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DA2 and the New Coke Fiasco of 1985


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#76
Fallstar

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Dubya75 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".;)


Yeah, except it's really not the same at all! Dragon Age is heading in the right direction whether you like it or not. Sales are not down, in fact their up compared to the first two weeks of Origins sales.


Data Analysis Fail.


1. The data we have is unreliable (i.e. not including steam downloads)
2. You can't just pick the first two weeks; based on ALL of the data we have (i.e. 4 weeks) sales are down compared to origins. But then again, see 1. so there is no reason whatsoever to even attempt to draw valid conclusions baout Da: 2 sales

#77
Amioran

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Merced652 wrote...
People lile S&M too, i don't speak out against it because i don't see the appeal. I also never commented on DA2's sales. Made up statistics are made up, can you illustrate to me how you came across 80%? What facade?


"You" was not meant as personal, but in general. This is the trend: people say the game is a failure and quote sales (that we don't either know if they are true or not for sure) as proof when these same individuals know exactly that the motive why this happens is bad word mouth. Yet, a fair judgment for being so must have the parameters not contaminated as in this case.

80% is an estimate of people that don't know how to think with their own minds. Experience tells it much too well, expecially between teenagers. "This sucks" says A and friend of A then don't either try if s/he likes it or not. Go to a school and tell me if more than 2 people out of 10 are capable of thinking with their own heads. If that was the case religion would be a failure from the start.

#78
Amioran

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Lord_Valandil wrote...
Games in my country are fairly expensive.
Almost 90 dollars, and just for the standard edition.
If I can prevent a friend to avoid wasting money in a half-assed game, I'd gladly do it. I wouldn't be a good friend if I didn't.
So, instead of DA2 a friend bought Dead Space 2, and he doesn't seem to regret his choice.

He can borrow DA2 from me if he wants to.


"If I can PREVENT"? If I was your friend I would maybe tell you "thanks for your advice" (while thinking, "don't ever dare you tell me what suck or don't sucks next time or I will kill you") but then will just try it for myself. Sadly this almost never happens.

Are you so sure your friends will not like it as to say that you "prevent them from wasting money"? Who do you think you are, God? How in the hell you know that your friend will waste money because he will not like it? From whence it comes this supposed knowledge of the truth?

Sadly, this is one of the motives the world sucks so much. A lot of people telling others what they should do thinking they know already the truth of the matter, and even worse there are those that either fail to this continued brainwashing. The road  to hell is paved of good intentions, they say.

I repeat another time: if you are so sure a game sucks let your friends decide for themselves. You can tell "I didn't like it", but it's another thing saying "don't buy it because it sucks". The former is an opinion, the second is a judgment, and a veiled imposition.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2011 - 06:31 .


#79
Night Prowler76

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Dubya75 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".;)


Yeah, except it's really not the same at all! Dragon Age is heading in the right direction whether you like it or not. Sales are not down, in fact their up compared to the first two weeks of Origins sales.


One thing you forgot to put, is that DA2 is selling LESS than DAO in weeks 3 and 4 and has TOTAL LESS SALES, given the fact that it had about 400k pre-orders on the back of what DAO did as a game, id say its pretty pathetic, good job spinning an argument in your favour tho,,,

#80
Night Prowler76

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Your comparison fails, because DAO wasn't that great. While fun, it was only a rehash.


Critics and sales disagree with you, so does reality, you fail.

#81
Zem_

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Sareth Cousland wrote...

For those advocating the theory that the fanbase simply dislikes change: ME2 was changed as well (if not as massively as DA2), and it received widespread critical acclaim and sold many more units than its predecessor.


"Consolized!"
"Dumbed down!"
"Inventory gutted!"
"RPG elements removed!"
"Less interesting story!"
"Companion armors gone!"

Quick... which game forum am I getting these complaints from?  DA2 or ME2?

*cues Jeopardy music*

#82
Merced652

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Zem_ wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

For those advocating the theory that the fanbase simply dislikes change: ME2 was changed as well (if not as massively as DA2), and it received widespread critical acclaim and sold many more units than its predecessor.


"Consolized!"
"Dumbed down!"
"Inventory gutted!"
"RPG elements removed!"
"Less interesting story!"
"Companion armors gone!"

Quick... which game forum am I getting these complaints from?  DA2 or ME2?

*cues Jeopardy music*


WHAT IS BOTH? TREBEK?

#83
happy_daiz

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Just a general observation...I'm curious why anyone that loved DAO, and spends as much time on this forum as they obviously do, would bash DA2 at all. Sure, you can have complaints, or annoyances, but handle them constructively and move on.

Personally, I love both DAO and DA2 like they were my own kin, and accept them both for their triumphs and their shortcomings. They are obviously not the same game, but wouldn't it be boring if DA2 was just another long rehash of DAO? I had that feeling with Fallout: New Vegas, and while I loved Fallout 3 (and New Vegas), it really just felt like an extra area to explore, with the addition of factions.

I think BioWare should be commended for going out on a limb, and shaking things up.

#84
Amioran

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Night Prowler76 wrote...
One thing you forgot to put, is that DA2 is selling LESS than DAO in weeks 3 and 4 and has TOTAL LESS SALES, given the fact that it had about 400k pre-orders on the back of what DAO did as a game, id say its pretty pathetic, good job spinning an argument in your favour tho,,,


And again, good job on not purposely acknowledging why this happens, mostly.

Always if those charts are true, then, that we don't either know for sure.

Trend: you are sure the game sucks? Good, then if you are so sure why don't let people demonstrate it? Really, however, for THEMSELVES, with their own minds and judgements, not with your continual "help".

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2011 - 06:41 .


#85
Ieolus

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Amioran wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...
Games in my country are fairly expensive.
Almost 90 dollars, and just for the standard edition.
If I can prevent a friend to avoid wasting money in a half-assed game, I'd gladly do it. I wouldn't be a good friend if I didn't.
So, instead of DA2 a friend bought Dead Space 2, and he doesn't seem to regret his choice.

He can borrow DA2 from me if he wants to.


"If I can PREVENT"? If I was your friend I would maybe tell you "thanks for your advice" (while thinking, "don't ever dare you tell me what suck or don't sucks next time or I will kill you") but then will just try it for myself. Sadly this almost never happens.

Are you so sure your friends will not like it as to say that you "prevent them from wasting money"? Who do you think you are, God? How in the hell you know that your friend will waste money because he will not like it? From whence it comes this supposed knowledge of the truth?

Sadly, this is one of the motives the world sucks so much. A lot of people telling others what they should do thinking they know already the truth of the matter, and even worse there are those that either fail to this continued brainwashing. The road  to hell is paved of good intentions, they say.

I repeat another time: if you are so sure a game sucks let your friends decide for themselves. You can tell "I didn't like it", but it's another thing saying "don't buy it because it sucks". The former is an opinion, the second is a judgment, and a veiled imposition.


I am not sure I understand your outrage.  If there was no word-of-mouth about the quality of a game (or book, movie, etc) then you only would have advertisements and reviews (paid advertisements) to go on.  How is that a good thing for gamers?

Also, it seems you are advocating that everyone should buy every game to try it out for themselves, whether it is good or not, and only find out first hand.  It seems like a huge waste of money in your world.

Btw, do your friends know about your views on how much their opinions matter to you?

#86
Merced652

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Amioran wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...
One thing you forgot to put, is that DA2 is selling LESS than DAO in weeks 3 and 4 and has TOTAL LESS SALES, given the fact that it had about 400k pre-orders on the back of what DAO did as a game, id say its pretty pathetic, good job spinning an argument in your favour tho,,,


And again, good job on not purposely acknowledging why this happens, mostly.

Always if those charts are true, then, that we don't either know for sure.

Trend: you are sure the game sucks? Then let people demonstrate it, really, however, for THEMSELVES, not with your continual "help".


But you wouldn't be advocating this if the game were selling 8 million copies. You'd sit here and tell us it do so soley on its own merrits with no help from word of mouth. I don't get it. :huh:

#87
Ieolus

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Zem_ wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

For those advocating the theory that the fanbase simply dislikes change: ME2 was changed as well (if not as massively as DA2), and it received widespread critical acclaim and sold many more units than its predecessor.


"Consolized!"
"Dumbed down!"
"Inventory gutted!"
"RPG elements removed!"
"Less interesting story!"
"Companion armors gone!"

Quick... which game forum am I getting these complaints from?  DA2 or ME2?

*cues Jeopardy music*


Very true, but what is the difference between an ME2 and a DA2?  Lets see... Mass Effect series, a shooter game with role playing elements, Dragon Age series, an old-school RPG ala BG series (supposedly).

Now, is it not conceivable to see different reactions from the fans of the different genres/series when both ME2 and DA2 get the same "dumbed down" treatment?

#88
Ieolus

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And again, another thread derailed by the reflexive defensive DA2 lovers. I tried to head it off, but they are persistent.

#89
Cybermortis

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My friends know me, they know the types of games I like and how I think. If I tell them that a game isn't worth buying they are quite capable of taking my opinion into consideration and deciding if they should buy that game or not.

Nine times out of ten if I've told them a game is bad and they buy it anyway, they usually agree I was right. The one out of ten times this hasn't been the case is with types of games they know I'd dislike anyway. The reverse is true as well, in that I am quite capable of taking a friends opinion on a game into account and deciding if their views are down to a bad game or one that they simply wouldn't like anyway.

By the logic given above if one of my friends is about to pick up a plate that has been in the oven for six hours I should let them. Then while we wait in the ER explain that it was their choice and I had no right to stop them.

Modifié par Cybermortis, 11 avril 2011 - 06:52 .


#90
Amioran

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Ieolus wrote...
I am not sure I understand your outrage.  If there was no word-of-mouth about the quality of a game (or book, movie, etc) then you only would have advertisements and reviews (paid advertisements) to go on.  How is that a good thing for gamers?


You know, there's a word called "equilibrum". A thing is trying to give advice to people you know or telling "I didn't like it", another completely different is beginning posting in forums giving 1/2/3 to a game, spamming "the game sucks don't buy it" over and over, then telling all your friends to avoid the game as the plague because it's the worst thing ever happened, that they would waste their money and whatever and so on.

If you give an advice is not an imposition. If it becomes an imposition then you are making a slave of the person you are giving the same. And, sadly, this works, mostly.

Ieolus wrote...
Also, it seems you are advocating that everyone should buy every game to try it out for themselves, whether it is good or not, and only find out first hand.  It seems like a huge waste of money in your world.


Do you think more a "waste" being a slave of the opinion of others or just "wasting" 60$? I don't know you but I prefer my liberty.

Then I'm not advocating everyone to buy the game. You can rent it if you have a console, and if you have a PC and own the game you can let your friend who you told that it "sucks" to try it, isn't it?

Ieolus wrote...
Btw, do your friends know about your views on how much their opinions matter to you?


My friends are much more intelligent than that, and either much more ruthless. I would never permit to tell them what they should do. If I'm asked for an advice I reply, but I never impose. If I will dare to do it and then that friend would find out that I was wrong (for him/herself) I will not have nothing to say if I will find myself in the grave next morning.

#91
Ronin2006

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Amioran wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...
The big ME 2 giveaway suggests that perhaps the direction that DA is going in is not the right one.  I don't think we


Since people as you are so sure that DA2 is so bad and doesn't work why don't you do a thing?

Stop telling your friends that it sucks and let they decide for themselves. This should not be necessary if people were able to think with their own minds, but, sadly, in this world 80% of people would never be capable of doing a thing like that neither if their life depended on it.

So, why people as you don't stop giving bad word mouth to the game and see what people REALLY think? If you are so sure the game is bad you should not have problems with it, yet, as you see, people continue to tell others the game sucks and this obviously doesn't let the game have a fair judgement.

After you have done this we will see if the game will be really "bad" or not. Want to bet?



Pfft, your post is flatout wrong because it's grounded on a false assumption about me, my intentions, and why I'm here and what I'm doing, and ultimately everything I've ever posted on this forum.  I don't even know where to begin on a post as nonsensical, illogical and unfounded as yours, but let's try shall we?

I'm assuming that English is your second language, so perhaps you won't understand a lot of this, but try to read it out. 

First, where you have quoted me.  You do realise that I am referring specifically to the sales of the game (which appear to be dwindling) and Bioware's subsequent reaction to those dwindling sales?  This is something that has occurred irrespective of my own individual opinion on this game and how it plays.  Instead, I have taken a fact (declining sales after the first two weeks, plus the ME 2 giveaway) and put in my interpretation of it (the interpretation is my opinion based on fact).

So despite you bringing into question my opinion of this game , it's quite apparent that you can't actually argue on topic by pointing to facts, or the substantive content of my posts, or the basis for my opinion. Instead you simply appear to dislike me, my opinion, and anyone with difference of opinion.  This is quite an abhorrent approach to take on these forums and demonstrates an utter lack of reasoning and logic behind anything you bring up.

Now, about the idea that I shouldn't tell people what I think of the game and let them decide for themselves.  Wow, just wow.  Worst idea of the year right there.  Firstly, I hope you realise that the only people outside these forums with whom I tell of my disappointment are people who haven't yet bought the game.  There are so many arguments against what you said right there, I'm just going to have to list *some* of them:

  • People can certainly make up their own minds on whether they buy a game.  However, sometimes they would rather listen to a fellow customer who has bought the game rather than the Bioware/EA marketing team to make up their minds.   Further, some customers also don't like to listen to or read a lot of critical reviews as their impartiality is at best, questionable.  I have no motivation to tell people that this game is bad other than the fact that I played it, beat it, and honestly felt that it was bad.  Remember, word of mouth is often considered the best form of marketing, and for good reason.  I personally would much rather hear the opinion of a game through word of mouth than anywhere else.  See this?  People *can* make up their own minds, and in doing this they often would rather listen to other people that they trust, than any other source. Sure, they can play it for themselves, but they’ll have to buy it first, and many aren’t willing to do that without some other input. To me that’s what a smart buyer does. I pre-ordered this game and have regretted it ever since.

  • I know I've mentioned this before somewhere, but this is a free market where money is exchanged for goods and services.  Where an individual exchanges money for a good, they want that good to represent a fair trade for their money.  Where this doesn't occur, they can either: seek a refund, complain to the other party in the trade (Bioware/EA) and other customers, or do nothing.  (They can do other things but this keeps it brief)  Now ultimately, as part of a free market with freedom of speech, I have every right to complain about a product I disliked and didn't believe represented a fair trade for my money.  I also have every right to tell other customers just how I feel about this product.  I, in this instance, am choosing to exercise that right and telling Bioware and other DA 2 customers just how I feel about this product. While you are entitled to dislike that I am doing this, you have no right to question whether I should be allowed to do so.

  • The *only* person I have ever actually tried to convince not to buy this game was my cousin.  He had in fact bought the first game, loved it and played it over 100 hours, and asked me if he should get the second.  I could not in good faith recommend it to him knowing what they had done to the franchise and knowing his taste in games.  Now, if he ends up buying DA 2 and liking it, I won't argue with him on the merits of it, I'll just be astonished and downright flabbergasted.  I wasn't at all trying to hurt the sales of the game, just trying to warn a fellow customer and relative/friend about what I think would be a good choice. Remember, we all value our hard earned money to some extent and we often offer advice to others, not because we want to harm a company, but because we want people to make the right choices for themselves.

  • If you read everything I've typed up in this forum, I've never actually tried to convince someone who has actually played this game that it's bad.  I know *some* people like this game, and I have always acknowledged this. However, I will tell these people why I dislike it and respectfully disagree with their stance, but I will not try to force my opinion on them in any way. You make some very strange assumptions here about me and what I am doing and they are all wrong.

[*]God, this is getting long, and I better wrap it up, though believe me there is a lot more I could say when I see a post as insanely poorly considered as yours. Anyway, while I understand you won’t ever agree with me on this game, you do need to face the truth, and that is that many people dislike this game and are expressing their dissatisfaction.  Nothing you say or do will change that, or change the way this game has already been received.

[*]Oh and lastly, your 80% statistic is erroneous. People can make up stats to prove anything. 14% of people know that.

[*]Edited a few times for formatting, which still doesn't seem to be right.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 11 avril 2011 - 07:01 .


#92
Amioran

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Ieolus wrote...

And again, another thread derailed by the reflexive defensive DA2 lovers. I tried to head it off, but they are persistent.


I'm not a DA2 "lover", as you put it. But I know, people as you are usually either so bigot than they have always to think that if a thing is not white than it must be black.

I'm only advocating liberty of judgment, a thing you obviously have not the slightest idea of what it is.

More, I'm telling yoiu that since you are so sure the game is bad then why don't you just let other form their opinions? You know, usually when you try to impose your view to someone else is because, fundamentally, inside you, you know that that particular view (or some part of it) it's wrong.

#93
Maugrim

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I assume you point is that DA2 is the better product that people reject because it's not the exact same thing?

Because New Coke did better in blind taste tests done by the Coca-Cola Company and outside researchers. Research fail.

#94
Merced652

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makenzieshepard wrote...

I assume you point is that DA2 is the better product that people reject because it's not the exact same thing?

Because New Coke did better in blind taste tests done by the Coca-Cola Company and outside researchers. Research fail.


geee

#95
Amioran

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Ronin2006 wrote...
Pfft, your post is flatout wrong because it's grounded on a false assumption about me, my intentions, and why I'm here and what I'm doing, and ultimately everything I've ever posted on this forum.  I don't even know where to begin on a post as nonsensical, illogical and unfounded as yours, but let's try shall we?


Since I assume english is your first language you should know that the subject "you" can be used as both a general and personal term, isn't it? Since if you had used a bit your brain it was obvious that the former was the case your "rant" would have not had much meaning after, isn't it?

As for your "points", I already replied to them to other users. You would want to read them, I don't like repeating myself.

.

Ronin2006 wrote...
Oh and lastly, your 80% statistic is erroneous. People can make up stats to prove anything. 14% of people know that.


In fact I erred on the safe side. As I already said if more people were able to think with their own mind religions would never exists, and religious people are much more than 80% of the population.

Happy?

#96
Ieolus

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Amioran wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

And again, another thread derailed by the reflexive defensive DA2 lovers. I tried to head it off, but they are persistent.


I'm not a DA2 "lover", as you put it. But I know, people as you are usually either so bigot than they have always to think that if a thing is not white than it must be black.

I'm only advocating liberty of judgment, a thing you obviously have not the slightest idea of what it is.

More, I'm telling yoiu that since you are so sure the game is bad then why don't you just let other form their opinions? You know, usually when you try to impose your view to someone else is because, fundamentally, inside you, you know that that particular view (or some part of it) it's wrong.


Actually I don't think I've expressed my opinion on the game so far, atleast in this thread.  I am against the reflexisive defensive posters who can't seem to stay on topic inside any specific thread, and just derail it for their own purposes.

Dragon Age 2 is to New Coke as Origins is to Old Coke.  Discuss.

#97
Maugrim

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Merced652 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

I assume you point is that DA2 is the better product that people reject because it's not the exact same thing?

Because New Coke did better in blind taste tests done by the Coca-Cola Company and outside researchers. Research fail.




geee ...selective bolding

Shush kid

Image IPB

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 11 avril 2011 - 07:01 .


#98
Ieolus

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makenzieshepard wrote...

I assume you point is that DA2 is the better product that people reject because it's not the exact same thing?

Because New Coke did better in blind taste tests done by the Coca-Cola Company and outside researchers. Research fail.


But of course that is why there is no New Coke anymore, and Old Coke lives on in Coca Cola classic.  What was your point again?

#99
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Your comparison fails, because DAO wasn't that great. While fun, it was only a rehash.


Critics and sales disagree with you, so does reality, you fail.


I got what I wanted.  *laps up your tears*  :lol::lol::lol:


Also, 1 million in less time than DAO = better game.  :D:D:D

#100
simonc4175

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Night Prowler76 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Your comparison fails, because DAO wasn't that great. While fun, it was only a rehash.


Critics and sales disagree with you, so does reality, you fail.


PC Gamer(UK) review was that DA:2 surpassed and improved on everything that Origins had.

So not every critic has the same opinion.  So you fail also :D