67 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamer Ftw]

Interestingly enough, there is a book called "The Search for the True Prophet", which is a gift for Wynne, that mentions the possibility that Andraste wasn't, in fact, the Maker's Chosen, but rather "just" an extraordinarily powerful mage. This would explain Andraste's insight on the dangers of magic, whereas most humans, unable or unwilling to separate good magic from evil, fear it all. The text of the book mentions that it has been saved from a fire at some point in time, suggesting that there has been fierce opposition to any depiction of Andraste that runs counter to official Chantry doctrine. This is also a possible explanation for the healing powers of her ashes.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 19 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[Serelir]

Grimmoir wrote...

 Also, as dreamers according the keeper are powerful enough to change the real world from inside the fade she may very well have created the Maker.... just another theory for the pile.

What a cool idea! But how sad that her legacy is hatred and fear of mages.

*Edit: Didn't see your post before I wrote mine, Gamer. I do remember finding that book. It makes me want to explore Tevinter and the Black City more than ever.

Modifié par Tuilinn Celeborne, 19 avril 2011 - 08:12 .

[TheAwesomologist]

It would be fun to explore the origins of the Chantry, Andraste, and the Maker, especially if DA3 does take place in Orlais as suspected. The idea of Andraste just being a very powerful mage (or perhaps something along the lines of Flemeth) makes sense.

[Andronic0s]

I don't see any reason why gods cannot exist in a world full of magic, that being said it is important to know that the Maker is not a "perfect" being unlike in other religions, one of the first things you learn about him is that he created the spirits and erred by not giving them souls or "Creative spark", thus the maker can make mistakes just like say Zeus could in ancient greek religion, so I don't see the chantry or the common people putting much thought into whether he is a jerk or not, as long as he offers salvation at the end of your life.

[Eternal Phoenix]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The same kind of jerk that God, Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Odin, and another other "father-like" deity is.

God, Allah and Yahweh are three names for the same god. Take your hatred for religion and God elsewhere. This is a game forum.

Woah, lighten up Francis. This isn't about hatred. Look at any religion with a father-like deity. They all share similar structures and share a foundation in a god who makes certain demands of their followers, which is likely due to the fact that religions are created by mankind to explain the world and events around them*. Look through the Old Testament and you'll find that God/Yahweh isn't very nice and is often a wrathful or vindictive god. Take a look at Greek Mythology and you'll find Zeus to have just as many human flaws. Even Jesus gets pissy and starts tossing tables around for what he believes is an affront to God that merchants had setup shop by the temple.

Dieties, in general, are jerks. The Maker is no different. Thats how we can relate to Andrastian faith without knowing too much about it.

*There's actually a few in game dialog moments between Merrill and Anders as well as Merrill and Sebastian about Andrastian beliefs and how the Dalish have their own ways of explaining the world.

I've read the entire Old Testament. I see no evil in it. I saw the part all you haters spoke off - the part where God commanded that the Israel people kill the worshippers of Baal who were sacrificing their children to Baal (which God called an abominaton), in fact, when one of the kings of Israel sieged a fort belonging to Baal worshippers - the king who was in that fort sacrificed his own son on the walls of that fort for all to see asking Baal for strength. You'd probably now mention the countless people God killed but you'll forget the part where he says the people he kills are evil and have done deeds which are evil. In one part of The Bible, God kills a man just because he didn't offer King David a place to sleep - make no mistake, this man had sinned beforehand and was spared up until then because he was insignificant but as soon as he turned away David, that's when God took interest.

Besides. I look at the world and see it's no accident. God can be as "bad" as he likes. It's his world - his rules. Morality is created by God and quite frankly - the 10 commandments proves he is a God of justice. 

And we've only gotten into this discussion because you started it. Even if you attacked Buddhism/Islam/Hinduism- I still would have told you to chill because you should respect the religions of other people. If you don't like them or don't agree with them - fine - but you don't need to bring your dislike about them up on a game forum.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 19 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[TheAwesomologist]

Elton John is dead wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The same kind of jerk that God, Allah, Yaweh, Zeus, Odin, and another other "father-like" deity is.

God, Allah and Yahweh are three names for the same god. Take your hatred for religion and God elsewhere. This is a game forum.

Woah, lighten up Francis. This isn't about hatred. Look at any religion with a father-like deity. They all share similar structures and share a foundation in a god who makes certain demands of their followers, which is likely due to the fact that religions are created by mankind to explain the world and events around them*. Look through the Old Testament and you'll find that God/Yahweh isn't very nice and is often a wrathful or vindictive god. Take a look at Greek Mythology and you'll find Zeus to have just as many human flaws. Even Jesus gets pissy and starts tossing tables around for what he believes is an affront to God that merchants had setup shop by the temple.

Dieties, in general, are jerks. The Maker is no different. Thats how we can relate to Andrastian faith without knowing too much about it.

*There's actually a few in game dialog moments between Merrill and Anders as well as Merrill and Sebastian about Andrastian beliefs and how the Dalish have their own ways of explaining the world.

I've read the entire Old Testament. I see no evil in it. I saw the part all you haters spoke off - the part where God commanded that the Israel people kill the worshippers of Baal who were sacrificing their children to Baal (which God called an abominaton), in fact, when one of the kings of Israel sieged a fort belonging to Baal worshippers - the king who was in that fort sacrificed his own son on the walls of that fort for all to see asking Baal for strength.

Besides. I look at the world and see it's no accident. God can be as "bad" as he likes. It's his world - his rules. If you don't like them, find some way to escape the universe he created.

And we've only gotten into this discussion because you started it. Even if you attacked Buddhism/Islam/Hinduism- I still would have told you to chill because you should respect the religions of other people. If you don't like them or don't agree with them - fine - but you don't need to bring your dislike about them up on a game forum.

Varric: Are you for real?

[Eternal Phoenix]

"Look through the Old Testament and you'll find that God/Yahweh isn't very nice and is often a wrathful or vindictive god."

Yes I am for real Varric. You started it. How could you truly believe a Christian would just let this be as though it was true? You need to remember that people of all faiths and beliefs use this forum. So be careful what you say.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 19 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[TheAwesomologist]

Elton John is dead wrote...

"Look through the Old Testament and you'll find that God/Yahweh isn't very nice and is often a wrathful or vindictive god."

Yes I am for real Varric. You started it. How could you truly believe a Christian would just let this be as though it was true? You need to remember that people of all faiths and beliefs use this forum. So be careful what you say.

And I thought Sebastian was preachy and annoying...
Lets just agree to let this go.

[Eternal Phoenix]

As long as you learn to respect other people's beliefs. Yes.

[TheAwesomologist]

Elton John is dead wrote...

As long as you learn to respect other people's beliefs. Yes.

I feel sorry for you. Being so easily offended due to some random internet posting; how do you go about your day fighting what you take to be blasphemers all day long online?
People wonder why religions get a bad rap, it isn't because their god is a jerk it's because their followers are.

[Eternal Phoenix]

You're the only jerk Awesomologist. I would defend most religions because most teach peace apart from atheism and satanism. You are intolerant of other people's views. I think you'll find devout atheists/anti religious people aren't liked either.

I've heard it all before. Atheists and anti-religious people say "death to all religion". They respect only their own beliefs. I respect all that teach peace. Anyone with a brain will see who is in the right here and it's not you.

Since when was having respect for other people's views being a jerk? I don't think you even know what I'm defending in your anger do you? So I'll make it simple:

Me: People can believe what they want as long as it teaches peace.
You: Everyone who believes in God/gods are evil and wrong and I'm right.

I see you won't change your views of hatred and this argument will go no where. So I'm just going to leave. If having the last words make you feel happy. Then so be it.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 19 avril 2011 - 08:36 .

[TheAwesomologist]

Look I'm an equal opportunity offender. My original statement, is just like every known religion here in the real world with a father-like deity, these gods often do things that come off as jerk-ish.

I'm not calling for a death to all religions. I'm not about to pull an Anders and blow up churches. My only point is the Andrastian religion, just like real world religions, are flawed. Thats why we relate to them. Thats why when Varric says "Maker's breath!" we know he's being sacrilegious, or when Sebastian preaches to Merrill we know there's a conflict of belief because we as players and observers of this world understand these conflicts.

I tried to spread my "hate for religion" (there's no hate) across all types by including Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Pagans. (I left out Buddah cause he's actually on his game for the most part but really thats more a philosophy anyways...)

Only you became offended once you were unable to make the connection between the failures of real world religions and the failures of the in-game religions.

[ramenbito]

Heidenreich wrote...

He' Fan'Harel.


*suspenseful music*

That's what kind of jerk he is.

That was what I thought after hearing the Dalish stories about the Creators. And Maker even the name is a give away you can't make anything out of nothing if you do that means that you create not make. ^^


edit: And I also hate the if we can't make everyone believe in the maker then we are doomed so if they do not agree lets just start an exalted march approach. Everyone is entitled to have their own beliefs, personally I would believe in the Creators.

Modifié par ramenbito, 19 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[Serelir]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

I tried to spread my "hate for religion" (there's no hate) across all types by including Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Pagans. (I left out Buddah cause he's actually on his game for the most part but really thats more a philosophy anyways...)

Awww, does that mean you're not coming to my Afterlife party in the Summerlands?  

ramenbito wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

He' Fan'Harel.


*suspenseful music*

That's what kind of jerk he is.

That was what I thought after hearing the Dalish stories about the Creators. And Maker even the name is a give away you can't make anything out of nothing if you do that means that you create not make. ^^


edit: And I also hate the if we can't make everyone believe in the maker then we are doomed so if they do not agree lets just start an exalted march approach. Everyone is entitled to have their own beliefs, personally I would believe in the Creators.

I have trouble equating the Maker with Fen'Harel, because the latter is a Trickster god. It just doesn't seem in keeping with what we know of the Maker. However, as the last one standing (aside from the two remaining Archdemons dragons/Old Gods?), it could be that Fen'Harel has assumed the guise of a Patriarch. That was a pretty neat trick he pulled off stealing Andraste away from her husband.

And this is probably leading off on a tangent, but is the spirit of Justice a "good" demon or an evil one? We never hear much from the supposedly good spirits. 

Modifié par Tuilinn Celeborne, 19 avril 2011 - 10:00 .

[randomcheeses]

The Maker strikes me as an extremely passive-agressive deity.

[andraip]

The Maker is the Final Boss of DA3

[Foulfrost]

The Maker is almost certainly the most powerful and possible the most ancient of the Fade entities.

My guess? He once wondered about the mortal realm corrupting and feeding on it until the Elves, Dwarves and their gods - current Elven Gods - imprisoned The Maker in the Black City and locked up his agents underground.

This terrible event severed the dwarves from all forms of magic, venerating paragons instead. Left Flemeth - Fen'Harel - as the only god left, having tricked the Elven Gods to be locked up in Heaven and the Old Gods underground and left the world forever changed.

The darkspawn, the blights, the corrupted lyrium, the taint, the song, all the work of the Maker in his infinite attempts to escape the Black City and return to Thedas.

For those who look closely enough, there are MANY hints ingame as to this all being true.

Da: Inq certainly seems to hint that this is all the case... wait and see.

[Major Crackhead]

The Maker is a frat boy party king that spends his spare days ranting about SJWs on BSN and telling his bride Andraste to take out his godly laundry. He has no time for your precious morals.