240 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieolus]

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Are you seriously saying Saphara that those quotes weren't posted to disrupt discussion of the original post?

[Cybermortis]

Ronin2006 wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

Yeah, except it's really not the same at all! Dragon Age is heading in the right direction whether you like it or not. Sales are not down, in fact their up compared to the first two weeks of Origins sales.

Isn't there a thread that says that the overall trend is that the sales are declining faster in DA 2 than they did for DA O?

The big ME 2 giveaway suggests that perhaps the direction that DA is going in is not the right one.  I don't think we can really judge the sales of DA 2 until well into this year after the initial buy-in period wears off.

Anyway, I could care less how this game sells.  I'm just going to do what many others do, and not buy the next one unless I perceive it to be a good game.  DA 2 was not in my opinion a good game, in fact, in many respects it was downright awful and I only bought it on the back of DA O.

The sales figures we have show that DA2 sold better in its first week - which is to be expected when you have pre-orders cashing in on DAO - then the totals took a nose-dive. In comparision DAO sales increased after the first week.

This can be seen from chart positions, where DA2 has dropped to around number 9 in shop sales and 39 on Amazon. It is currently being outsold on Amazon by DAO (position 29) Mass Effect (27) and Mass Effect 2 (26). The only reason these three games are not higher in the shop charts is because they are not full price games. (That ME2 can be bought for less than DA2 also calls into question the idea that offering ME2 with DA2 will increase sales. Not only is the offer not advertised but you can pick up ME2 for a lot less than DA2.)

We do have estimated sales figures for DA2 from before its release, and calculated from an independent source. These indicate that DA2 was expected to earn around 4.25 million compared to some 4 million for DAO over six months. This would be a reasonable figure, since I can't see Bioware expecting DA2 to do worse than the original game.

As things stand it is hard to see how DA2 could come close to the sales of DAO. I can only hope that someone at Bioware/EA is being asked some difficult questions right now.

[Cutlasskiwi]

I would definitely not call Cutlass Jack's post an attempt at trolling. It was just a simple attempt to point out why the Coke/DA2 comparison might not work.

Edit: Spelling

Modifié par Yellow Words, 11 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[Saphara]

Ieolus wrote...

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Are you seriously saying Saphara that those quotes weren't posted to disrupt discussion of the original post?

maybe the second, as it didnt contribute anything, but certainly not the rest. DAO is not "Old Coke", it wasnt a perfect recipie based on a century of making, it didnt hold the majority of marketshare, and to assumke the game was the godsend of RPGS is plain silly. DA2 is not a failure as a game as it made some pretty good strides but had some pretty big stumbling blocks that could have been fixed with less rushing.

You, however, telling others to stfu and stop talking, are certainly walking that boundary. I regard inflammatory remarks as a much more serious offense than simple offtopic remarks. LOOK IT'S INFINATE JACOBS!!!

Truth be told, people's tendency to blow things out of proportion is what dooms things generally, not that they're actually bad.

Modifié par Saphara, 11 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[Maria Caliban]

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

[Saphara]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

Loud vocal minorities can get things done if they're loud enough. *looks at a certain assembleage of a certain beverage*

[neppakyo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

I remember that as a kid when it happened. I Always thought new coke and pepsi were too sugary tasting, and I liked the classic coke best.

Kinda how I feel about DA2 heh. Too sugary.

[exskeeny]

wow, these are getting more and more inventive.

[Saphara]

exskeeny wrote...

wow, these are getting more and more inventive.

duuuude, it's like a catapillar (DAO) turning into a moth ( DA2) instead of a butterfly. The potential was there, but i am dissapoint!

[neppakyo]

Saphara wrote...

exskeeny wrote...

wow, these are getting more and more inventive.

duuuude, it's like a catapillar (DAO) turning into a moth ( DA2) instead of a butterfly. The potential was there, but i am dissapoint!

haha, that one was pretty good.

[Ieolus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

See, I am perfectly fine with this reply.  Not sure I agree with it since I was there for the New Coke disaster, but atleast it isn't reflexive defense of the game w/o any semblance of discussion of the OP.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ieolus wrote...

Agreed.  Baldur's Gate 2 also has that "2" syndrome... err, wait.

You tried to rebut with that?  "Baldur's Gate 2 was so successful that they never made a Baldur's Gate 3?"  You fail!

[erynnar]

Dubya75 wrote...

Saphara wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

What? People are no longer allowed to like DA2?

Those are your words, not mine.  Mine is stfu and let other people talk w/o you guys jumping down their throats.  The New Coke/DA2 parallel does not need your reflexive defensive input of DA2.

except, a good disscussion cant happen without input from both sides of the fence. Cant really tell others to stfu then expect any kind of rational discussion of only your opinion

Some people can't stand being disagreed with. Better to just let them be...

You sound like you are talking about yourself. Best to take your own advice. As for me, I don't mind being disagreed with. If, however, you are disagreeable the discussion ends (ie no stfu, no name calling from either side). **** away...freedom of speech and all that.

[Ronin2006]

Ieolus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

See, I am perfectly fine with this reply.  Not sure I agree with it since I was there for the New Coke disaster, but atleast it isn't reflexive defense of the game w/o any semblance of discussion of the OP.

Agreed, this is a valid post and response, and quite interesting really.

I would like to add that the failure of New Coke was not as simple as people hating the change being explained by the performance of New Coke in random taste tests.  (Just like the reaction to DA 2 is not just a mere reaction to change; it may be a factor, but it doesn't tell the whole story.)

Firstly, taste testing and sampling is a heavily flawed system.  While a product may test well, other factors such as marketing are paramount.  Despite Pepsi consistently outperforming Coke on random taste tests, Coke has always been backed by a bigger budget, and arguably better marketing, and therefore is the better performer in the market.

In the case of DA 2, the whole "Button = Awesome" was part of what many felt was a woeful marketing campaign.  There are many other areas where I personally felt that the marketing of this game left a lot to be desired, but I don't want to go off on too big a tangent.

Further, there are other issues such as sample bias.  Ultimately, the sample in a taste test must be a fair representation of the target demographic, otherwise the test itself is virtually useless.  Perhaps in DA 2 Bioware was looking at a very loud and vocal minority that wanted DA O overhauled and changed completely, and in the end they severely misjudged the feelings of their overall consumer base?

Lastly, sometimes the test itself is flawed.  Many people like Coke because it is less sweet and sugary than Pepsi.  Now, despite this, Pepsi may still rate better in taste tests because quite simply, sweet things taste better in small doses.  New Coke was much sweeter than Old Coke and perhaps this is why it rated better as people only sample things in small doses.

In DA 2, many things may test well because they are immediatley gratifying, (exploding enemies, "action" combat") but ultimately in big doses, (i.e. a complete play through) this is not as satisfying as the old, less flashy product.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 11 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[Radwar]

Dubya75 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

Yeah, except it's really not the same at all! Dragon Age is heading in the right direction whether you like it or not. Sales are not down, in fact their up compared to the first two weeks of Origins sales.

Yeah and how many of those sales were pre-orders? People like me who pre-ordered based on Bioware's reputation and how great Dragon Age: Origins was. How many won't be making that mistake again?

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...

You sound like you are talking about yourself. Best to take your own advice. As for me, I don't mind being disagreed with. If, however, you are disagreeable the discussion ends (ie no stfu, no name calling from either side). **** away...freedom of speech and all that.

*freedom of speech's erynnar upside the head* 

My freedom of speech is greater than thou's!

[erynnar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

Maybe, maybe not. In my case, I don't mind some changes (and for the millionth time, I don't hate the game), but BioWare fixed what wasn't broken about DAO, and stipped away what was good about it.  All of my, I hope, well thought out and reasonable dislikes, and likes are on the appropriate threads.  As a game on it's own, DA2 isn't horrible, but it isn't really all that good either. The story has more holes than the Blooming Rose, for one. If it was going to be just an action/adventure, it might have sat a little better with me. 

And I for one, was a kid who didn't like New Coke, too funny tasting, too sugary, as Nappakyo said. I wasn't adverse to some new drink with sugar and carbonation that would hype me up and drive my parents batty though. But New Coke wasn't for me. Neither is DA2, sadly.

[erynnar]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

You sound like you are talking about yourself. Best to take your own advice. As for me, I don't mind being disagreed with. If, however, you are disagreeable the discussion ends (ie no stfu, no name calling from either side). **** away...freedom of speech and all that.

*freedom of speech's erynnar upside the head* 

My freedom of speech is greater than thou's!

LOLOL!!!!  *falls over from being smacked in the head with freedom of speech*

[JabbaDaHutt30]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Your comparison fails, because DAO wasn't that great. While fun, it was only a rehash.

Your retort fails, because Dragon Age: Origins was, in fact, a great game.

[Cybermortis]

Ronin2006 wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

See, I am perfectly fine with this reply.  Not sure I agree with it since I was there for the New Coke disaster, but atleast it isn't reflexive defense of the game w/o any semblance of discussion of the OP.

Agreed, this is a valid post and response, and quite interesting really.

I would like to add that the failure of New Coke was not as simple as people hating the change being explained by the performance of New Coke in random taste tests.  (Just like the reaction to DA 2 is not just a mere reaction to change; it may be a factor, but it doesn't tell the whole story.)

Firstly, taste testing and sampling is a heavily flawed system.  While a product may test well, other factors such as marketing are paramount.  Despite Pepsi consistently outperforming Coke on random taste tests, Coke has always been backed by a bigger budget, and arguably better marketing, and therefore is the better performer in the market.

In the case of DA 2, the whole "Button = Awesome" was part of what many felt was a woeful marketing campaign.  There are many other areas where I personally felt that the marketing of this game left a lot to be desired, but I don't want to go off on too big a tangent.

Further, there are other issues such as sample bias.  Ultimately, the sample in a taste test must be a fair representation of the target demographic, otherwise the test itself is virtually useless.  Perhaps in DA 2 Bioware was looking at a very loud and vocal minority that wanted DA O overhauled and changed completely, and in the end they severely misjudged the feelings of their overall consumer base?

Lastly, sometimes the test itself is flawed.  Many people like Coke because it is less sweet and sugary than Pepsi.  Now, despite this, Pepsi may still rate better in taste tests because quite simply, sweet things taste better in small doses.  New Coke was much sweeter than Old Coke and perhaps this is why it rated better as people only sample things in small doses.

In DA 2, many things may test well because they are immediatley gratifying, (exploding enemies, "action" combat") but ultimately in big doses, (i.e. a complete play through) this is not as satisfying as the old, less flashy product.

Well put.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Dubya75 wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Wow, you DA2 defenders need to stfu and let it rest. Consensus is against you guys so stop already; we know you love the New Coke better than the Old Coke (love the parallel) but it failed.

Btw, I think Coca Cola made the New Coke/Coke classic change on purpose to secretly introduce high fructose corn syrup into the cola instead of sugar because it is cheaper. OP, how does that idea work into your theory?

What? People are no longer allowed to like DA2?

I like Dragon Age 2 but to say it's doing better than Origins is preposterous. It's in the low 80's at Metacritic scores, there's a lot of whining about what BioWare did with Dragon Age 2 from the fans, and I doubt it will ever reach the sales Origins had.

[erynnar]

Ronin2006 wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

See, I am perfectly fine with this reply.  Not sure I agree with it since I was there for the New Coke disaster, but atleast it isn't reflexive defense of the game w/o any semblance of discussion of the OP.

Agreed, this is a valid post and response, and quite interesting really.

I would like to add that the failure of New Coke was not as simple as people hating the change being explained by the performance of New Coke in random taste tests.  (Just like the reaction to DA 2 is not just a mere reaction to change; it may be a factor, but it doesn't tell the whole story.)

Firstly, taste testing and sampling is a heavily flawed system.  While a product may test well, other factors such as marketing are paramount.  Despite Pepsi consistently outperforming Coke on random taste tests, Coke has always been backed by a bigger budget, and arguably better marketing, and therefore is the better performer in the market.

In the case of DA 2, the whole "Button = Awesome" was part of what many felt was a woeful marketing campaign.  There are many other areas where I personally felt that the marketing of this game left a lot to be desired, but I don't want to go off on too big a tangent.

Further, there are other issues such as sample bias.  Ultimately, the sample in a taste test must be a fair representation of the target demographic, otherwise the test itself is virtually useless.  Perhaps in DA 2 Bioware was looking at a very loud and vocal minority that wanted DA O overhauled and changed completely, and in the end they severely misjudged the feelings of their overall consumer base?

Lastly, sometimes the test itself is flawed.  Many people like Coke because it is less sweet and sugary than Pepsi.  Now, despite this, Pepsi may still rate better in taste tests because quite simply, sweet things taste better in small doses.  New Coke was much sweeter than Old Coke and perhaps this is why it rated better as people only sample things in small doses.

In DA 2, many things may test well because they are immediatley gratifying, (exploding enemies, "action" combat") but ultimately in big doses, (i.e. a complete play through) this is not as satisfying as the old, less flashy product.

I loved the smaller doses comparison for DA2. The recycled dungeons, short constant quests, the running from arrow to arrow, waves of bad guys every 30 ****ing seconds, the exploding blood balloons (well maybe not this one even in small doses) all fine in small doses. And still with DA2 being a shorter play through than my DAO, I still had to play DA2 in smaller stretches because all of those things bothered me so much.  It made the game tedious to play. I know some felt that way about DAO. But for me, if DAO had all of those things I mentioned previously with 100+ hours playthrough I never would have finished it. I am had enough trouble finishing DA2.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

It's a bit... venturesome to reduce the criticism of the changes Dragon Age 2 brings to a mere reactionary level of response from the fanbase.