240 réponses à ce sujet

[rak72]

I actually did my own blind taste test when the new coke came out - Pepsi vs CC vs new Coke.
I picked Coke classic.

[Cutlass Jack]

Yellow Words wrote...

I would definitely not call Cutlass Jack's post an attempt at trolling. It was just a simple attempt to point out why the Coke/DA2 comparison might not work.

That's exactly it.

I probably should have elaborated. But basically the only point where the comparison works is on the 'new one is different than the old one and some folks don't like it' level. But to try and compare it to a blunder on the scale of New Coke is just silly.

Dragon Age 2 did not throw away a decade spanning formula of Dragon Age games. It only had one other game in the series. And an Expansion, which arguably felt closer to the New Coke analogy, since we were told that blind taste tests determined Oghren was our favorite companion.


If I might do your homework for you, allow me suggest something midway between New Coke and Dragon Age 2 for you to make your next comparison thread on. That being the D&D 4.0 rules.

And for the record, I prefered classic Coke to new.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 11 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[Paladin Lil Pup]

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

http://www.thecoca-c...re_newcoke.html

Hi GRJ,

First of all... can you tell me where I can get some of these Coke 2?  As a coke fan I really want to try it xD, I probably won't like it but want to try it anyway... I read in wiki they still have some in American samoa.... you don't happen to be from there are you? .

As for your comparison however I think it's misplaced as it give Bioware/EA too much credit by saying that they messed with a good thing...  I don't think that's what happened at all... I believed (and I'm sure a lot of Bioware old fan feel the same way) that DA2 is just a lazy product from them, a lot of cutting corners and a lot of over simplifying to reach broader market... so no, I don't think they changed their formula to help pick their game up... I believe they cut corners to save money from hiring more staff to do the excellent job that bioware used to do. 

Just my 3cents

[Xanfaus]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

It's a bit... venturesome to reduce the criticism of the changes Dragon Age 2 brings to a mere reactionary level of response from the fanbase.

I agree with this point completely. Some representatives of Bioware and a fair amount of DA2 defenders have tried to make it seem like the only reason that people dislike DA2 is because its isn't like Origins or [insert old RPG here]. Discounting the bugs, one of which spoiled Merrill's quest for me my very first time through the game, the game itself just seems incredibly underdeveloped. DA2 is a game filled with interesting ideas that are never fully realized or explored. Principal of which is the city of Kirkwall itself which is static and devoid of life, and remains so over the course of seven-ish years.

Other than Origins and Planescape (and a tiny amount of Fallout 2), I have never played any of the old school RPGs. I got Origins as a gift since it was a new Bioware RPG and I figured it had to be worth at least a playthrough or two. I ended up greatly enjoying the story, the world, and the characters enough that I pre-ordered DA2 thinking that sure it might be more action-y, but the story will be just as good or better than Origins. Unfortunalely, not only was the story less than entralling, the game is buggy, reused assets are everywhere, and the game seems downright hostile towards player choice in both style and substance. I ended up more disappointed with this game than Fable 2 and 3 combined. I glad some enjoyed DA2, but other than parts of Act 2 and the companions (for the most part at least), playing through the game was not a pleasurable experience.

[randName]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Your comparison fails, because DAO wasn't that great. While fun, it was only a rehash.

And Coca Cola is so great?

[Merced652]

Dubya75 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

Yeah, except it's really not the same at all! Dragon Age is heading in the right direction whether you like it or not. Sales are not down, in fact their up compared to the first two weeks of Origins sales.

Thats not like your opinion or anything. 

[randName]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Because cola and videogame development have everything in common. I'm pretty sure there weren't decades of earlier Dragon Age games that stuck to exactly the same formula.

Just putting that out there.

It is similar, since BioWare have had a following of a certain type of gamer, and while I agree that its not the same, there is enough in the OP to warrant a thought and a playful comparison.

DA:O played on a core group of people that loved games like BG and games like it, but also brought along players of other BioWare games, and non BioWare games, then they decided to change it up, those did riot a bit, as can be seen on the forums.

And I do think BioWare alientated too many of the old crowd with DA2, while not brining enough new people to be pleased with DA2.

[happy_daiz]

It occurred to me reading these posts that we all seem to have forgotten just how buggy DAO was when it came out. I can recall several instances where NPCs were missing half of their bodies, or companions would get stuck in different locations. Heck, I even remember my own character getting stuck on the side of a hill by a bush, and having to reload the game. Was it a deal-breaker for me? No way. An annoyance, yes, but not a deal-breaker. DA2 is kind of the same way for me. Some things annoy me, but I am confident that BioWare will make these things right, eventually.

I personally was a little taken aback by the changes in DA2 at first, and was even resistant to them for a time. After giving it a real chance, I can say that there are lots of aspects of DA2 that I like better than in DAO. Each game has its strengths and its weaknesses, but the bottom line is - were you entertained?

To weigh in on the Coke discussion, I think the biggest issue with the die-hard Coke fans was the lack of communication and choice. Personally, I was a Pepsi fan, so I wasn't really affected, but I do remember how upset people got about it.

Just for giggles, do any of you remember Crystal Pepsi? 
 

[simonc4175]

Ieolus wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

What? People are no longer allowed to like DA2?

Those are your words, not mine.  Mine is stfu and let other people talk w/o you guys jumping down their throats.  The New Coke/DA2 parallel does not need your reflexive defensive input of DA2.

Kettle, Pot, Black comes to mind.

People who like the game should be to discuss it without the "haters" jumping down their throats.

Live and let live, it's only a game.

[Amioran]

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

http://www.thecoca-c...re_newcoke.html

You know, for one time, only one time, in my life I would like to see an intelligent remark. Sadly, it never happens.

A) The two things are completely different firstly because Coca-Cola is a formula in itself, while DA is not a formula in itself but it is a part of the already existent RPG one. Now, however, the RPG formula is much more ample in terms than the Cola one is.
The "new" formula of Cola didn't fail because the move was wrong, but because they have mistaken the time. They thought the stale was because of a needed change, when instead it was because of a new trend.  In fact, other Cola formulas have done extremely well later, as the one without sugar etc.
C) The only real similarity is that, indeed, bad word mouth existed either there, done by people that didn't want Coke to change. This, in fact, is the only comparision between the two, and actually TOTALLY THE CONTRARY (and providing the contrary point) of what you were trying to prove.

So, if you want to make comparisions at last learn to: 1) quote facts as they are instead of wanting to see what you want in them, and 2) comparisions to be intelligent must have at last a point in common, the context; in this case this point is completely missing so your comparision failed from the start.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[Amioran]

Frek wrote...

There's a big difference between the word "similiar" and "exactly". The OP said the new coke thing is "similiar" to the DA2 and DAO situation. He didn't say it's exactly the same thing. It is similiar? Yes, in both cases you have a company changing their product drastically and customers upset about it. Some of you fail miserably at reading comprehension, either that or you just like being disagreeable and picky for the fun of it.

A) It's not similar, at all, the context is COMPLETELY different.
Good job on telling others they lack comprehension when you are the first one to obviously lack the same.

[randName]

Saphara wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree that Dragon Age II is a great deal like New Coke. I suspect that the majority of people who disagree don't understand how very little of the reaction to New Coke was based on how good or bad New Coke was. Until they stopped making it in 1990s, New Coke continued to consistently beat both Coke and Pepsi in taste tests. The reaction to New Coke was because there was a core group of people who hated the idea of Coke changing.

Loud vocal minorities can get things done if they're loud enough. *looks at a certain assembleage of a certain beverage*

It's not only about it being loud, its also that if BioWare, or Coca Cola loses the core consumers they need to bring in as many just to make even, and since the new hearts won't be as faithful as the old they need to work harder to keep them around.

Losing the old thus be worth it, but it wasn't for Coca Cola, lets see if the similarity contiues with BioWare as well.


Now I'm not the core audience for BioWare, as I only bought BG1,2,TB, NWN and ME1,2 and DA1,1A and 2 at full price, while waiting for DLC packages, and in the case of the games from NWN to ME1 they were all bought on discount, save Sonic that I never bought.

So that I'm about to wander off somewhere else isn't surprising, and not a big loss, but if those that have been with BioWare through out decide to wander off? 

[Amioran]

Ronin2006 wrote...
The big ME 2 giveaway suggests that perhaps the direction that DA is going in is not the right one.  I don't think we

Since people as you are so sure that DA2 is so bad and doesn't work why don't you do a thing?

Stop telling your friends that it sucks and let they decide for themselves. This should not be necessary if people were able to think with their own minds, but, sadly, in this world 80% of people would never be capable of doing a thing like that neither if their life depended on it.

So, why people as you don't stop giving bad word mouth to the game and see what people REALLY think? If you are so sure the game is bad you should not have problems with it, yet, as you see, people continue to tell others the game sucks and this obviously doesn't let the game have a fair judgement.

After you have done this we will see if the game will be really "bad" or not. Want to bet?

[Merced652]

Amioran wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...
The big ME 2 giveaway suggests that perhaps the direction that DA is going in is not the right one.  I don't think we

Since people as you are so sure that DA2 is so bad and doesn't work why don't you do a thing?

Stop telling your friends that it sucks and let they decide for themselves. This should not be necessary if people were able to think with their own minds, but, sadly, in this world 80% of people would never be capable of doing a thing like that neither if their life depended on it.

So, why people as you don't stop giving bad word mouth to the game and see what people REALLY think? If you are so sure the game is bad you should not have problems with it, yet, as you see, people continue to tell others the game sucks and this obviously doesn't let the game have a fair judgement.

After you have done this we will see if the game will be really "bad" or not. Want to bet?

Deja vu, its like when we had the demo and people told us not to judge it based on that.. i.. i feel light headed. 

[Amioran]

randName wrote...
Losing the old thus be worth it, but it wasn't for Coca Cola, lets see if the similarity contiues with BioWare as well.

Yes, let's see, but FAIRLY.

As I said the judgement isn't fair because there are a lot of imbeciles that continue to say "don't buy it, it sucks" to others, and since the majority of people, sadly, cannot either understand what "thinking with your own mind" means, they will accept that judgement without either trying for themselves.

If this trend would change and idiots would stop bashing the game to friends and let them decide for themselves maybe we will have A TRUE picture of what people really think.

I repeat: if people are so sure that the game is a failure why they continue bashing it to no end? If I know something is bad I don't need to tell others it is since I know intelligent people (or who know of what they are talking about) will understand it by themselves.

[Amioran]

Merced652 wrote...
Deja vu, its like when we had the demo and people told us not to judge it based on that.. i.. i feel light headed. 

Yes, yes, deja vu.

I repeat: if you are so sure the game sucks why do you continue telling others the same? Have you fear that they will think differently? This speaks volumes already of what the matter really is, isn't it?

[Merced652]

Amioran wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
Deja vu, its like when we had the demo and people told us not to judge it based on that.. i.. i feel light headed. 

Yes, yes, deja vu.

I repeat: if you are so sure the game sucks why do you continue telling others the same? Have you fear that they will think differently? This speaks volumes already of what the matter really is, isn't it?

That i think the games bad and i'm bored at work? VOLUMES.

[Lord_Valandil]

Dubya75 wrote...

Yeah, except it's really not the same at all! Dragon Age is heading in the right direction whether you like it or not. Sales are not down, in fact their up compared to the first two weeks of Origins sales.

Haha. Yeah, in the right direction to destroy the franchise.
Sales are not down? Perhaps you can provide us proof instead of words.

[Amioran]

Merced652 wrote...

Amioran wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
Deja vu, its like when we had the demo and people told us not to judge it based on that.. i.. i feel light headed. 

Yes, yes, deja vu.

I repeat: if you are so sure the game sucks why do you continue telling others the same? Have you fear that they will think differently? This speaks volumes already of what the matter really is, isn't it?

That i think the games bad and i'm bored at work? VOLUMES.

No, that you know already that people would like it and so you do all the possible to not let that happen. This would be fine if you acknowledged it, but, instead, you act smart and say that people don't like it because they don't buy when you know exactly why this happens and that in 80% of cases it is not a thing having to do with a PERSONAL judgement of the game.

Playing smart is fine, but when you act smart with an air of elitism then the facade breaks.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2011 - 06:05 .

[Merced652]

Amioran wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Amioran wrote...

Merced652 wrote...
Deja vu, its like when we had the demo and people told us not to judge it based on that.. i.. i feel light headed. 

Yes, yes, deja vu.

I repeat: if you are so sure the game sucks why do you continue telling others the same? Have you fear that they will think differently? This speaks volumes already of what the matter really is, isn't it?

That i think the games bad and i'm bored at work? VOLUMES.

No, that you know already that people would like it and so you do all the possible to not let that happen. This would be fine if you acknowledged it, but, instead, you act smart and say that people don't like it because they don't buy when you know exactly why this happens and that in 80% of cases it is not a thing having to do with a PERSONAL judgement of the game.

Playing smart is fine, but when you act smart with an air of elitism then the facade breaks.

People lile S&M too, i don't speak out against it because i don't see the appeal. I also never commented on DA2's sales. Made up statistics are made up, can you illustrate to me how you came across 80%? What facade?

[Xanfaus]

Amioran wrote...

As I said the judgement isn't fair because there are a lot of imbeciles that continue to say "don't buy it, it sucks" to others, and since the majority of people, sadly, cannot either understand what "thinking with your own mind" means, they will accept that judgement without either trying for themselves.

If this trend would change and idiots would stop bashing the game to friends and let them decide for themselves maybe we will have A TRUE picture of what people really think.

I would argue that instead of telling people who you may be friends with and therefore knowledgable of their interests to buy the game and see if they like it, people should instead recommend that they rent the game (on consoles at least). More people buying the game and then hating it is worse than people renting the game and then deciding that they want to buy it.

[Ieolus]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Agreed.  Baldur's Gate 2 also has that "2" syndrome... err, wait.

You tried to rebut with that?  "Baldur's Gate 2 was so successful that they never made a Baldur's Gate 3?"  You fail!

Wow, nice troll.  And you actually had someone defending you on this thread.

[Lord_Valandil]

Amioran wrote...

Yes, let's see, but FAIRLY.

As I said the judgement isn't fair because there are a lot of imbeciles that continue to say "don't buy it, it sucks" to others, and since the majority of people, sadly, cannot either understand what "thinking with your own mind" means, they will accept that judgement without either trying for themselves.

If this trend would change and idiots would stop bashing the game to friends and let them decide for themselves maybe we will have A TRUE picture of what people really think.

I repeat: if people are so sure that the game is a failure why they continue bashing it to no end? If I know something is bad I don't need to tell others it is since I know intelligent people (or who know of what they are talking about) will understand it by themselves.

Games in my country are fairly expensive.
Almost 90 dollars, and just for the standard edition.
If I can prevent a friend to avoid wasting money in a half-assed game, I'd gladly do it. I wouldn't be a good friend if I didn't.
So, instead of DA2 a friend bought Dead Space 2, and he doesn't seem to regret his choice.

He can borrow DA2 from me if he wants to.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 11 avril 2011 - 06:20 .