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[Stardusk78]

Devs said ME will be even harder (on Insanity)...

[Ahglock]

termokanden wrote...

I like how it makes weapon choice more important. ALL classes already have something against all defense types, and I think it's a mistake to think you must have Warp or Overload to survive. But you definitely benefit from using weapons of the right type.

It's not really RPS. But one of those letters is just going to work better, and you always have them all at your disposal. Maybe not as a power, but at least as a weapon.

I think you can have differences come from range just as much as what defense they work against.  Again to me it really doens't add much.  Oh shields, switch tot he SMG or shotgun, armor pistol or rifle, assault rifle is a solid everything gun.  Switching out to a SMG for most of a level since it is shield heavy really doesn't mean much to me.  And since I don't find it to be adding any real tactical element, I'd rather people be more free to pick weapons on a styalisitc level.  You like sniper rifles go for it, you wont be penalized since you are facing blue suns.    

[Ahglock]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Devs said ME will be even harder (on Insanity)...

I hope so.  By my second play through I was too comfortable playing through what is supposed to "insanely" difficult. 

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Devs said ME will be even harder (on Insanity)...

Really? What I got from the GI article is that they were bumping up difficulty on all levels.

I'm blowing through Hardcore now, and I don't expect Insanity to be too much trouble. I'd appreciate some improved robustness as far as the AI goes, but at the same time I don't want the game to become too too hard.

[Bozorgmehr]

AK404 wrote...

However, your example is a purely cosmetic issue (or in the case of PCs, a performance tweak) that rests solely on hardware.  Outside of slowing down game performance, these tweaks do not affect player performance in any way.  Difficulty level has everything to do with player performance and nothing to do with hardware or software performance.

In other words, tweaking graphics and sound levels: testing the computer's hardware and software capabilities.  Tweaking difficulty: testing the player's hardware and software capabilities.

Difficulty and graphics are of course not the same thing. But their respective systems do work alike. Every game has only one AI system. The only things that chances when you turn up the difficulty are stats. In ME2 enemies behave exactly the same regardless if you're playing Casual or Insanity. On Insanity they simply have more HP, better aim, do more damage (or player takes more damage), use special attacks more often (FB, Warp, drones) etc.

Enabling more advanced shader models, AA, lightning effects etc is basically the same thing. But these things can be adjusted by player manually - difficulty cannot, the devs have predefined those settings. I wouldn't mind having the option to tweak those setting like you can with graphics - that's my point.

I'll likely play ME3 on Insanity anyway, but to give one example: I hate ME1 Insanity - it takes way too long before enemies die. I would love to use ME1's Insanity settings (enemies hit harder, use powers frequently, Shep dies fast etc) but remove the insane HPs enemies get on that level so I can complete the game a lot faster whilst still having a 'challenge' (if you call ME1 fighting challenging that is) only without the tedious "shoot enemies 100x in the head before they die" nonsense.

[XCPTNL]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Every game has only one AI system. The only things that chances when you turn up the difficulty are stats.

Not every game. There are some that have mor differences between difficulties. The most famous ones that come to my mind (because I have played them so much) are the (newer) Ninja Gaiden games. They don't just bump up the stats but you might face more enemies or even completely different ones in certain spots. I remember how I was surprised repeatedly when completely different enemies spawned in a certain spot. Either enemies that were more like rare sub-boss characters on a lower difficulty or even an enemy type that wasn't even in a lower difficulty at all.

The games do have their flaws and balancing issues and even the lower difficulties are too hard for a lot of people but still I think they did a great job there because they actually thought about the difficulty levels a bit more and didn't just bump up all the stats.

[termokanden]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Devs said ME will be even harder (on Insanity)...

Could be good or bad.

If they just increase damage done by enemies it will make it silly. Don't need Shep to be made out of paper. This to me is the kind of thing that's severely immersion breaking.

But most enemies are just not aggressive enough. Almost all of them just stick to their places and will not try to flank you or anything.

If you just had more enemies like the krogan or even LOKI mechs (while easy, they walk straight up to your position if you do not kill them), the game could be more difficult in a fun way.

Who cares how hard some Blue Suns merc is able to hit if you can just stay in cover and avoid the damage?

Modifié par termokanden, 13 avril 2011 - 11:17 .

[Stardusk78]

termokanden wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Devs said ME will be even harder (on Insanity)...

Could be good or bad.

If they just increase damage done by enemies it will make it silly. Don't need Shep to be made out of paper. This to me is the kind of thing that's severely immersion breaking.

But most enemies are just not aggressive enough. Almost all of them just stick to their places and will not try to flank you or anything.

If you just had more enemies like the krogan or even LOKI mechs (while easy, they walk straight up to your position if you do not kill them), the game could be more difficult in a fun way.

Who cares how hard some Blue Suns merc is able to hit if you can just stay in cover and avoid the damage?

They WILL have that; they even called them a specific name, Cover Busters and the Devs said Cover Busters will make you get out of cover whilst a Cover (Forcer or something like that) forces you into cover, trapping you...will make it much more challenging.

[termokanden]

Depends on the implementation then I guess. Cover Buster spam could potentially be incredibly annoying if it's like the one Harbinger uses. The stagger effect is why it's annoying, feels like you're stuck for ages.

The problem with the highest difficulty is that it has to be challenging and not just frustrating. ME1 makes it frustrating. ME2 is much better but is too easy. Looking forward to seeing what they come up with in any case.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I'll likely play ME3 on Insanity anyway, but to give one example: I hate ME1 Insanity - it takes way too long before enemies die. I would love to use ME1's Insanity settings (enemies hit harder, use powers frequently, Shep dies fast etc) but remove the insane HPs enemies get on that level so I can complete the game a lot faster whilst still having a 'challenge' (if you call ME1 fighting challenging that is) only without the tedious "shoot enemies 100x in the head before they die" nonsense.

Ad ME1:
Then why not just play it on Veteran? Insanity enemies with Veteran-like health is simply a Veteran mode, you will either CC them (anyone but Soldier) or you can't be killed (Soldier). What's the point?
And for the record I think ME1 Insanity is really boring..I abandoned that mode after a few playthroughs.



It would be absolutely ridiculous if ME2 had disable shields/armor/barrier/flashbangs/flanking/pyros toggles.

BioWare obviously tested Insanity, even though they say Normal is the baseline experience, the "defense protects enemy from being pwned" system they introduced for Hardcore and Insanity was advertised before the game was released. And some powers (Energy Drain) and combos exist only beacuse of that system.
Even though it *is* a SP game, some balance is needed, because otherwise the game would suck and everyone would play one build only. Customizable difficulty modes take that away.

Personally, I think there was so much b***ing about shields blocking biotics, because some people start on Insanity, find out it's not godlike Shepard anymore and instead of turning it down to Normal or Veteran, they **** and whine about biotics (just an example).

Modifié par Kronner, 13 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[XCPTNL]

termokanden wrote...

Depends on the implementation then I guess. Cover Buster spam could potentially be incredibly annoying if it's like the one Harbinger uses. The stagger effect is why it's annoying, feels like you're stuck for ages.

Staggers are the most annoying feature in ME2 in my opinion. I'd honestly prefer it if I would just instantly die when I'm hit by some of the attacks because that's what usually happens anyway when there's staggering and you just have to stand there in the open and then get killed while desperately trying to take cover, run away, heal or do something against the incoming Critical Mission Failure screen. It's so annoying because you know you'd survive is the stupid effect wouldn't last that long and is possibly followed by the next stagger once you break free. Just kill me instantly but don't torture me like this only to get the same result in the end most of the time.

[Bozorgmehr]

Korjyan wrote...

Not every game. There are some that have mor differences between difficulties. The most famous ones that come to my mind (because I have played them so much) are the (newer) Ninja Gaiden games. They don't just bump up the stats but you might face more enemies or even completely different ones in certain spots. I remember how I was surprised repeatedly when completely different enemies spawned in a certain spot. Either enemies that were more like rare sub-boss characters on a lower difficulty or even an enemy type that wasn't even in a lower difficulty at all.

The games do have their flaws and balancing issues and even the lower difficulties are too hard for a lot of people but still I think they did a great job there because they actually thought about the difficulty levels a bit more and didn't just bump up all the stats.

I never played Ninja Gaiden so can't say much about that game, but I doubt the AI behaved differently (more potently) when you increase difficulty. Having more enemies or more powerful enemies doesn't change AI - only the number/types of enemies change to make it harder (which is a much better system than to give enemies unlimited HP imo - I really hate that about most games).

@ Kronner; I understand your point, but I don't understand why you think it's that bad to have players determine how they like to play instead of presets (usually put in place without much thought anyway) by the devs.

Even though it *is* a SP game, some balance is needed, because otherwise the game would suck and everyone would play one build only. Customizable difficulty modes take that away.

If you have played DA2 on NM you would not say that. DA2 NM mode forces you to play with an all ranged party and one melee (every other setup will wipe out the party); it blocks the use of half the spells/talents available because using them is suicidal - all because of Friendly Fire (which cannot be toggled on/off) and this literally means everyone is using the exact same builds, party setup, with the same abilities and tactics. DA2 NM mode would be a lot more interesting and allow actual variety in builds, parties, skills, and playstyle without FF. There are also a lot of players who don't like the strong enemies on NM but would like to play an easier level with FF enabled - I can't see why they should not have that ability.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...


@ Kronner; I understand your point, but I don't understand why you think it's that bad to have players determine how they like to play instead of presets (usually put in place without much thought anyway) by the devs.

If you have played DA2 on NM you would not say that. DA2 NM mode forces you to play with an all ranged party and one melee (every other setup will wipe out the party); it blocks the use of half the spells/talents available because using them is suicidal - all because of Friendly Fire (which cannot be toggled on/off) and this literally means everyone is using the exact same builds, party setup, with the same abilities and tactics. DA2 NM mode would be a lot more interesting and allow actual variety in builds, parties, skills, and playstyle without FF. There are also a lot of players who don't like the strong enemies on NM but would like to play an easier level with FF enabled - I can't see why they should not have that ability.

I was talking about shooters, mainly. When you think about ME2, why would anyone be able to change (read: make easier) Insanity's (just example, it is the same for any difficulty) setting, when you can simply tone it down and get whatever experience you want? Godlike Shepard = Casual. Should it be possible to add shields to casual mode? Why bother with difficulty modes then? Just make it custom and let everyone set this and that? Except it is a b1tch to balance, and ultimately screws it up for those who like stock settings..that's why I am so opposed to that. If I don't like the hardest setting in some game, I simply play easier mode. There are plenty of modes available to everyone in ME2.
Just imagine if Unreal Torunament's Godlike mode had "slow enemies by 50%" toggle. Why even bother making that mode then?

As for DA2, it is a very poor game, and FF may be poorly implemented, but it is totally different game from Mass Effect, that's like comparing apples and oranges, really.
ME is a shooter and never had punishing FF, the only difference between Insanity and Veteran are that enemies do more damage and have more defesnes and health, any maybe some minor AI tweaks, but adding a toggle for disabling this or that? Why? Anyone can play Veteran mode and enjoy the game.

(examples only)

Modifié par Kronner, 13 avril 2011 - 05:20 .

[Bozorgmehr]

I'm talking in general (I completely support your ME2-Insanity-without-defenses/godmode argument btw). I think we agree that having only a very easy mode and an extremely hard one is bad. Multiple difficulty settings are always a good thing. All I'm saying is; why not add a couple more settings while you're at it.

Let's speculate a bit. Say ME3 drops the defense system and uses the ME1 insane HP system for Insanity difficulty. They also multiply the number of enemies you have to fight (Insanity only). I would hate having to shoot normal fools 10 times in the head to kill - but I would love those extra waves of enemies, but this system won't allow me to play the game the way I want to.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I'm talking in general (I completely support your ME2-Insanity-without-defenses/godmode argument btw). I think we agree that having only a very easy mode and an extremely hard one is bad. Multiple difficulty settings are always a good thing. All I'm saying is; why not add a couple more settings while you're at it.

Let's speculate a bit. Say ME3 drops the defense system and uses the ME1 insane HP system for Insanity difficulty. They also multiply the number of enemies you have to fight (Insanity only). I would hate having to shoot normal fools 10 times in the head to kill - but I would love those extra waves of enemies, but this system won't allow me to play the game the way I want to.

This is very,very doubtful, they have abandoned ME1's system for a reason..and with the recent wave of "everything is amped up/intense fights/button=awesome" features, I think enemies will not be more durable than those in ME2. But if your speculation proved to be correct, I would not play on Insanity more than a couple of times.

If I were to guess, I think they will keep the core system more or less the same, with enemies pressuring/flanking you more aggressively, and they will likely beef up biotics after the outcry. I just think that adding any toggles to ME2(-like) system serves no purpose..it can only screw things up IMHO.

Modifié par Kronner, 13 avril 2011 - 05:38 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Yeah, I'm hoping for the same thing. More enemies using different tactics who flank and attack you from below and form above etc would be great. I hope the defense-system makes a return (but I'm not completely sure about this - too bad there's nothing in the article about it). Defenses ain't great in many ways, but when it comes to gameplay they work very well - adding another tactical layer to the mix.

P.S. I do mean I'm talking in general. ME3 should not be an experiment imo - test stuff like this in other (irrelevant) games first before messing with the Mass Effect formula!

[Gravbh]

Korjyan wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Every game has only one AI system. The only things that chances when you turn up the difficulty are stats.

Not every game. There are some that have mor differences between difficulties. The most famous ones that come to my mind (because I have played them so much) are the (newer) Ninja Gaiden games. They don't just bump up the stats but you might face more enemies or even completely different ones in certain spots. I remember how I was surprised repeatedly when completely different enemies spawned in a certain spot. Either enemies that were more like rare sub-boss characters on a lower difficulty or even an enemy type that wasn't even in a lower difficulty at all.

The games do have their flaws and balancing issues and even the lower difficulties are too hard for a lot of people but still I think they did a great job there because they actually thought about the difficulty levels a bit more and didn't just bump up all the stats.

Oh god, NG2. I remmeber beating it on normal for the first time and being pretty pleased with myself. Then I died at least 15 times in a row on the very first fight of the next difficulty up. That is one of those games that forces you to truly master the concepts of the game on the harder difficulties, rather than just upping enemy health/damage.  ME2 is similar(though nowhere near as hard thank god). You can get by defenses with raw force if they're only on tougher enemies, but when they're on everything you have to adjust your tactics.

I'd like to see the AI be more aggressive on insanity. The hardest parts of insanity are the parts that force you to move due to an external factor, like shutting down the gates in Garrus' recruitment mission. Most of the time you can just sit behind cover and be careful. If the enemies were more aggressive and would actually flank you, that wouldn't be an option. The halo series did a good job of improving enemy AI for higher difficulties, rather than just upping health/damage.

[XCPTNL]

@ Gravbh: I remember when I started playing Ninja Gaiden how I had so many problems. Then I got better, got into the combat system, got how I have to make constant use of invincibilty frames, got my timings right... it's truly a journey to fight your way up from beating Acolyte mode, Warrior mode, Mentor mode and finally Master Ninja mode. Every time I tried the next difficulty it felt so much harder and early on I always had the feeling I would never make it through. In the end I did beat them all and beating Master Ninja mode is truly the most awesome thing I've ever accomplished (regarding gaming obviously). It feels so good when you beat it and no other game has ever given me that much satisfaction after I beat it. I think it's interesting how these games have such a learning curve and I'd like to see it in more games.

Back to ME2: what did bother me were the invisible walls for some enemies in certain locations. Like on Horizon when the Collectors don't move beyond a certain point. You can basically just hide at one side and they only advance to a certain point.

[termokanden]

NG was too difficult. It was seriously missing a gentle introduction for new players.

ME2 is a different story. I was just playing through LotSB an hour ago with a sentinel on insanity. Energy Drain as a bonus power. They got me once, but that's because I managed to forget I was playing on insanity and ran straight into a room filled with enemies and no cover. Not sure why I did that to be honest. But assault sentinel really makes insanity a joke.

I just wish my beloved Scimitar wasn't so weak on insanity.

[Stardusk78]

termokanden wrote...

NG was too difficult. It was seriously missing a gentle introduction for new players.

ME2 is a different story. I was just playing through LotSB an hour ago with a sentinel on insanity. Energy Drain as a bonus power. They got me once, but that's because I managed to forget I was playing on insanity and ran straight into a room filled with enemies and no cover. Not sure why I did that to be honest. But assault sentinel really makes insanity a joke.

I just wish my beloved Scimitar wasn't so weak on insanity.

Take Grunt or Jacob or Zaeed; Squad Incendiary is AWESOME for the Assault Sentinel...

[termokanden]

That's what I've already been doing.

[naledgeborn]

I "graduated" to Insanity about a year ago. Still not a master at it. I like Hardcore my self but playing a mission flawlessly on Insanity is very rewarding.