240 réponses à ce sujet

[Melca36]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Now, now let's keep it civil, everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone needs to understand is that no matter what side of the coin you are on this debate is about a passion for Dragon Age. Those who loved/hated Origins and the same for DA2.

I think that some people are afraid that they are seeing the end of an era as the New RPG replaces the Old and that maybe we want to hold on to what brought us so much pleasure for so many years.

Perhaps we see a blending of gaming genres as something not so good because we feel it strays to far from what is to believed to be an RPG. It may be seen that if we make DA a little more like God of War we can get all those fans to buy DA, and if we make ME more like CoD we can get those consumers too. And you know what maybe they can but at what cost. Does the genre of what an RPG is have to die because of this, does a community of players that have been around since D&D was created have to loose their cherished past time.

I don't know the answer to this, I am not sure anyone does. Change happens it is inevitable.

Its pretty difficult to keep things civil when you are labeled a Hater for rating the  game a 7/8

[KLUME777]

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

http://www.thecoca-c...re_newcoke.html

I agree with you, OP, but theres more to the story. When Coca Cola reintroduced Coke classic, there was an overwhelming positve reaction. Everyone was happy because Coke classic was back.

*wink wink* @bioware

[neppakyo]

So, the next DA game..

Dragon Age: Coke classic ? heee

[erynnar]

Melca36 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Now, now let's keep it civil, everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone needs to understand is that no matter what side of the coin you are on this debate is about a passion for Dragon Age. Those who loved/hated Origins and the same for DA2.

I think that some people are afraid that they are seeing the end of an era as the New RPG replaces the Old and that maybe we want to hold on to what brought us so much pleasure for so many years.

Perhaps we see a blending of gaming genres as something not so good because we feel it strays to far from what is to believed to be an RPG. It may be seen that if we make DA a little more like God of War we can get all those fans to buy DA, and if we make ME more like CoD we can get those consumers too. And you know what maybe they can but at what cost. Does the genre of what an RPG is have to die because of this, does a community of players that have been around since D&D was created have to loose their cherished past time.

I don't know the answer to this, I am not sure anyone does. Change happens it is inevitable.

Its pretty difficult to keep things civil when you are labeled a Hater for rating the  game a 7/8

Oh you get hate for 7 I gave it a 4 . I should be sceered?

[The Minority]

erynnar wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

Now, now let's keep it civil, everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone needs to understand is that no matter what side of the coin you are on this debate is about a passion for Dragon Age. Those who loved/hated Origins and the same for DA2.

I think that some people are afraid that they are seeing the end of an era as the New RPG replaces the Old and that maybe we want to hold on to what brought us so much pleasure for so many years.

Perhaps we see a blending of gaming genres as something not so good because we feel it strays to far from what is to believed to be an RPG. It may be seen that if we make DA a little more like God of War we can get all those fans to buy DA, and if we make ME more like CoD we can get those consumers too. And you know what maybe they can but at what cost. Does the genre of what an RPG is have to die because of this, does a community of players that have been around since D&D was created have to loose their cherished past time.

I don't know the answer to this, I am not sure anyone does. Change happens it is inevitable.

Its pretty difficult to keep things civil when you are labeled a Hater for rating the  game a 7/8

Oh you get hate for 7 I gave it a 4 . I should be sceered?

Be afraid. The fanboys will burn your house to the ground!

[Cutlass Jack]

Melca36 wrote...

Its pretty difficult to keep things civil when you are labeled a Hater for rating the  game a 7/8

Only for coming up with an 8 point rating system. What? Yer too good for 5 and 10 pt systems? You gotta be special?
Grr. Arrgh.

[Amioran]

Ronin2006 wrote...
I've presented my argument, you have presented yours.  But you know what?  You're wrong, and I'm still going to tell people my opinion of this game, and I have every right to do so.  Others will continue to do so, and your attempt at stopping this suggests that you are incredibly stupid and stubborn.  Your attempts at arguing with people here are an exercise in futility.

A) I'm never wrong, above all in these things.
I'm not defending anything, it's just you that cannot extrapolate a concept from the subject.
C) If you tell people your opinion on a thing without them asking you first, then you are actually providing an hidden request for that person to follow what you say, i.e. it's an hidden imposition, with a request for others to do what YOU want them to do (and if they don't, you usually are quite upset). If a friend asks to you for your opinion then you can give it but with a freedom choice, without expecting anything, and nothing more. If you fail to comprehend this simple fact then I'm sorry for you, because you are either a slave of your emotions and you don't clearly comprehend what's happening inside yourself, truly, when you give an "advice".

I don't care either way, I'm just amused at how people think they are free when they are the first ones that continually enslave themselves without either understanding it.

Ronin2006 wrote...
People *do* have the ability to make their minds up themselves, and you telling people that they should play the game first, is just as bad as others telling them that they shouldn't buy the game anyway.  If you want true liberty, then people will make up their mind however they like.  If that's by playing the game first, or by listening to others who have played the game, that's their choice.  It's ironic that you advocate liberty and freedom of choice and opinion, yet you clearly dismiss other people's approaches to that if they aren't in line with yours.

The mass don't have choice. They just go with the direction the group goes. Freedom exists only for the individual, and if you, as an individual, FORCE your "advice" on others then you are feeding the mass mind, and enabling the concept to work on you yourself. If you don't comprehend this simple thing I suggest you to read a little of Nietzsche or Jung. Maybe you will learn something, who knows?

Ronin2006 wrote...
Anyway, this has gotten far too off the rails for my liking.  I would rather from now on keep the thread on topic.  I know you're the type who will probably be chomping at the bit to get the last word in.  Just be assurred that whatever nonsensical garbage you post in reply will ultimately be left with a chuckle and smile from me as I amuse myself to the desperation of your reply.

Poor me, what shall I do?

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2011 - 06:44 .

[Amioran]

BobSmith101 wrote...
If someone who calls you friend asks for an opinion you don't lie to them. If DA2 is getting bad word of mouth it's because the % of people who don't like the game and hold that opinion is higher than the reverse.

I want to see how many people are being "asked" for their opinions, before giving them. I would really like to see. More, I would like to see how many people are saying "I didn't personally like the game" instead of "the game sucks don't absolutely buy it". There's even this guy before that clearly said that if his friend would buy it then he would be really shocked. Do you know what it is this? Wanting others to do what YOU want them to do.

Utopia in practice? It never happens. Let's not play smart, want we? Living in an utopia is fine and good, till it last, then it is just an excuse to don't wanting to see.

[erynnar]

Amioran wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
If someone who calls you friend asks for an opinion you don't lie to them. If DA2 is getting bad word of mouth it's because the % of people who don't like the game and hold that opinion is higher than the reverse.

I want to see how many people are being "asked" for their opinions, before giving them. I would really like to see. More, I would like to see how many people are saying "I didn't personally like the game" instead of "the game sucks don't absolutely buy it". There's even this guy before that clearly said that if his friend would buy it then he would be really shocked. Do you know what it is this? Wanting others to do what YOU want them to do.

Utopia in practice? It never happens. Let's not play smart, want we? Living in an utopia is fine and good, till it last, then it is just an excuse to don't wanting to see.

Pfftt no one has asked me...I must confess, I give it anyway. But beware, the "freedom of speech" can be used to smack you in the head. It's been done to me on this forum. I do try to give it ina constructive, if funny way.:happy:

Though BioWare at least appears to be asking our opinions on their official reviews and constructive crit threads respectively.

Modifié par erynnar, 12 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[Amioran]

erynnar wrote...
Pfftt no one has asked me...I must confess, I give it anyway. But beware, the "freedom of speech" can be used to smack you in the head. It's been done to me on this forum. I do try to give it ina constructive, if funny way.:happy:

It depends on what "freedom of speech" is, and if it is really freedom or just conventional slavery mimicking freedom.

You know, I repeat this always: liberty without ambition serves nothing. If you want to kill time it's much easier that time will kill you (in Aleister Crowley docet).

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[Aradace]

Apples and Oranges OP. You cant really compare the two and expect it to be justified lol. Besides, I happen to like the game personally. The only reason Im not playing right now, is because Im waiting for the damn console patch XD.

[GammaRayJim]

Thanks again for the ongoing debate. Aradace I am comparing changes made to a product and consumer outcries...apples and apples. Never said video games and colas were the same. Taste test showed that some people preferred the taste of New Coke as we are seeing here with DA2. But a majority of the public when it was released hated New Coke they wanted the old formula back. Now I can't say with a definite proof that the majority of gamers want a return to Old DA, but there is a lot of cries for a return.

Amioran while I appreciate your ideas on slavery and opinions, you have clearly stated that I have failed in my comparison, and there was nothing to discuss about it. So that being the case I suggest you start one of your own on opinion giving and the enslavement of society because of it. Thanks in advance.

To everyone else please keep on topic too

[Jamesnew2]

I prefer DA2 thats my opinion. Theirs a lot of people that do like DA2 and a lot of people that like DA2 but prefer origins.... People need to realise that people like diffrent games..... Like ME and ME2 you had oh ME2 is just a shooter.... hell no its one of the best games ever made.... Evolution will happen people will argue..... It wont stop...

Im kind of waiting for a guy to say ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL and ruin my argument....

[TJSolo]

Jamesnew2 wrote...

I prefer DA2 thats my opinion. Theirs a lot of people that do like DA2 and a lot of people that like DA2 but prefer origins.... People need to realise that people like diffrent games..... Like ME and ME2 you had oh ME2 is just a shooter.... hell no its one of the best games ever made.... Evolution will happen people will argue..... It wont stop...

Im kind of waiting for a guy to say ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL and ruin my argument....

This is precisely the new coke v old coke example. There were plenty of people that liked the taste of new coke over old coke, and even the brand Coke was copying, Pepsi. There was also groups of people that did not like old coke becoming new coke. The sales of new coke did not meet the expectactions Coke had after listening to their focus groups and put old coke back on the market only to see it's sales skyrocket past new coke and pepsi.

Games that copy other games are not evovling. Getting better graphics each year is normal for games, not evolution of any sort.

[Aradace]

TJSolo wrote...

Jamesnew2 wrote...

I prefer DA2 thats my opinion. Theirs a lot of people that do like DA2 and a lot of people that like DA2 but prefer origins.... People need to realise that people like diffrent games..... Like ME and ME2 you had oh ME2 is just a shooter.... hell no its one of the best games ever made.... Evolution will happen people will argue..... It wont stop...

Im kind of waiting for a guy to say ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL and ruin my argument....

This is precisely the new coke v old coke example. There were plenty of people that liked the taste of new coke over old coke, and even the brand Coke was copying, Pepsi. There was also groups of people that did not like old coke becoming new coke. The sales of new coke did not meet the expectactions Coke had after listening to their focus groups and put old coke back on the market only to see it's sales skyrocket past new coke and pepsi.

Games that copy other games are not evovling. Getting better graphics each year is normal for games, not evolution of any sort.

As long as you're not so naive as to think that you'll be getting your warden back and/or "voiceless protagonist" in DA3.  It's one thing to want something.  It's a complete other to want something that you know you arent going to get. 

[GammaRayJim]

Assuming Direct Control of Jamesnew2....lol. No you are correct in what you are stating and in some of my follow up post I have tried to state that this is a debate on opinions only. Any data can be spun to prove/disprove almost anything. Hell if you look at the New Coke article it was put out by the Coca-Cola company itself and it has terrific spin on it, but at the time they were public enemy number one. Trying new things, taking chances is a normal part of a sound business plan. Business just has to be prepared for when it fails as well as when it succeeds.
I too have found some of the elements of DA2 to be enjoyable, but I am one of those that is yearning for a return to what is slipping away. Leave genres alone stop the blending and create new genres if you have to, there will be audiences to buy what is fun and engaging. Everyone is going for more market share again good business but in the end what kind of products are we left with, mediocre games for the masses.

[Ieolus]

DA:O was a proven formula. Not 100 years proven, but obviously a success in the marketplace. Why Bioware decided to shake things up is something I am very puzzled about. They spent over 5 years developing the DA engine and threw it away after one game. Seems very odd decision with the limited time they had to make DA2, no?

[GammaRayJim]

Aradace wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Jamesnew2 wrote...

I prefer DA2 thats my opinion. Theirs a lot of people that do like DA2 and a lot of people that like DA2 but prefer origins.... People need to realise that people like diffrent games..... Like ME and ME2 you had oh ME2 is just a shooter.... hell no its one of the best games ever made.... Evolution will happen people will argue..... It wont stop...

Im kind of waiting for a guy to say ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL and ruin my argument....

This is precisely the new coke v old coke example. There were plenty of people that liked the taste of new coke over old coke, and even the brand Coke was copying, Pepsi. There was also groups of people that did not like old coke becoming new coke. The sales of new coke did not meet the expectactions Coke had after listening to their focus groups and put old coke back on the market only to see it's sales skyrocket past new coke and pepsi.

Games that copy other games are not evovling. Getting better graphics each year is normal for games, not evolution of any sort.

As long as you're not so naive as to think that you'll be getting your warden back and/or "voiceless protagonist" in DA3.  It's one thing to want something.  It's a complete other to want something that you know you arent going to get. 

I am not looking to get my warden back, I am incredibly happy to allow Bioware to take me on a journey through Dragon Age through a mutlitude of protagonist. I personally think that is a great idea because it opens the door to a multitude of stories. Didn't mind my protagonist to be voiced either. What I mind is the current trend of blending genres. Give me a great RPG not God of War with RPG elements. I loved the God of War series as much as I loved the original DA but for what they brought to there respective genres. I probably would love an action/adventure RPG if that is what it is being packaged and sold as. This was supposed to be an RPG in the true sense of the word like it's predecessor DA:O, that's what it was marketed as. Same Coke package new great taste just doesn't cut it for me anyway.

[TJSolo]

Aradace wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Jamesnew2 wrote...

I prefer DA2 thats my opinion. Theirs a lot of people that do like DA2 and a lot of people that like DA2 but prefer origins.... People need to realise that people like diffrent games..... Like ME and ME2 you had oh ME2 is just a shooter.... hell no its one of the best games ever made.... Evolution will happen people will argue..... It wont stop...

Im kind of waiting for a guy to say ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL and ruin my argument....

This is precisely the new coke v old coke example. There were plenty of people that liked the taste of new coke over old coke, and even the brand Coke was copying, Pepsi. There was also groups of people that did not like old coke becoming new coke. The sales of new coke did not meet the expectactions Coke had after listening to their focus groups and put old coke back on the market only to see it's sales skyrocket past new coke and pepsi.

Games that copy other games are not evovling. Getting better graphics each year is normal for games, not evolution of any sort.

As long as you're not so naive as to think that you'll be getting your warden back and/or "voiceless protagonist" in DA3.  It's one thing to want something.  It's a complete other to want something that you know you arent going to get. 

It is far too early in DA2's life cycle for me to even care to think about what DA3 could be like given EA Bioware's attempt at re-finding their place in the game market. In fact I was using the idea presented in this thread, the new coke,dilemma, to not discuss anything specific about DA2 and DAO as there are plenty of other active threads that do just that.

[Vicious]

DA2 isn't new coke. It had a bunch of good ideas and a bunch of bad ideas, but the deciding factor is the fact that the game is a buggy rush job and anyone can see it.

DA:O is nothing special. DA2 could have been as good, provided they'd taken their time with it. Made it a bit longer. Made the story actually decent.

Alas they didn't.

[Ieolus]

Obviously they were cashing in on the success of Origins, and DA2 really was a classic bait and switch. If DA2 was another IP it would not have as many negatives thrown it's way.
Heck, in my opinion putting the 2 there was a terrible mistake. Dragon Age: Rise to Power fixes a ton of their marketing issues.

[darkshadow136]

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

http://www.thecoca-c...re_newcoke.html

That is a great comparison to what Bioware did with DA2. I just hope Bioware when they decide to re-impliment the original formula, they don't make the Original formula taste different then what it originally did, like what happened to coke. Even when coke went beack to their supposed Original formula, it never tasted the same as it did before they messed with it..

[GammaRayJim]

Interesting concept Ieolus, would changing the II to Rise to Power make it taste better hhhmmmm. Coca-Cola did eventually change the name of New Coke to Coke II, and it still went the way of the dinosaurs. Could a different marketing approach have helped DA2 or Coke unfortunately neither company can go back in time to try something different. I'm kinda glad New Coke failed because I prefer the old formula. Just like I also like Pespi still both colas but neither is now marketed to try and capture the ginger-ale crowd. Sell me a cola as a cola.

[GammaRayJim]

darkshadow136 wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

 While playing the game and reading the forums I was reminded of this industry blunder that occurred 25 years ago. Coca-Cola sales had been dropping for the previous 15years, so in an effort to revitalize the industry and capture market share back from it's competitors Coke decide to change it's formula. A bold move except that it backfired because it put off it's core customers who wanted nothing but the original Coke so a few months later the original recipie was reintroduced as Coca-Cola classic. The attached link is the company spin on what happened but I lived through it and remember it well, the uproar was overwhelming, very similiar to what is happening here. I guess the best message would be "don't mess with a good thing".

http://www.thecoca-c...re_newcoke.html

That is a great comparison to what Bioware did with DA2. I just hope Bioware when they decide to re-impliment the original formula, they don't make the Original formula taste different then what it originally did, like what happened to coke. Even when coke went beack to their supposed Original formula, it never tasted the same as it did before they messed with it..

Your absolutely correct, it never really tasted the same for me either. And although I still drink it, if I have a choice I go for the Pepsi.

[ejoslin]

Heh, regarding the whole "change" thing, I think it's more like this. My anology may be a little off since I don't play sports games, but I'll try.

Say there was this fabulous American football game called "NFL Extravaganza the Awesome." And it was the perfect sports game. AI that was realistic, a little bit of a story as you get to talk to some of the players, the star ones (the ones that were doing the best) actually would do short interviews, an amazing halftime show that actually varied a bit. It was so good that people who normally didn't buy sports games bought it. And then you heard about "NFL Extravanza the Awesome 2" that was touted to have more features, more depth. So you preordered it and when you popped it in, turns out that the developers decided that they wanted to broaden the audience from core sports fans to people who like more story driven games. And completely changed the wonderful, intuitive, in-character UI, made the story elements longer, even including cutscenes from the players lives, adding much more dialog and such. And they even changed the AI so the game was not playing quite so naturally because it just wasn't as accessible to non-sports-game players. Problem is, the reviewers who are into sports games would pan it, and the people who aren't into sports games would just play the genres they like. Wouldn't it have made more sense to make another sports game, but make it even better, and hopefully it would be good enough to draw in people who normally don't play that genre?

Or maybe I'm just talking out my ass. It just seems that people who like DAO and don't like DA2 much aren't AFRAID of change -- they like a genre and want to continue playing games in that genre.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 avril 2011 - 04:17 .