67 réponses à ce sujet

[DoNotIngest]

Kalthorine wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

He's a really big jerk. That's what kind of jerk he is.

Actually, if you want to be precise he is a really big adulterous jerk - don't forget he had an affair with a married woman (Andraste) and tried to persuade her to leave her husband and go away with him, just because he fancied her singing voice!

And Andraste is one of his children, as all humans are... So he had an adulterously incestful affair with his married daughter

[GenericPlayer2]

Camenae wrote...

I thought it was intended for the existence of the Maker in Thedas to be an ambiguous issue.

Therefore, I was really surprised the "sacred ashes" actually worked to cure Eamon, because I thought it was superstitious nonsense. If lots and lots of lyrium would do it, then wouldn't they have tried that before now. Teagan says they had already and were continuing to try "magical healing" to no avail.

They did keep it ambiguous - you don't know if the ashes were infused with lyrium or if  lyrium radiated some kind of energy into the ashes over the years. In addition, the deep roads expedition shows that there are different types of lyrium and some have powers beyond the magic that mages are aware of.

[highcastle]

lockdown51 wrote...

Maybe Sandal was making a reference to the next protagonist in DA3.

Doubtful if only because BioWare has a proud tradition of allowing players to create both male and female characters. I think he's referring to the OGB (who we know is male and thus also not a future PC), though I'm very likely wrong because Gaider's already said the Dark Ritual's not canon no matter how much I wish it were.

[Jorrkit]

"Tch... The mere fact of their existence does not presuppose intelligent creation by some absentee father figure."

Morrigan x 1000000

[SirLysander]

highcastle wrote...

lockdown51 wrote...

Maybe Sandal was making a reference to the next protagonist in DA3.

Doubtful if only because BioWare has a proud tradition of allowing players to create both male and female characters. I think he's referring to the OGB (who we know is male and thus also not a future PC), though I'm very likely wrong because Gaider's already said the Dark Ritual's not canon no matter how much I wish it were.

On the other hand, haven't they said "There is no cannon," thus making everything - including the OGB - fair game?

[Kalthorine]

Actually the existence of the Maker would have been finalised in DA:O if Bioware hadn't cut the following scene from inside the Temple of Andraste's Ashes:

==============

Leliana: "But how will we get a pinch of ashes from the urn? We cannot possibly touch Andraste's remains with unclean fingers."

Wynne: "True, child."

Alistair: "OK, does anyone have a spoon?"

From the corner of the temple, a shadowy figure (resembling an ethereal Keanu Reeves) speaks quietly.

"There is no spoon..."

[Serelir]

Blessed are the Sporks, for the Wicked shall be Fooned!

The Maker is Tool used for social control. As such, he exists as long as people believe in him.

From the wiki (they didn't give a reference): "Justice claims that spirits do not know whether the Maker exists, and that demons do not care. He also suggests that the spirits who believe in the Maker may do so only because they saw Him in the dreams of mortals."

Which is ambiguous, at best.

[lockdown51]

@Tuilinn Celeborne

You clearly are someone that understands religion's role in history. Social control, a common binding agent for a group of people. Its something to act as a moral compass sometimes or be used as an excuse for genocide.

Either way, the odds are better that the Maker is entirely made up by man. Or there are more than one. All powerful or not, I'm pretty sure one super being doesn't have enough creativity to make every single thing that exists.

[nosNospeak]

Sanders was bad, Sucks Justice was in him. That proves to me there is no "Maker" because no one would put that type of punishment on Justice. '; /

[Masako52]

I'm pretty sure there isn't a Maker any more than there are the Dalish Creator gods. It would be cool if in a later game we find out that the "Maker" is a super powerful spirit, turned evil and we have to kill it or something.

Andraste, I'm pretty sure, is just a powerful mage. I have this theory that Flemeth was Andraste. It DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, I know, but it just seems too awesome to not believe just a little bit.

[Masako52]

double post, sorry

Modifié par Masako52, 18 avril 2011 - 04:21 .

[Bfler]

What would interest me is: What is the counterpart of the Maker in the DA universe? If I understand right the Maker is god but is there also a devil in the DA universe?

[Rexiselic]

So what kind of jerk is the Maker anyway?

The imaginary kind.

Modifié par Rexiselic, 18 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[Ayanko]

He needs a kitten.

[Eternal Phoenix]

If he was jealous of the old gods' power. How would he be able to other throw all of them? He's obviously the more powerful. I don't like this Maker though. He's supposed to have created humans and elves but then marries a human? Shame we can't roleplay in DA to believe in a god that isn't The Maker but maybe Andrastance being his wife is meant in a spirtual way?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 avril 2011 - 04:41 .

[TheAwesomologist]

The same kind of jerk that God, Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Odin, and another other "father-like" deity is.

[Gamer Ftw]

Pfft Odin is awesome.

[Serelir]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Pfft Odin is awesome.

Definitely! If I had to pick a father god, I'd definitely go with Odin: Hugin and Munin, Geri and Freki, Sleipnir, the missing eye, hanging on Yggdrasil, wandering around incognito, being the inspiration for Gandalf and Santa Claus. Much cooler than the Maker, imho.

[Andronic0s]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

This whole darkspawn thing is his fault.
Everyone should be punished for the sins of a few?
good plan you daft jerkface.
I think he was just jealous of The Old God's power.

One could make an argument that since the "people" of the Tevinter Imperium "tolerated" the magisters and did not attempted to rebel against their rule at no point (as far as we know) in the history of tevinter they deserve their fate. 

[Eternal Phoenix]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The same kind of jerk that God, Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Odin, and another other "father-like" deity is.

God, Allah and Yahweh are three names for the same god. Take your hatred for religion and God elsewhere. This is a game forum.

[Gamer Ftw]

Elton John is dead wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The same kind of jerk that God, Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Odin, and another other "father-like" deity is.

God, Allah and Yahweh are three names for the same god. Take your hatred for religion and God elsewhere. This is a game forum.

bossy much?

[TheAwesomologist]

Elton John is dead wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The same kind of jerk that God, Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Odin, and another other "father-like" deity is.

God, Allah and Yahweh are three names for the same god. Take your hatred for religion and God elsewhere. This is a game forum.

Woah, lighten up Francis. This isn't about hatred. Look at any religion with a father-like deity. They all share similar structures and share a foundation in a god who makes certain demands of their followers, which is likely due to the fact that religions are created by mankind to explain the world and events around them*. Look through the Old Testament and you'll find that God/Yahweh isn't very nice and is often a wrathful or vindictive god. Take a look at Greek Mythology and you'll find Zeus to have just as many human flaws. Even Jesus gets pissy and starts tossing tables around for what he believes is an affront to God that merchants had setup shop by the temple.

Dieties, in general, are jerks. The Maker is no different. Thats how we can relate to Andrastian faith without knowing too much about it.

*There's actually a few in game dialog moments between Merrill and Anders as well as Merrill and Sebastian about Andrastian beliefs and how the Dalish have their own ways of explaining the world.

[Serelir]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Dieties, in general, are jerks. The Maker is no different. Thats how we can relate to Andrastian faith without knowing too much about it.

Well said! Tempers are flaring about the Chantry/Mages debate, and I think some people are equating the Cult of Andraste to their own religion and thus feel offended. I'd like to think I have a comfortable emotional distance from the game, but I find myself gritting my teeth when my character talks to Sebastian or Leliana, or I read about the Exalted March on the Dales. Speaking only for myself, I don't hate religion, I hate religious people who are intolerant of others' beliefs, therefore, I can't stand the fictional Maker and his disciples. I'm able to examine the Ways the Maker is similar to YHWH or any of the other gods, because I see religion from an anthropological perspective.

It's difficult to have a logical argument about faith, as illustrated in this exchange with Leliana about the Urn of Sacred Ashes:

Me: How can something so mundane have power?
L: Maybe it is belief and faith that imbues them with their power, or maybe it is that Andraste was blessed by Him. I do not know if I am worthy to look upon them.
Me: Why do you revere Andrsate?
L: Why shouldn't I? I don't understand.
Me: We don't need Andraste if the Maker speaks to you.
L: Oh, I see what you are asking. If the Maker had not abandoned us, we would not need Andrsate to intercede on our behalf. I revere her because she is His Divine Bride. I don't have any other explanation.
Me: Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.
L: Why? If the Maker has not abandoned us, does that make it necessarily that Andraste was nothing? 
Me: It makes Her begging the Maker to return completely absurd.
L: I know it sounds irrational, but faith is irrational. If we knew the truth, it would be fact. But since we don't, all we can do is believe.

I'd love to ask Leliana why the Maker made demons and darkspawn and Sister Petrice.

[Grimmoir]

I myself have a sinking suspicion that Andraste was a dreamer like Feynriel. If that were the case she would be a pretty powerful mage, just not in the normal sense. Could also go to explaining how she could be captured and burned at the stake. Also, as dreamers according the keeper are powerful enough to change the real world from inside the fade she may very well have created the Maker.... just another theory for the pile.