59 réponses à ce sujet

[Perfect-Kenshin]

[quote]AreleX wrote...

[quote]SuicidialBaby wrote...

Bro, if you were worth a 10th of my time I would show you exactly how short-minded your pathetic, half-assed breakdowns are when compared to actual knowledge of each character's capabilities. Lame is your definition of ultimate, nevermind your grasp on this game.[/quote]

I generally frown on forum dickery, but I laughed pretty hard at this.

[quote]Also, Rogues are not weak or underpowered or nerfed at all. Before you try and make a case, or counter argument, I have an entire guide, and a bunch of videos that directly prove you're wrong.[/quote]Here's the problem. You're assuming that because I claim that rogues are nerfed, they are underpowered or weak. I don't think this at all. I managed to do just fine with Rogue Hawke. As I said in another post, this game didn't challenge  me in my recent playthrough. That being said, I've also played Origins and know I had a much easier time using a rogue in that game than I did in this one. Let me remind you that that game also had threat management mechanics. The ner****e comes in the form of reliance on two new features: Fortitude and Cross class combo'ing. In order to maximize on damage effectiveness, you don't want to be pumping anything into strength, This proves to be a problem though as there will be many times where your rogue is going to be getting stunned, regardless of threat management (i.e. archers spawn on the other side of the field, ignore your tank and go straight for your rogues/mages). Now although this annoying, you can deal with it (again, I don't know where people are getting the idea that I've said you can't).

I'm sure you could post videos. There's no need to post them though as I never said anything indicating that it was impossible to play as a rogue. I think it's possible to do well regardless of your build in this game.

[quote]Judging the ENTIRE strength of a class based on their soloing ability is a fool's errand, especially when DA2 has CCCs, which should really be called 'THIS IS A PARTY BASED GAME, WITH GAMEPLAY MECHANICS BUILT AROUND PARTY BASED PLAY, USE IT OR FAIL'.[/quote]Um, I ranked Merrill, A MAGE, as being the best companion in the game. Mages suck on their own. Don't get me wrong. I think it's possible to solo this game with any character, but obviously, this is easier to do with some classes than others. Nonetheless, I ranked Merrill highly based on the paradigm of 'party based game.'

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 07:31 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

ezrafetch wrote...

To create a tier list when Hawke's build is so flexible implies ignorance of the nature of the whole, because there isn't one way to play the game. Even on Nightmare. There are countless 3 Mages + 1 Varric videos out there now, 2 Rogues + 2 Mages, and so on and so forth. I just hit Act 2 and am running 3 Archers, 1 Anders to great effect. I see the intent of separating companions into tiers, but the way you design Hawke, or the way you want to build your party will automatically dictate who is in what tier. Which, overall, means that an "ultimate tier list" is relatively useless because you'd have 100000000+ tier lists to accommodate every Hawke build out there.

Not at all. To again use Smash Bros as an example, let me point to its tier list  (unlike mine, gathered based on empircal data collected through tournaments). Now obviously, there isn't going to be a single person (well maybe a few, but by no means the majority) that thinks there's only one way to play Smash Bros. Nonetheless, there are better ways than others, if we define better as something we can objectively measure. Now obviously, I haven't objectively measured my companions in this thread, but believe that if I were to gather data from each of my playthroughs, create some scale measuring both kill contibution and survivability of the characters, I could can make my case objective.

Regardless, given how easy it is to create tier lists in other games based off a limited amount of information, I'm certain the same could be done for Dragon Age and that you'd have to reconsider this notion of 1,000,000 tier list upon seeing how easy it is to rank one character above another despite numerous playstyles.

All that being said, none of this caters to the purpose of the thread. I'm not trying to collect data or conduct research. This thread is discuss how utilizable players felt the characters were respecitvely. If you want to complicate it to the point of mentioning considering specific Hawke builds, you're more than free to do so. I have no problem entertaining such posts. Hell, if it'll get discussion going, I encourage them.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[aethernox]

ezrafetch, that's not necessarily true. It is entirely possible to create tiers by comparing what each companion does in their respective roles. For example, while it is true that not every Hawke will want a ranged rogue, you can still compare the two ranged rogues for those characters who *do* want one.

My tier list would look something like this:

Tier 1:
Anders:
Even though his support spells are ostensibly weaker than Hawke's, the combination of Swift Justice and the Martyr bug make Anders into the best support character in DA2, bar none. The fact that he is the only mage with access to the Creation tree for two thirds of the game does quite a bit for him, as well. His only major weakness is his inability to cast offensive spells while under the effect of Panacea. Panacea and similar effects can be difficult to properly script via tactics, meaning that it is often necessary to use Anders as a pure-support character without significantly increasing the time spent pausing the game.

Merrill:
Her unique access to both the Primal and Entropy trees make her an excellent damage/secondary support character. Chain Lightning and Paralyzing Prison give her excellent burst damage capabilities that can be exploiting in most party compositions. The ease of applying Stagger does a lot for those abilities, as well. Her access to Blood Magic, plus her unique independence from Willpower (Merrill, unlike Hawke, doesn't have to worry about equipping end-game Mage armor), gives her a freedom to use multiple sustains that would clog down standard casters, while making her surprisingly resilient to damage.


Varric:
Oh, Varric. Not only do you bring significant amounts of gold and experience to the party, your unique specialization makes you half-decent at ranged DPS. You lack Assassinate, which is a shame, but you might even be a better auto-attacker than Hawke. Bianca allows you to jump in and out of the party at any time, and now have to worry about scrounging for a new, level-appropriate weapon, and it gives absolutely sick damage bonuses for whatever runes you slot into it. Your armor has more rune slots than anyone else's, and since companion armor gives the best Rune of Fortune return (+10% gold found, per rune), you're integral to gold optimization. Access to Goad, Armistice, Chameleon's Breath, and similar support effects actually let you pull your weight on Nightmare.

Tier 2:
Aveline:
If you can get past the fact that her Jaw is more masculine than a male Hawke's, Aveline is quite a useful character. She gets decent damage from her weapon tree, but she can't spread stagger as well as Fenris can. However, she still gets Cleave, plus a plethora of immunities and one of the few good Disorient CCCs. Her specialization is invaluable for semi-solo games, and it's just generally useful elsewhere. The primary sustain, Immovable, is something of a trap, though. With Goad support and Taunt, she makes an excellent party backbone.

Bethany:
Damn. Bethany might just have the best skill selection of any of the mages. Primal is a great tree, but Bethany gets access to Arcane, Creation, and Entropy, which is just fantastic. With Creation and Arcane, Bethany is almost as good as soaking up damage as Anders, but she doesn't have the -40% mana from Panacea, and she can cast offensive debuffs. Even without a specialization, she's an excellent party member. It's a shame that she's absent from the majority of the game. She's more than capable of replacing Anders for the final fight for those who both relied on him and sided with the Templars end-game. Her personality, as an added plus, is one of the few in this game that I find to be entirely likeable.

Fenris:
While he isn't quite as tanky as Aveline, he's significantly better at drawing threat and spreading Staggers. The difference between the two characters is relatively minor. Fenris is slightly more offensive, while Aveline gets extra rune slots and is tankier. His specialization is one of the least inspired in DA2, considering that every ability is ripped from a warrior specialization unique to Hawke. He's like a miniature, pointy-eared Hawke, and he's very useful to Rogue/Mage Hawke party compositions.

Tier 3:
Carver:
Carver is strictly worse than Fenris. Warriors and Rogues simply ban their opposed weapon school, while Mages lose a random Magic talent tree. Since Weapon Talent Trees are effectively mutually exclusive, and Spell Trees are not, Bethany is actually useful, whereas Carver is not. He's also a total dick.

Isabela:
Like Varric, she has access to the helpful Rogue support abilities. However, she lacks his damage capabilities, all of the tactical advantages associated with having Bianca and being Ranged, and her specialization is a variant of Duelist. Duelist is a decent specialization, but it's practically useless without Assassin. She gets an AoE stun with decent damage, but it isn't useful on Nightmare, and she lacks the survivability to make proper use of her off-tanking talents. Also, she makes life hell on 2-handed Hawke/Fenris/Force Mage Hawke/Elemental Hawke, since she practically can't endure any friendly-fire at all. She just... doesn't have much going for her, not to mention that she has a highly frustrating Friendship bug, something she shares with the next companion.

Sebastian:
The Exiled Prince is the best of his tier, but he just isn't quite good enough to reach Tier 2. He has a useful, unique specialization, but several of the abilities are difficult to use either in combination with eachother or by way of tactics programming. Wounding Arrow is good, but properly using it via tactics is difficult, and it obsoletes the other "Do-something-based-on-chain-length Arrow." He gets Decoy and a few decent passives, but nothing that compares to Bianca's Song. His general inferiority to Varric, coupled with his Friendship bug, leaves him as a decent but relatively undesirable companion. The fact that you can equip him with actual bows is both good and bad for Sebastian, so I'll leave that out.

Disclaimers:
My opinion, duh. Based on experiences on Nightmare with each class.
Within tiers, companions are sorted alphabetically, not by power.
The fact that each tier contains three companions was totally coincidental. The tiers were nearly sorted as 4/3/2 and 3/4/2, as well.

Modifié par aethernox, 11 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

[quote]aethernox wrote...

It's true that you lose nothing by using him. I just... stopped using him after Act I, because he wasn't good enough. He does something, yes, but it doesn't justify ranking him higher than all of the other companions. Hell, even mentioning him here is pointless. Comparing him to other companions is pointless, since he doesn't take up a party slot. His paragraph should be removed. [/quote]He can sponge an insane amount of damage. I've watched the dog take stealth assassinations from multiple enemies assassins at once, only to keep going. The way I see it, more time for Fenris (I'm speaking from the perspective of my recent playthrough, as I was a rogue, not a warrior) to dish out damage and increase his attack speed and more time to eliminate the assassin's rather than worrying about healing from their attacks or preventing them

[quote]Anders seriously kicks ass, even if his character is somewhat frustrating. Martyr lets him cast Heals roughly three times as often as any other character, not to mention Barriers or Hastes.[/quote]Again, I haven't used martyr as I thought that required Vengeance. I didn't really even finding myself needing Anders unless I was in a hurry and wanted to get through the game without having to pause alot. With what I know about Martyr (not needing Vengeance).

[quote]The thing is, all of Fenris' abilities are worse versions of equivalent Hawke abilities. He gets Fervor, yeah, and Blood Frenzy. But he doesn't get Sacrificial Frenzy. He gets Spirit Pulse, but it's strictly worse than Holy Smite. His unique sustained plus his passive gives 15% less Magic Resistance than Annulment, and it costs him stamina. The crit chance is okay, but it doesn't even come close to making up for his lack of Barrage/Sacrificial Frenzy. The reason that I mentioned the Templar spec is because that is what Fenris is: weakened portions of each Hawke spec. But, by having talents that are so generalized in nature, he lacks the usefulness that a specialized Reaver/Berserker or Reaver/Templar Hawke would have.[/quote]]

[/quote]Alright, well what about when Hawke isn't a warrior? What do you think of Fenris then?

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Cyakura wrote...

DW rouge nerfed??? You are seriously mistaken... I have no idea how u speced your rouge. With mine I taked out Arishok ( sorry if mispelled) solo duel with out any issue.. I do not even have to even kite him for long as with other classes..

I took out the Arishok too as a DW Rogue. I would've done it using Archery, but the battle is lame enough in not getting to go all mano y mano with Arishok like in the trailer.

My most favorite DW spec is DW- assassin and stealth = I think it might be overpowered.. Even played as DW - Duelist - stealth and same thing.. Amazing dps.. most enemies drop before you have to use even a potion.

I felt the same way in DAO about my Rogue, except there was no such thing as fortitude and CCCs weren't a feature, thus not something which you have a strong incentive to use.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Cyakura wrote...

Yes also I agree your title is insulting in a way.

Apologies. Not my intent!

[aethernox]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

He can sponge an insane amount of damage. I've watched the dog take stealth assassinations from multiple enemies assassins at once, only to keep going. The way I see it, more time for Fenris (I'm speaking from the perspective of my recent playthrough, as I was a rogue, not a warrior) to dish out damage and increase his attack speed and more time to eliminate the assassin's rather than worrying about healing from their attacks or preventing them

I was two-hitting him in my Warrior playthrough. Every time I used Mighty Blow he died. You also have to kind of luck out to get assassins to target him, since he has no way of drawing aggro on his own.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Alright, well what about when Hawke isn't a warrior? What do you think of Fenris then?

That was what I thought about Fenris when Hawke isn't a warrior. When Hawke is a warrior, my feelings about Fenris amount to "Don't use him." He's a good companion, I was just replying to your summary of Fenris in which you stated that Fenris was better than Hawke at something. I strongly suggest those who like balanced party compositions use either Fenris or Aveline, and I didn't mean for my summary of the elf to be taken as negative.

Modifié par aethernox, 11 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[AreleX]

1. Arrow of Slaying was worthless unless used under FAR more specific conditions than 'Enemy is Brittle. Press button. Enemy dies.'

2. Name me a class in DA2 that DOESN'T rely on CCCs for consistently fast clears. If you say Warrior, I'm going to slap you. Every single one needs some modicum of support (be they heals, CCCs, buffs, etc). for it.

3. I didn't get 'constantly knocked around' at any point in the game, stealth and good companion use provided me with everything I needed before gaining knockback immunity.

4. Etched Ring of the Twins is available to purchase at any point in Act II that you clear the Nexus Golem's Gauntlet.

5. If you acknowledge this being a party based game, how can you call Rogues 'nerfed'? Are mages nerfed because they can't put their party on hold and destroy the entire battlefield in one rain of stupid any more? No, they aren't, they simply need companions for optimal use, because that's how this game works.

DA2 is not Origins, it is its own game. Your problems seem to lie more with the game mechanics than the Rogue class itself, which is fair, if you're of that opinion. However, to say that something is 'nerfed' on those merits, and then turn around and say that you do realize this game is about teamwork just doesn't make any sense.

Modifié par AreleX, 11 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[SuicidalBaby]

More insults from the hipocrital deflector. critically reviewing your missleading thread and poor subject matter sure brought out the best in you. Please, hit me with something more original than "get a life." You fail to understand I was beliittling your analysis & false advertising, not you as a person directly. That would be shallow and undeserved.

Please continue to act as if youre better than me simply because you assumed that was what I was implying.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

AreleX wrote...

1. Arrow of Slaying was worthless unless used under FAR more specific conditions than 'Enemy is Brittle. Press button. Enemy dies.'

I don't know what game you were playing, but when I played DAO and used arrow of slaying, the typically meant instant death for the enemy unless it was a boss or an Elite who got lucky. Brittle status? Didn't even need to exploit that.

2. Name me a class in DA2 that DOESN'T rely on CCCs for consistently fast clears. If you say Warrior, I'm going to slap you. Every single one needs some modicum of support (be they heals, CCCs, buffs, etc). for it.

I'll gladly take the slap. Based on your avatar, I assume you're a woman. Depending on how soft your hands are, I may even get a thrill out of it.

3. I didn't get 'constantly knocked around' at any point in the game, stealth and good companion use provided me with everything I needed before gaining knockback immunity.

Again, I agree. You can prevent getting knocked around like a rag doll in most scenarios with good threat management. Even so, this doesn't change the fact that this wasn't a factor in Origins, hence why I can claim there being a nerf.

4. Etched Ring of the Twins is available to purchase at any point in Act II that you clear the Nexus Golem's Gauntlet.

Etched Ring of the Twins doesn't do jack. I wasted 80 sovereigns learning  that lesson the hard way. Big mistake. Total ripoff. Your rogues still flies all over the place if you have them flying in there like Legolas. Evidently knockback immunity and stun immunity are two different things in spite stunlocks essentially depicting your character getting constantly knocked back.

5. If you acknowledge this being a party based game, how can you call Rogues 'nerfed'? Are mages nerfed because they can't put their party on hold and destroy the entire battlefield in one rain of stupid any more? No, they aren't, they simply need companions for optimal use, because that's how this game works.

I repeat: Fortitude and Cross class combo reliance. This particularly hurts mages and rogues far moreso than Warriors and forces you to play the game more tactically. Speaking of mages, I'd say nerfing applies to them even moreso, given increased cooldowns and lower offensive potential.

Also, both games are party based games, but that doesn't change the fact that one can play either of them while not adhering to this paradigm. Moreover, I'd say that even from the party based perspective, Rogues/Mages were more effective in DAO than they are in DA2 due to the reasons I've provided

DA2 is not Origins, it is its own game. Your problems seem to lie more with the game mechanics than the Rogue class itself, which is fair, if you're of that opinion. However, to say that something is 'nerfed' on those merits, and then turn around and say that you do realize this game is about teamwork just doesn't make any sense.

I agree with this as well. DA2 is a different game with different mechanics. Despite the problems I have with some of the mechanics, the combat is the feature I love the most about this game.

I think the problem you're having with my post boils down to simple misunderstanding. You have a very negative connotation of the word 'nerf' and have placed more characteristics to the word than I care to consider. To me, nerf simply expresses the idea of "less powerful." Perhaps this is sparked from what I said regarding Isabela. I feel that her being a DW Rogue contributes to some of her problems, but certainly not all of them. I don't feel she compares DW Hawke (who at least have specs like Assassin and Shadow).

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[aethernox]

Stun is only caused by specific abilities, generally used by lieutenants and bosses. However, there does exist both knockback and knockdown, and I don't believe that ERotT protects from both, even though they're easily confused. Knockdown is generally caused by extremely powerful blows, like Mature/High Dragon/Arishok attacks, while knockback is caused by every warrior/rogue ever. The ring prevents you from getting animation-locked by every critter with a bow, but it doesn't let you ignore boss' attacks. Just clarifying.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

More insults from the hipocrital deflector. critically reviewing your missleading thread and poor subject matter sure brought out the best in you. Please, hit me with something more original than "get a life." You fail to understand I was beliittling your analysis & false advertising, not you as a person directly. That would be shallow and undeserved.

Please continue to act as if youre better than me simply because you assumed that was what I was implying.

I only respond to people based on how they behave and respond to me. You chose to respond to me like a child, thus I chose to treat you like a child. You'll notice that I have not responded to any other peron in this thread in the same manner in spite of just about everyone here disagreeing with me.

I don't imply that you need to get a life to appear 'clever' or 'original', but based on the vibe I'm getting from you. You seem to take Dragon Age 2 very seriously and acted as if I had attacked  your own mother when it came to your responses in this thread. Dragon Age 2 is just a video game, thus I can't see what need there is to get so hostile over it. I don't buy your claim of not having tried to attack me personally given your whole "if you were even worth a 10th of my time" routine.

Now, for this next part, I'm not saying it because I feel I am treating you the way you deserve to be treated, but am rather making an impartial observation. You don't realize that your post came off as insulting/belittling. I'm not certain if you behave the same way in the real world, but I'd say your actions here (assuming you really believe you came into this thread civily) are an excellent demonstration of the fact that you need to work on your communication skills. I can assure you that if I were to print your post and show it to several of my colleagues without explaining that it was in response to me or anything, they'd unanimously agree that you came off as an **** with a chip on his shoulder.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

aethernox wrote...

Stun is only caused by specific abilities, generally used by lieutenants and bosses. However, there does exist both knockback and knockdown, and I don't believe that ERotT protects from both, even though they're easily confused. Knockdown is generally caused by extremely powerful blows, like Mature/High Dragon/Arishok attacks, while knockback is caused by every warrior/rogue ever. The ring prevents you from getting animation-locked by every critter with a bow, but it doesn't let you ignore boss' attacks. Just clarifying.

If I can get my camera up and working, I'll upload an earlier save where I didn't have that ring I got from the Black Emporium in Act 3 and show my Hawke getting knocked around when engaging foes in direct combat. I specifically purchased the ERotT for the purpose of not getting animation locked, but still found that happening. and remember having to look around on these forums and wait until act 3 specifically for stun immunity. If what you're saying is true, the only way I can possibly explain my experiences is that it's a bug an that like other features in the console version of the game (i.e. goad and armistice), it's not working properly.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[Amioran]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
For whatever reason, Bioware nerfed the crap out of DW rogues.

Are you joking? No, seriously, because, you know, probably DW rogue is the most powerful class of all the game.

Read a guide on how to do a serious build, then you will change idea (and you don't either need to do a full powergaming build, as it happens mostly with warriors).

Warrior is good and all, but saying that DW is nerfed is going seriously far.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Amioran wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
For whatever reason, Bioware nerfed the crap out of DW rogues.

Are you joking? No, seriously, because, you know, probably DW rogue is the most powerful class of all the game.

Read a guide on how to do a serious build, then you will change idea (and you don't either need to do a full powergaming build, as it happens mostly with warriors).

Warrior is good and all, but saying that DW is nerfed is going seriously far.

I just looked at the person who made the DW Assassin One Shot overkill guide. We play the game about the same way, except my Rogue Hawke is a DW/Archer Hybrid (except for a few specific instances and my duel against the Arishok in which I respecced my character because I didn't want to use the bow or even constantly swap out) and I didn't pump as much into CUN (as I said, the game wasn't hard enough to me, hence I didn't see the need). I'd swap out whenever I saw fit to swap out. Not to mention that I found the stunlock issue too bothersome to make my Rogue a pure melee character. I also didn't use the Duelist class. When I went up against the Arishok and respecced my character completely, I found the Assassin/Shadow spec to make that battle stupidly easy. Didn't even need to heal.

That said, at the end of the day, the crux of my argument boils down to the introduction of the fortitude feature and reliance on Cross class Combos (as bosses didn't have an insane amount of health or armor). That DW AssassinONe Shot overkill guide is pretty impressive,  but it doesn't change the fact that a rogue's survivability and ability to take care of itself was much greater in Origins and that you didn't need combos to deal high amounts of damage to elite enemies or bosses. This didn't just apply to Rogues, but mages as well. You can post all the videos you like demonstrating how useful a class potentially is. I won't dispute such videos because I'll agree with you. That's about as much as I will agree with though

[tonnactus]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...


Isabela

Although our pirate queen temptress is easy on the eyes, that's the only good thing about her. She may be decent on casual or normal, but when you try to use her on the upper difficulty settings , you'll find her to be getting stunlocked too often or wiped out instantly by enemies.

Then use savy.Defense is nerfed greatly,but it still work atleast against normal enemies.And there are daggers/items like carta left hand that protect against knokcback and stuns.She isnt so bad.

[tonnactus]

godlike13 wrote...

LoL, that's why ur calling them nerfed. I guess rather then playing and bulding them to overcome their disadvantages, its easier to just call a class nerfed.

But mages have unshakable. Warriors invest in strenght anyway.But rogues have to wait until they reach act 2 and have to spend 80 souvereigns to get a ring that protect against stunlocks(and a hard fight before they could buy that). They dont have any class talents that increase fortitude.
And defense is greatly reduced against elites and bosses. I play on hardcore and it still sucks.

[SuicidalBaby]

quite entertaining, thank you for the read. Its good to know you leave yourself and context at the door when personally attacking someone. this was fun.

[naughty99]

rogues are not nerfed if you are playing one as hawke. (or varric)

However, in my experience so far, the OP has been correct in that Isabella is the most useless companion in the game. I would like to find a way to use her in boss fights for her Below the Water Line talent (-50% dmg resistance), but I can't keep her alive very long in tough battles.

Modifié par naughty99, 11 avril 2011 - 06:53 .

[Vesperz]

Honestly, I can't take you seriously, I've played 3-4 playthroughs of DW rogues and have never had this much fun, I play the class in every game imaginable and I just can't imagine where your idea of nerfed is coming from, they were powerful in DA:O and are still powerful in DA2, your failure with them doesn't mean they're nerfed, also the arguments you're bringing to counter AreleX are making me want to gouge my eyes out. Watch his videos, you will understand how completely mistaken you are. Brb smashing head against desk to forget reading this thread.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Vesperz wrote...

Honestly, I can't take you seriously, I've played 3-4 playthroughs of DW rogues and have never had this much fun, I play the class in every game imaginable and I just can't imagine where your idea of nerfed is coming from, they were powerful in DA:O and are still powerful in DA2, your failure with them doesn't mean they're nerfed, also the arguments you're bringing to counter AreleX are making me want to gouge my eyes out. Watch his videos, you will understand how completely mistaken you are. Brb smashing head against desk to forget reading this thread.

lol, I don't know if you've really read my arguments if you believe I've had any failure with Rogue Hawke in this game. There have been annoyances yes, but I managed deal with every one of the big changes made from Origins combat mechanics. Go on. Read my comments. Read the part where I mention that my playstyle is similar to AreleX's, how I mention that my fight with the Arishok on nightmare as DW Assassin/Shadow Rogue was stupidly easy, how I mention that Rogues are pretty powerful, but not as good as they were in Origins. My posts are making you gouge your eyes out? For real? Maybe you gouged your eyes out before you started reading my posts.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

tonnactus wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...


Isabela

Although our pirate queen temptress is easy on the eyes, that's the only good thing about her. She may be decent on casual or normal, but when you try to use her on the upper difficulty settings , you'll find her to be getting stunlocked too often or wiped out instantly by enemies.

Then use savy.Defense is nerfed greatly,but it still work atleast against normal enemies.And there are daggers/items like carta left hand that protect against knokcback and stuns.She isnt so bad.

Oh believe me, I've respeced her character a number of times and have played around with her tactics attempting to find out what works. At best, I can make her decent, but the way I see it, why go through all that trouble when I can just plug in a more reliable character like Varric, set up his tactics and not have to baby him throughout the fights as I am primarily switching between Hawke and Fenris (again, speaking from the perspective of a Rogue Hawke playthrough)? Even with my Warrior Hawke, I wasn't fond of Isabela. I only brought her along hoping to see some romance dialogue, but this ended up biting me in the butt in my first playthrough when I found my 2H Hawke moving in slow motion due to the STDs he got from Isabela. As Rogue Hawke, I only bothered with her ass for quests  that required her.

[Amioran]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
That said, at the end of the day, the crux of my argument boils down to the introduction of the fortitude feature and reliance on Cross class Combos (as bosses didn't have an insane amount of health or armor).

For a rogue there are three ways to avoid being knocked back. For a mage there are four.
If you chose to not use them it's not the fault of the game.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
That DW AssassinONe Shot overkill guide is pretty impressive,  but it doesn't change the fact that a rogue's survivability and ability to take care of itself was much greater in Origins and that you didn't need combos to deal high amounts of damage to elite enemies or bosses. This didn't just apply to Rogues, but mages as well. You can post all the videos you like demonstrating how useful a class potentially is. I won't dispute such videos because I'll agree with you. That's about as much as I will agree with though

You don't "need" CCC to do good damage against Elites. Assassinate is more than enough even without Brittle (surely it's much better with it, but it's not necessary to win). Twin Fangs doesn't use CCC and it does a lot of damage with an high cun.

A three mage party doesn't rely on CCCs and it kills everything, just nuking. CCCs are not indispensable to do damage, at all.

Apart this, either if they were needed (and they aren't), just a sinlge warrior can cause so much staggers that you lack the cooldowns to exploit them, and you should purposedly avoid doing CCC to not rely on them with a so called "balanced" party.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

tonnactus wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

LoL, that's why ur calling them nerfed. I guess rather then playing and bulding them to overcome their disadvantages, its easier to just call a class nerfed.

But mages have unshakable. Warriors invest in strenght anyway.But rogues have to wait until they reach act 2 and have to spend 80 souvereigns to get a ring that protect against stunlocks(and a hard fight before they could buy that). They dont have any class talents that increase fortitude.
And defense is greatly reduced against elites and bosses. I play on hardcore and it still sucks.

Knockback immunity. If it prevented my Hawke from getting pimp slapped, I wouldn't have bothered purchasing the ring of best wishes. That being said, some clarificaation on this issue would help. The 80 sovereigns ring didn't work for me. Based on the vibe I'm getting here, it worked for other people. Is this a bug? Or are we talking about two different things?

[Evermind2k]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
If I can get my camera up and working, I'll upload an earlier save where I didn't have that ring I got from the Black Emporium in Act 3 and show my Hawke getting knocked around when engaging foes in direct combat. I specifically purchased the ERotT for the purpose of not getting animation locked, but still found that happening. and remember having to look around on these forums and wait until act 3 specifically for stun immunity. If what you're saying is true, the only way I can possibly explain my experiences is that it's a bug an that like other features in the console version of the game (i.e. goad and armistice), it's not working properly.

I'm on PC and seemed to experience the same thing on my second DW Rogue playthrough. I bought the Etched Ring of the Twins on both playthroughs ASAP, but on my second playthrough I still seemed to be getting walloped all over the place more than usual, it seemed to stop in Act 3 (probably when I got the Ring of No Wishes (Stun/Critical Immunity) but not sure, only going off of vague memory here.

I do know though that it was frustrating enough of a difference and that I definitely did not have that same problem on my first playthrough.