59 réponses à ce sujet

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Amioran wrote...

For a rogue there are three ways to avoid being knocked back. For a mage there are four.
If you chose to not use them it's not the fault of the game.

Mr. Amior (can I call you Amior)? I'm a debater at heart and always will be. So don't take this the wrong way or anything, but your response is illogical. Now before you take this offensively, here me out and read my entire post. I'm telling you that the basis for my argument is the implementation of the foritude feature as well as reliance on CCC in order to deal effective damage. In DAO, there was no fortitude feature, hence knockback was for the most part a foreign concept (it was ability based, not stat based) and high amounts of damage could be dealt without reliance on specific skills acquired by part members of different classes. This is why it was so easy to solo DAO. It was less party focused.

In response, you inform me that there are ways to prevent getting knocked around. While that may be true (which I myself have pointed out a plethora of times in this topic), that doesn't lead us to the conclusion that what I'm saying is incorrect. You may be able to work at preventing this problem for your characters in DA2, but there was no problem to prevent in DAO. In other words, your reasoning is a text book example of the non sequitur fallacy. X does not automatically lead us to the conclusion Y.

You don't "need" CCC to do good damage against Elites. Assassinate is more than enough even without Brittle (surely it's much better with it, but it's not necessary to win). Twin Fangs doesn't use CCC and it does a lot of damage with an high cun.

You didn't mention bosses. Is this an indication that you think CCC is necessary to do good damage against them? As for Elites, I've watched some videos questioning my initial assumptions just now, therefore shall retract my statement.

A three mage party doesn't rely on CCCs and it kills everything, just nuking. CCCs are not indispensable to do damage, at all.

Of course they aren't indispensable to damage. I'm talking about dealing high damage. This isn't to say I don't believe you, but utilizing three mages without CCCs and still dealing sizable amounts of damage on even the toughest enemies by just nuking everything? Would you mind clarifying as I might try this out in a future playthrough.

Apart this, either if they were needed (and they aren't), just a sinlge warrior can cause so much staggers that you lack the cooldowns to exploit them, and you should purposedly avoid doing CCC to not rely on them with a so called "balanced" party.

This is an issue of setting up your tactics properly or manually inputting in commands.Poor timing if you will. Me? I don't just mindlessly cast chain lightning every single time my warrior gets a stagger. I wait and act at the right moment. You know the intial Pride Demon fight you have during the Last Straw Quest? You know, the one with all those Sloth demons on the field. I had Fenris Stagger a sizable amount of them and then had Merrill chain lightning their asses. Shortest battle ever.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 11 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Evermind2k wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
If I can get my camera up and working, I'll upload an earlier save where I didn't have that ring I got from the Black Emporium in Act 3 and show my Hawke getting knocked around when engaging foes in direct combat. I specifically purchased the ERotT for the purpose of not getting animation locked, but still found that happening. and remember having to look around on these forums and wait until act 3 specifically for stun immunity. If what you're saying is true, the only way I can possibly explain my experiences is that it's a bug an that like other features in the console version of the game (i.e. goad and armistice), it's not working properly.

I'm on PC and seemed to experience the same thing on my second DW Rogue playthrough. I bought the Etched Ring of the Twins on both playthroughs ASAP, but on my second playthrough I still seemed to be getting walloped all over the place more than usual, it seemed to stop in Act 3 (probably when I got the Ring of No Wishes (Stun/Critical Immunity) but not sure, only going off of vague memory here.

I do know though that it was frustrating enough of a difference and that I definitely did not have that same problem on my first playthrough.

So it worked on one playthrough but not the other? Definately sounds like a bug then. That makes sense as I wondering why they'd just so much money for a worthless item. Do the Devs know about this?

[Evermind2k]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
So it worked on one playthrough but not the other? Definately sounds like a bug then. That makes sense as I wondering why they'd just so much money for a worthless item. Do the Devs know about this?

double post, plz delete

Modifié par Evermind2k, 12 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Evermind2k]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
So it worked on one playthrough but not the other? Definately sounds like a bug then. That makes sense as I wondering why they'd just so much money for a worthless item. Do the Devs know about this?

That's only my vague recollection, so nothing confirmed.

All I remember is that on my first rogue playthrough, I was like this ring is awesome!

On my second playthrough, I was like what the hell.... why did I buy this ring again? is it even working?

But even if it is a bug, are they even planning a bugfix patch? I know they did a measly 1.0.1, but my rogue playing days are over probably, so I don't care enough really to go back to play test and confirm.

Modifié par Evermind2k, 11 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[AreleX]

Knockdown and knockback are two different things.

Knockdown is what happens when you're hit by an attack from a boss/sub-boss dragon or the Arishok, for example.

Knockback is what happens when an Abomination hits you.

[Amioran]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
Mr. Amior (can I call you Amior)? I'm a debater at heart and always will be. So don't take this the wrong way or anything, but your response is illogical. Now before you take this offensively, here me out and read my entire post. I'm telling you that the basis for my argument is the implementation of the foritude feature as well as reliance on CCC in order to deal effective damage. In DAO, there was no fortitude feature, hence knockback was for the most part a foreign concept (it was ability based, not stat based) and high amounts of damage could be dealt without reliance on specific skills acquired by part members of different classes. This is why it was so easy to solo DAO. It was less party focused.

So, in fact, you are actually demonstrating that it is not DA2 in fallacy, but DAO, because the primary intent of a party based RPG should just be, you know, being balanced for a party, not for single player.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
In response, you inform me that there are ways to prevent getting knocked around. While that may be true (which I myself have pointed out a plethora of times in this topic), that doesn't lead us to the conclusion that what I'm saying is incorrect. You may be able to work at preventing this problem for your characters in DA2, but there was no problem to prevent in DAO. In other words, your reasoning is a text book example of the non sequitur fallacy. X does not automatically lead us to the conclusion Y.

Sure that they are still there, and they must be. In a party based RPG the gameplay is to be concepted in lines. Both the middle and rear line have to be "soft" and have problems with the first line of the opposing enemy, or balance of the lines will have no sense. If the middle and rear lines would be as strong as the first line, without some sort of concept to evidence this difference apart simple damage numbers, there would be no challenge (and, in fact, there was no challenge at all in DAO).

Later, progressing, you can find ways to overcome this limitation, but it must be costy or require careful building. The system is perfect, both in theory and practice. It was DAO at a fault, not DA2.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
You didn't mention bosses. Is this an indication that you think CCC is necessary to do good damage against them?

 
No, I just replied to what you wrote. You did wrote about Elites and I replied about Elites. CCCs are not necessarily neede, they are handy but certainly not necessary to win the game.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
This isn't to say I don't believe you, but utilizing three mages without CCCs and still dealing sizable amounts of damage on even the toughest enemies by just nuking everything? Would you mind clarifying as I might try this out in a future playthrough.

Perfectly possible. Hawke Force Mage/Blood Mage specced in Fire/Cold with high +% fire gear, Anders same with creation and his line but with +cold gear (if needed), Merrill Primal + Spirit and a bit of Entropy, and Varric to exploit Brittles on elites and general damage otherwise.

First group comes: Gravitic + Firestorm (usually it's enough with high fire gear, but with resistant then you can have Merrill cast Tempest above, or use Hemorrhage/Walking Bomb there), second wave comes: Pull of the Abyss + Ander's Glyph of Paralysis + Hermorrhage/Merrill's Walking Bomb, repeat.

This is only an example, there's a video of AreleX that has a three mage party in it, watch it.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
This is an issue of setting up your tactics properly or manually inputting in commands.Poor timing if you will. Me? I don't just mindlessly cast chain lightning every single time my warrior gets a stagger. I wait and act at the right moment. You know the intial Pride Demon fight you have during the Last Straw Quest? You know, the one with all those Sloth demons on the field. I had Fenris Stagger a sizable amount of them and then had Merrill chain lightning their asses. Shortest battle ever.

So you are actually saying what I was saying. That's very easy to exploit staggers. Either if they aren't needed to do good damage, they are handy and easy to setup. So, what's wrong?

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[Amioran]

AreleX wrote...

Knockdown and knockback are two different things.

Knockdown is what happens when you're hit by an attack from a boss/sub-boss dragon or the Arishok, for example.

Knockback is what happens when an Abomination hits you.

More, they are subdivided by form of force employed. Physical force can do both, but apart very strong force, can be avoided by high protection, elemental force can only knockback but it's usually very difficult to resist (you need very high fortitude or an item that blocks it).

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Evermind2k]

AreleX wrote...

Knockdown and knockback are two different things.

Knockdown is what happens when you're hit by an attack from a boss/sub-boss dragon or the Arishok, for example.

Knockback is what happens when an Abomination hits you.

Well aware of this. However, I just don't remember Knockdown even being a problem on my shadow/assassin rogue as much as it has been on my duelist/assassin rogue.

Maybe I had better threat management + the use of decoy or maybe that I was obscured more often?. I just remember being able to stand toe to toe with almost anything on my shadow/asassin rogue after getting the etched ring compared to my duelist/assassin where I seem to spend a lot of my time laying down on the ground. (Ok, not a lot, but more than I would like)

[dualie11]

I've been working hard on using Isabella (get your mind out of the gutter), and I find her back-stabs can be very potent and useful. With Stealth and Evade she is relatively safe in most melée fights.