reversed, and be Tevinter in style.  I don't see them as good or bad inherently.  I just found the creep-factor way higher with the bad Templars, whereas bad mages just seemed either horrific or insane.  There's a Tranquil mage walking around the Gallows who was apparently in love with another mage, & now says, "and now I'm Alrik's,'    There's a lot of that.  I assume, had the story been set in Mage-Powered Tevinter, it would be the other way around.     Since it's in Kirkwall, the creepy-abuse seems to be more Templar.  Granted, you do see more good Templars or at least, sane-ish Cullen ones. 

Modifié par stobie, 12 avril 2011 - 12:37 .

[NedPepper]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

nedpepper wrote...
I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

He's accusing the general population of harboring racist sentiments.

As far as the dusky mage goes, I happen to think that his duskiness is partly meant to elicit automatic priggishness and self-righteousness among certain players over taking care of the poor mages.  He did have a fat effeminate face too, lol, poor harmless guy

I can't have this debate.  It doesn't fit in any sane way that Bioware was making a social statement, or some kind of racial offense by making Alain dark skinned.  This thread just got derailed so horribly, the government might need to offer finacial aid to the victims. 

[Rifneno]

Eh.  I disagree with his assertion that Bioware made Alain look middle eastern for an intentional racial reaction but he's not wrong that subconsciously there's some degree of racism.  Studies have shown that babies react better to people of their own race.  It doesn't make you a horrible person to have basic subconscious reactions to things, it's only when they're consciously and deliberately acted upon.  He's not accusing anyone of burning crosses on lawns, he's stating a basic scientific theory.

[IanPolaris]

nedpepper wrote...
I think you're reaching here.  You're trying to find something that is not there.  This is the same game that allows you to have same sex relationships.  You're really going to accuse Bioware of being racially insensitive?  Really?

I am not saying that at all. I am saying that Bioware is taking advantage of subconsious (and obviously senstive) racial undertones and subtext that still exist within Western Culture to further imply that mages are bad by selective use of voice and appearence.  Your local ad company does the same thing fwiw.

-Polaris