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[Rheia]

thegrimfandango wrote...

I'm intrigued now, any good tips on rivalling Aveline & Sebastian? (I've tried prodding him to return to Starkhaven, but it never seems to be enough, probably because I don't use him enough)
Also rivalling Fenris without being pro-slavery? I alway wind up being his best buddy even though I havn't done an anti-mage run.
I don't think I've even considered rivalling Varric at all, it seems like it would be difficult - he's so easygoing.
I've friended Isabela but not romanced her - planning that for my next run - I'm going to rival as many companions as an angry mage (possibly pro-templar) as I can without being ridiculously inconsistent. What do people prefer - the friendship or rival romance?

I don't usually bring Aveline with me, so I can't speak for a lot of quests that factor her friendship/rivalry in, but generally speaking, she is pro-law, anti-slavery, pro-kirkwall safery kind of girl.

I rivaled her the first playthrough without much trouble by mercy-killing Wesley myself (+10), accepting some shady jobs for +5 here and there (bait and switch comes to mind... just don't birng her to meet Fenris if you plan to volunteer to kill slavers without payment, she'll hit you with friendship), and then asking her to keep her job in the office once she is guardcaptain. I also recall accepting a quest from the dwarf to kill Tal-Vashosh and telling him something like 'why not, there may be profit in it', would net you her Rivalry, while 'I'll do it for Kirkwall' will net friendship.

After that, it's gifts and personal quests that you can gain rivalry just by not walking on eggshells around her issues. I see a lot of people say that rivalry path with Aveline is just about being mean/douch to her. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

The way I see it, Aveline is always stright and narrow with you, she doesn't bull**** you and doesn't coddle even when she is being protective. You can also return the favor. When she throws the shield (a gift) you can question her dramatics instead of being sorry. Speaking to her directly usually yelds rivalry in her personal quests without Hawke sounding mean-spirited, imho. Except for the last quest, where agressive approach is about questioning her ability to be a good captain on the basics of unfounded accusations. But there are still ways to get rivalry on that quest without doing that.

Also, a small observation, during qunari invasion, Avline was on the rivalry path and I keept her in my party after she talks about getting help, and I got + rivlary. If I selected other party members and let her go to the keep, I didn't.

---------------------------

Fenris is very easy to rival without being pro-slaver if you are also a mage. He hits you with some rivalry points right off the start. Consequent conversation in the mansion can yeld a large amount of rivalry if you take a stand that you don't want to return to your old life. That's easy 20-30+ points right there, depending how harsh a dialog you've picked.

Taking him to the gallows first time you go there, will open up a dialog where you can argue that not all mages are bad earning another +10, if I'm right.

Taking him along to pick up Merril, and awknowledging that her magic have opened the barrier is another +10 or 15.

Wayward son quest also yelds +10 rivalry off the bat when you say you want to help Arianni. Trying to reason with Feynriel's captives out of fear they'll kill the hostage has Fenris intitiate that battle with +10 rivalry and you
still get to slaughter slavers. Sending Feynriel to the Dalish is another +10. As a bonus, during that quest you'll find that Thrask (the templar) daughter was an apostate, and if you keep his secret,  you'll get another +10 rivalry.

After he's on rivalry path, his gifts and personal quests are slanted to yeld you rivalry too.

I generally have him at rull rivalry in act I or beginning of act II right away already though, so some anti-slaver +friendship actions aren't really hurtful to the progression. However, there are some ways to avoid friendship, while NOT being pro-slaver.  For example, threatening Danzig yourself instead of letting Fenris phasepunch him for information during wayward son quest avoids +friendship. Your threat fails, you still fight and kill the slaver, and loot the location of the caves.

Hope this helps   However, if you decide to go pro-templar, I feel friendship path with Fenris is a lot more honest. I actually don't think it's possbile to rival him that way, since you'll pretty much be of the like mind.

P.S. And I am a very bif fun of rivalry romance paths. In my personal opinion they are more rewarding. Both Anders and Fenris awknowledge their faults on those paths, and I felt the romance itself was more poignant because you grow to care for each other despite your disagreements. The fact that Fenris will refuse to abandon you even if you side with the mages despite him clearly voicing that you make a mistake, or Merril agreeing to stand by your side if you side against mages is very touching.  Anders' on the rivalry path when convinced to side with the templars is a damn tearjerker too.

(If you plan to do Anders rivlary romance, however, wait for 1.03 when his bugs are fixed so you can get a proper ending!!! It's not fiering currently ) 

Modifié par Rheia, 18 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[thegrimfandango]

Rheia wrote...


P.S. And I am a very bif fun of rivalry romance paths. In my personal opinion they are more rewarding. Both Anders and Fenris awknowledge their faults on those paths, and I felt the romance itself was more poignant because you grow to care for each other despite your disagreements. The fact that Fenris will refuse to abandon you even if you side with the mages despite him clearly voicing that you make a mistake, or Merril agreeing to stand by your side if you side against mages is very touching.  Anders' on the rivalry path when convinced to side with the templars is a damn tearjerker too.

(If you plan to do Anders rivlary romance, however, wait for 1.03 when his bugs are fixed so you can get a proper ending!!! It's not fiering currently ) 

I do prefer the rival romance for Merrill definitely, I'm intrigued by trying Isabela's, but I think I might go friendship just so she's not moaning at me for being boring the rest of the game . I'm not yet tempted to try Fenris or Anders, I've not yet gone for the guys in any Bioware game, it's still too novel and refreshing to actually be able to play gayHawke

[Rheia]

Isabella is one of the companions I prefer friendship path with, true She makes a great friend, imho. Same with Varrick.

Maybe sometime down the road I'll try it, though since I think rivalry relationships are very well written for the others I tried on that path.

[berelinde]

Isabela's rivalry path was fun, and I liked how you could get her to admit she was selfish, but I had the same problem with her that I had with every rivalry except Merrill's. It changed nothing.

In Merrill's, now that the Act 3 dialogues are fixed, you can see that your tough love for her has done some good. She smashes the mirror and moves on with her life. She is still a blood mage because it isn't the kind of thing you can turn off once it's turned on, but she promises not to consort with demons anymore. So you made a difference in her life.

Isabela admits that you were right the whole time and admits to being selfish, so I guess that's kind of satisfying, but if you befriend her all the way to 100%, she does that anyway. One way or another, she grows up all by herself. And if you go the friendship route, you don't have to have her grump at you the whole time.

Nothing you do affects Fenris. He still blames magic for everything that went wrong in his life, even if it was his own fault. OK, the rivalry romance scenes with him were hot. In some ways, it seemed as if they were meant to be approached from rivalry rather than friendship. So no net change, either way.

I've tried doing a romance with Anders on the rivalry path and it makes no sense. I am unable to complete it, and it has nothing to do with the lack of a fix. In a full rivalry, Anders admits that he was wrong to allow Justice in, but he did not need Hawke to tell him that. He lives it every day. And there is nothing he can do to reverse the process, so all Hawke is doing is browbeating him. And friendly Hawke actually seems to help him more than rival Hawke. Justice bursts out more in rivalry than in friendship, so Hawke's nagging does not seem to have much purpose except to make Hawke (and possibly Fenris) feel superior. Anders as a rival is just as screwed at the end of the day, except that he doesn't even have one person to hold his hand and tell him it's OK to make mistakes. And that seems to be the point of a romance with Anders. One stable thing in Anders' life.

[sonoko]

berelinde wrote...

I've tried doing a romance with Anders on the rivalry path and it makes no sense. I am unable to complete it, and it has nothing to do with the lack of a fix. In a full rivalry, Anders admits that he was wrong to allow Justice in, but he did not need Hawke to tell him that. He lives it every day. And there is nothing he can do to reverse the process, so all Hawke is doing is browbeating him. And friendly Hawke actually seems to help him more than rival Hawke. Justice bursts out more in rivalry than in friendship, so Hawke's nagging does not seem to have much purpose except to make Hawke (and possibly Fenris) feel superior. Anders as a rival is just as screwed at the end of the day, except that he doesn't even have one person to hold his hand and tell him it's OK to make mistakes. And that seems to be the point of a romance with Anders. One stable thing in Anders' life.

 
That's the reason I can't complete Anders' rivalry romance too.

Of all the companions he is the only one I feel wrong rivalmancing. When rivalmancing Merril, Isabela, Fenris you make them acknowledge their shortcomings and help them to move forward.  But choosing  rivalmance path for
 Anders you make his life more miserable than it already is.
 
 

[Ryzaki]

Hawke isn't just browbeating Anders. Hawke's allowing Anders' mind to stay seperate from Justice. Justice pops out more because his hold is slipping on Anders. Anders is tormented more because he sees the demon he made his friend and how he's truly an abomination.  He stops seeing in black and white on the rival path. 

Basically Hawke is telling him the brutal truth of what he is in hopes that Anders has a real wake up call. He has some on the friendship mance but he goes right back to listening to Justice as though he *hadn't* just almost killed an innocent girl and that his so called goal was being ignored. The brutal truth isn't everyone's cup of tea but it isn't browbeating for no reason.  

And Hawke doesn't know Anders and Justice can never be seperated. If that was the case Hawke wouldn't have bought that Tevinter potion lie.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 avril 2011 - 05:11 .

[hoorayforicecream]

berelinde wrote...

Isabela admits that you were right the whole time and admits to being selfish, so I guess that's kind of satisfying, but if you befriend her all the way to 100%, she does that anyway. One way or another, she grows up all by herself. And if you go the friendship route, you don't have to have her grump at you the whole time.

I don't know about this... I saw Isabela's growth is a subtle difference. If you go the friendship route, she stays and helps for Hawke. She's doing it because she loves/cares for/respects Hawke as a person and friend, not because it's the right thing to do. When you talk to her as a friend (but not lover) at the farewell conversation, she brings up the things Hawke has done for her, and talks about how she won't run this time. If she goes the rival route, she does it because it's the right thing to do. It's a subtle difference to be sure, but I think it's an important one.

[jayofmaya]

DragonRacer wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

So, I've been doing a couple playthroughs and watching some others on youtube, and comparing and contrasting Friendship and Rivalry.  Companions seem to, for the most part, grow more as people when you take them down the Rivalry path.  Except for Varric.  Anders seems to recognize Justice's influence towards the end, Fenris confronts his rage, Merrill has somebody to keep her in check when she rushes headlong into demonic danger, Isabela develops a conscience, Sebastian faces up to his responsibilities, etc.

Varric just gets petty and passive aggressive.  What's more, to build him towards Rivalry, you have to be a total turd sandwich.  Nobody really learns anything, they just decide to tolerate each other.  Which contrasts the Friendship path, being one of emotional growth and totally awesome bromance.

I could be convinced otherwise and wanted to hear some dissenting opinions.  For some of the companions I'm still on the fence, but I'm still leaning towards always favoring rivalry.  For instance, with Aveline, usually there is nothing healthy about provoking a fist fight with your friends, but it seems to be the way to confront her on her pride.

Sebastian always sort ends up a little bit of a mess there at the end but I blame Justice/Vengeance.

Plus, Rivalry bonuses are usually better, IMO.

Varric, apparently, is my anti-rival. Because it's coming across as very hard to rival him, for me.

Explanation:

My first Hawke was dominantly sarcastic/charming, with some angelic good thrown in. She had a total BFF relationship with Varric. Like, 100% friendship near beginning of Act 2. Sealed the deal when we spared Bartrand and put him up in a nice sanitarium. Varric seemed at peace with that. Good times.

Now I'm playing my aggressive Hawke. All red answers, all the time. To everyone (except for Merrill, who he rival-manced, but still mostly gives "angelic/oak leaf" response to). He's... not a complete turd sandwich, but he's definitely very blunt and not the, uh, nicest person. He's pretty much rivaling EVERYBODY (except Fenris, who apparently likes the red responses and agrees with this Hawke's "mages are ew" viewpoint, so Mr. Glow Boy is 100% friendship... pretty much total opposite of my first playthrough, where he haaaaaated myyyy guuuuuts for being a mage lover - literally, as the case with Anders may be  ... and pretty much hissed and spat like a cat anytime Hawke opened her mouth).

He'd managed to get Varric about half-way down the rivalry path by middle of Act 2. I thought, "Hey, getting somewhere!" Then, I did his "Family Matters" quest last night. I figured -- being already well down the rivalry path -- that picking the total opposite options from Hawke # 1 would net more rivalry. So, Aggressive Hawke totally pushes Varric towards killing Bartrand. That netted +15 FRIENDSHIP. Had a talk about it outside the house and said, basically, (red response) "You did what you had to do." Good job murdering your brother in vengeance. Netted another +15 FRIENDSHIP and put me right back square in the neutral middle of the friendship/rivalry bar.

All that work for almost two acts just to try and reach 50% rivalry... totally wiped away with two actions. And actions I figured Varric WOULDN'T like.

What is this I don't even? 

Like I said, Varric is my anti-rival. Totally un-rival-able. You can try, but when you least except it, he will throw ninja friendship points at you and go back to at least neutral. My mind is officially blown.

But the first time round you must have had Anders with you? You should have done the same thing then opted to kill Bartrand. Varric changes his mind about killing him when he thinks it's possible to help him. If you don't have Anders then you must opt to save Bartrand to ****** off Varric. It's easy to ****** him off further in the conversations after that.

[jayofmaya]

ALL my characters (Except my dick of a brother) LOVE me, they all have full friendship. It's easy to achieve with a party of Anders, Aveline and Isabella (Apart from when Anders really loses it). Then the next party should be Merril, Anders and Varric. Fenris must be accompanied with Aveline and Varric otherwise he disaproves all the time 'cause he's an extremist jack ass. As for Carver, there is only so long I can keep playing along to his spoiled little games, so I just make him leave and join the templars usually.

[Dabrikishaw]

tmp7704 wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Varric just gets petty and passive aggressive.  What's more, to build him towards Rivalry, you have to be a total turd sandwich.  Nobody really learns anything, they just decide to tolerate each other. 

Varric is simply mentally healthy and free of any obsessions that tend to define the other characters. So to a player who gets a kick out of molding personalities of other people and "fixing" them in accordance with their own idea what's "right" there's nothing there to "work" with.

Personally, i'm rather disappointed none of the rivalry routes apparently ends with the companion getting fed up and telling Hawke to just **** off and quit bothering them like, ever.

Hm, intresting observation.

[Corker]

I thought that if you rivaled Aveline, she returns to Ferelden in the end? Like the rival path actually prevents her character growth. She never puts down roots in Kirkwall, never adopts the place as her home - just spins her wheels for seven years. That's so cold and alone and sad.

Although punching Hawke is pretty awesome.

[berelinde]

Corker wrote...

I thought that if you rivaled Aveline, she returns to Ferelden in the end? Like the rival path actually prevents her character growth. She never puts down roots in Kirkwall, never adopts the place as her home - just spins her wheels for seven years. That's so cold and alone and sad.

Although punching Hawke is pretty awesome.

If she punches Hawke, she has overcome her limits, accepted her past, and is resolved to make Kirkwall her home. It's only when she doesn't punch Hawke that she leaves.

Aveline never leaves the party. Even if she says that she's leaving to go back to Ferelden, she says that she will stay around until the current crisis is resolved. But if you accuse her of being a coward, things really get interesting. She punches Hawke (who lies unresisting on the ground, letting her get her rage out of her system), she pulls him up, and she thanks him for goading her into venting. She needed it. Her sense of failure was a prison for her, trapping her with survivor's guilt. Hawke forced her to break her way out herself. I loved it.

[Corker]

berelinde wrote...

If she punches Hawke, she has overcome her limits, accepted her past, and is resolved to make Kirkwall her home. It's only when she doesn't punch Hawke that she leaves.

Ah, okay!  I never managed to rival her myself - even when I didn't do her personal quests and was as big of a jerk as I could be to her, I still only managed to stay in the grey zone - I've only seen some of the YouTube vids.  I knew she could return to Ferelden and I knew she could punch Hawke, but I didn't realize they were on mutual exclusive resolution paths.

Interesting that the rival path can split like that at the end.

[berelinde]

Corker wrote...

Ah, okay!  I never managed to rival her myself - even when I didn't do her personal quests and was as big of a jerk as I could be to her, I still only managed to stay in the grey zone - I've only seen some of the YouTube vids.  I knew she could return to Ferelden and I knew she could punch Hawke, but I didn't realize they were on mutual exclusive resolution paths.

Interesting that the rival path can split like that at the end.

I've only rivaled her once myself. I was doing a mercenary, aggressive Hawke and I felt that he shouldn't be on good terms with the law. It was easier to rival her than you'd think. It helps if you play a character who likes money, isn't afraid of crime, and is really big on mage freedom. Even then, you have to leave her behind on a lot of quests... assuming that you don't like exploiting children (Pryce or Lia) or being a first-rate bastard. Believe it or not, doing her quests is a good way to get rivalry. All you have to do is expose the excuses she makes about her petty shortcomings, such as her lack of confidence in herself during The Longer Road. You will probably not be able to get up to 100% rivalry until Act 3, but bringing her (but not Isabela) along on Night Terrors and dealing with her guard yourself in Offered and Lost will get you quite a bit. You'll also gain loads during your confrontation with the Arishok, if you're still short.

Anyway, I didn't expect to like her rivalry path... but I did. I wonder what will happen if I attempt to rival Varric. As somebody else said, about the only way to gain serious rivalry with him is to be a complete turd.