240 réponses à ce sujet

[Cybermortis]

Ieolus wrote...

Cybermortis wrote...

The thing is that there is no reason WHY RPG's need to be 'dumbed-down' for consoles in the first place. Do games designers think console users get confused if given more than two choices?

Some of it might be a thought that the console demographic is younger.  But I think the biggest detriment is the input device.  Console controllers are just not as able as a keyboard and mouse for playing a game like DA:O.

There are what? 11 buttons plus two joysticks on the X-Box 360 controllers?

I don't know about other gamers but I don't usually use half that many buttons when fighting in DA:O.

Again, there is no reason why the controls have to be 'dumbed down' for console users.


In any case I was talking about gameplay rather than controls. There is nothing about RPG's that consoles can't handle - or shouldn't be capable of handling. Nor is there anything about console users that should lead anyone to think they are less capable or willing to sit down and play games that move more slowly and require thought.

The younger demographic, btw, doesn't hold up for games like DA2 due to their age rating anyway.

The only conclusions I can come up with is that someone seems to think console users are either too stupid to deal with more than yes-no options. Or they have such a short attention span they will simply not be capable of remembering the start of any conversation that lasts longer than 10 seconds. 

I wonder if any of the marketing people have considered that if their research is pointing in this direction, it may be because most console games have as much depth as a dried up puddle. It would be similar to concluding that everyone wanted red cars, when you could only buy cars that are painted red.

[Haexpane]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

erynnar wrote...

 He trolls other threads calling himself a real fan and the rest of us who don't agree losers. He has delusions of grandeur thinking he is the one who decides who the "real fans" are, as say opposed to us making that decision for ourselves. I prefer to call all of us "real fans" whether we agree or not,  but that is in my own little head. I leave whether you think you are up to you. Don't feed the troll, Haexpane.

They aren't delusions!  I am grand.  I am a grand piano.  And this grand piano is amused that you're hating on a great experience.  A game that peels all the RPG tropes that never one tickled my ivories and tossed them out.  Any video game that brings gameplay closer to cinema is put and total win.  Movie level story, movie level action, and movie level fun that I control.  That's the Platonic Video Game!

And then along come these people whining that DA2 isn't a DAO/NWN/BG2 rehash.  I think you can see who I think is the troll. ;)  But I take it at face value you honestly believe what you believe.  ;)

I stand by the idea that there are far, far more people who enjoyed DA2 than did not.  ^_^

Umm I don't think you understand what the deal is here.  It's quite possible to ENJOY a game and also be VERY DISAPPOINTED by how much of a step down it is.

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

Not everything is zero or one.

[Haexpane]

Jamesnew2 wrote...
 .... Like ME and ME2 you had oh ME2 is just a shooter.... hell no its one of the best games ever made.... Evolution will happen people will argue..... It wont stop...

 ...

Evolution is not making everything better.  This is a giant misconception with evolution.  Evolution is basically, whatever survives best, and can make babies spreads out like rats or pigeons or humans and dominates everything else until it destroys itself and something else takes over.

That is what is happening here.  "Evolution" in gaming = "remove anything that seems nerdy, replace it LULZ guns or LULZ choose your own ADVENTAH! + LULZ respawning endless enemies + linear narrow hallway crawls for level design because that's what sells (COD black ops)

What "survives" in the gaming industry today are fast selling mass market games that spawn sequels "babies" that can be cranked out every 15 months.  

Everything else dies (iPad we will consider another planet for now)

Every publisher looks at Call of Duty Black Ops, they look at friggin Charlie Sheen on national TV talking about COD, COD in movies, on youtube.. it's friggin everywhere... Every publisher looks at that and says "ME WANT!"  then they look at their developers and say "WHAT U GONNA DO ABOUD ME WANT?"

Fear, loathing, and respawning enemies happen next.

[Haexpane]

Sen4lifE wrote...
 

Don't get me wrong, I love DA2, but just because you want something to be doesn't make it so.

This is a lesson lost on the internet. 

Example # 1.    The thousands upon thousands of people who were "100% Sure Halo 1.5 is happening!"

[TUHD]

And eventually, devs and publishers wondering why their games aren't being sold anymore.

[Haexpane]

Cybermortis wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

Cybermortis wrote...

The thing is that there is no reason WHY RPG's need to be 'dumbed-down' for consoles in the first place. Do games designers think console users get confused if given more than two choices?

Some of it might be a thought that the console demographic is younger.  But I think the biggest detriment is the input device.  Console controllers are just not as able as a keyboard and mouse for playing a game like DA:O.

There are what? 11 buttons plus two joysticks on the X-Box 360 controllers?

I don't know about other gamers but I don't usually use half that many buttons when fighting in DA:O.

Again, there is no reason why the controls have to be 'dumbed down' for console users.


In any case I was talking about gameplay rather than controls. There is nothing about RPG's that consoles can't handle - or shouldn't be capable of handling. Nor is there anything about console users that should lead anyone to think they are less capable or willing to sit down and play games that move more slowly and require thought.

The younger demographic, btw, doesn't hold up for games like DA2 due to their age rating anyway.

The only conclusions I can come up with is that someone seems to think console users are either too stupid to deal with more than yes-no options. Or they have such a short attention span they will simply not be capable of remembering the start of any conversation that lasts longer than 10 seconds. 

I wonder if any of the marketing people have considered that if their research is pointing in this direction, it may be because most console games have as much depth as a dried up puddle. It would be similar to concluding that everyone wanted red cars, when you could only buy cars that are painted red.

100% correct.  The PS3 users are not proven to be any younger than PC players.  I play a LOT Of PS3 online (DCUO) and I've yet to run into any children.  Everyone in my league is like 25-40 years old, many of them married with kids.

The most complex RPG of recent memory that I played was

DEMON'S SOULS  PS3 exclusive.  Way harder than DAO, way more complicated, the RPG systems were unique, in depth and required a lot of trial and error or internet research to master.

It is also a game that is LOVED by those who did not cheese out and think it was "Too hard".  It's really not that hard at all,  Street Fighter IV is 100x harder than Demon's Soul's.

Regardless, one of the most challenging, deep, and unique RPGs of the past 3 years was a LULZ STUPID CONSOLE KIDS exclusive.

Us stupid 30somethings who like to mash buttons that is

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

To you, RPGs are boring item comparisons, shopping and vendoring, and loot grinds.  That's the crap that came out of DAO to make DA2.  If, with those things removed, you don't see the game as an RPG, that's your loss.  There's plenty of RPG nomnomnom in DA2.  :)

I'm not the only one that wins.  Everyone that enjoys good games wins too.

[durasteel]

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

Yeah, I don't get this.  What RPG mechanics were stripped away?  You can't change your companions' clothes... what else am I missing?

Companions having unique clothes and armor alowed them to each have distinct identities and personalities.  I think the game could be improved with some "alternate appearance pack" options, and the default should have changed for each of them every chapter, but overall I thought the companions gained as much as they lost.

Skill points were kind of a joke.  Every one of my DA:O characters skilled up the same except for the rogue, and even that one was a given.  Your character takes persuasion and survival and combat tactics, your companions take crafting abilities.  Simply clicking the "add skill point" button when there is little choice involved isn't much of an RPG mechanic, in my mind.

The real issue with DA2 is that there was not an overarching quest to tie it all together.  The story unfolded like a soap opera, not like an epic saga.  Many of your quests take the form of "crap is happening, survive it."  The end was not satisfying, because Hawke doesn't accomplish something that he has been striving for since the game's intro.  The lesson is that Homer would write better video games than Charles Dickens.

There were secondary issues, like an excess of map repetition, but the big one was the lack of a story chain to link the whole game together.  It was neat that they managed to relate many of the stories to one another to create a context, but overall it lacked a cohesive plot.  The one that you find out about at the very, very end doesn't really count, because it doesn't drive Hawke's actions through the story.

I do think that the game was clearly rushed, like Awakening was.  The end of DA2 really fell apart, turning into a series of meaningless fights for objectives that were not very well defined.  Why did the dude turn into the thing?  That made no sense, other than to give Hawke a "boss fight."

My point is that the flaws in DA2 were its own, and not really an issue of it being different from Origins.  Those differences are a lot easier to identify than the deeper shortcommings of the game, though, so it seems that many players target them as reasons why they were simply not as engaged in the sequel.  There was really no great diminution of RPG content between the two, but that has been adopted as the tag used to express the fact that people simply had more fun playing the first one.

Inventory issues are much improved, and the voiceover was a real plus.  If they put some effort into changing companion appearance over time (but keep it unique), tell an epic narrative, double the size of their QA department, and refuse to release it until it is actually done, then DA3 should be great.

[Ieolus]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

To you, RPGs are boring item comparisons, shopping and vendoring, and loot grinds.  That's the crap that came out of DAO to make DA2.  If, with those things removed, you don't see the game as an RPG, that's your loss.  There's plenty of RPG nomnomnom in DA2.  :)

I'm not the only one that wins.  Everyone that enjoys good games wins too.

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

Modifié par Ieolus, 13 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[erynnar]

Ieolus wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

To you, RPGs are boring item comparisons, shopping and vendoring, and loot grinds.  That's the crap that came out of DAO to make DA2.  If, with those things removed, you don't see the game as an RPG, that's your loss.  There's plenty of RPG nomnomnom in DA2.  :)

I'm not the only one that wins.  Everyone that enjoys good games wins too.

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

This ^. I got so bored trying to figure out if "ring" was better than "ring."

[GammaRayJim]

I will grant you that the story was a major factor in my personal dislike for this game, it did utterly fall apart for me. It could be that because it was such a poorly written story, that for a lot of people, the sense of immersion that they normally get from an RPG wasn't there and hence the outcry. So they look at everything from no overhead camera to items going directly into the junk bin to not be able to dress their companions as streamlined and dumb downed for the masses. Make it taste more like Pepsi as it were.
Durasteel I do have to question though that if you think that game could be improved by an "alternate appearance pack" when all this armor and such is available in game already...I have to wonder about that. It was cited in other posts that in an interview with the lead designer he was noted as saying that they (Bioware) did not like how players of the game attired their companions. I think it is just as silly to see my companions in the same outfits for the 10 years. This issue could have been easily resolved by having some of the armor available in game to be specifically for your companions. And I know there are rune slots and upgrades to purchase but it is not the same when Isabella and gang look the same through out the whole game. Great writing should set identities and personalities not what the person is wearing. I never once confused Lelianna with Zeveran even though they both had on on set of my dragonscale armor. I just made sense to equip them with better stuff because we were fighting for our lives and Fereldan.

[GammaRayJim]

Ieolus wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

To you, RPGs are boring item comparisons, shopping and vendoring, and loot grinds.  That's the crap that came out of DAO to make DA2.  If, with those things removed, you don't see the game as an RPG, that's your loss.  There's plenty of RPG nomnomnom in DA2.  :)

I'm not the only one that wins.  Everyone that enjoys good games wins too.

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

I too found this much more difficult with the added caveat of never having everyone in one place to easily compare and upgrade sooo I pretty much said the hell with it and gave up. Some of them were like you said they had a high star rating but when you actually looked at the stats the were weaker in some cases. Some people don't understand that all of this suff adds to the immersion of an RPG, equipping your companions helps you to care about them as character. Yes I know it's just a game but it is supposed to be the type of game where you feel like you are a part of it and not a casual observer. And this is why it tatse like New Coke to me, I can't stand the taste of it, it has changed too much.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ieolus wrote...

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

Wrong.  The stars gave players a very general guideline.  Junk anything 1-2 stars, glance at the rest.  If that's too hard, you should stay away from a game called "Dragon Age: Origins."  It was hobbled by exactly what you described.  You wouldn't enjoy DAO at all, it had a ton of the crap you and I both hate.

[Ieolus]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

Wrong.  The stars gave players a very general guideline.  Junk anything 1-2 stars, glance at the rest.  If that's too hard, you should stay away from a game called "Dragon Age: Origins."  It was hobbled by exactly what you described.  You wouldn't enjoy DAO at all, it had a ton of the crap you and I both hate.

Wrong again chief.  I enjoyed Origins immensely, and had no issues with its inventory management at all, other than the fact I wish they went with some type of encumbrance system from old D&D, so that you couldn't carry a ton of bulky armor sets at once.

It was way easier in Origins to determine if any random item is "better" than another for any specific companion, if only for the fact that in camp or in a store you could look at each companion instead of just your immediate party.  Major step backwards there from Origins, major.

Your reflextive defense of everything DA2 is well known, and for the most part, quite idiotic especially when it comes to inventory management.  It is pretty indefensible.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Ieolus wrote...

Wrong again chief.  I enjoyed Origins immensely, and had no issues with its inventory management at all, other than the fact I wish they went with some type of encumbrance system from old D&D, so that you couldn't carry a ton of bulky armor sets at once.

Boring.

Your reflextive defense of everything DA2 is well known, and for the most part, quite idiotic especially when it comes to inventory management.  It is pretty indefensible.

Ad hominem, I win, you looooooooose.  I've got plenty of criticism of DA2, 'specially the totally broken lack of a unified spot to manage party loot and that loot drops on mobs.  Both of those things are fail.  However it's an absolute fact that DAO/NWN/BG2's boring loot systems sucked and needs to go the way of unvoiced protags and sprite based games.  That trash stinks, take it out! 

B)B)

[GammaRayJim]

Well Rinpoche you are obviously a New Coke fan, thanks for voicing in here. I did not like the new inventory system or the lack of having an area with all my companions present in order to manage what few items I was able to give to them. Please remember that some people do enjoy equipping their companions with the best possible upgrades, it adds to their immersion. Is there room for both or some better combination of the two possibly. When Coke classic was reintroduced a few months after New Coke, both formulas were sold side by side with different add campaigns.

[Melca36]

erynnar wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

To you, RPGs are boring item comparisons, shopping and vendoring, and loot grinds.  That's the crap that came out of DAO to make DA2.  If, with those things removed, you don't see the game as an RPG, that's your loss.  There's plenty of RPG nomnomnom in DA2.  :)

I'm not the only one that wins.  Everyone that enjoys good games wins too.

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

This ^. I got so bored trying to figure out if "ring" was better than "ring."

Exactly! 
I got tired of finding the same ring or belt over and over and over.  <_<

I will say this...those runes of fortune did work....

I did a test on them... although there seemes to be a heavy bias towards mages when it came to the amount of gold dropped.

[Haexpane]

GammaRayJim wrote...

Ieolus wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

You are correct, DA2 stripped away RPG mechanics from an RPG series, hooray for you and other Dragon Age Effect 2 fans?  

Congrats, you got the RPG gameplay out of RPGs, you win.

To you, RPGs are boring item comparisons, shopping and vendoring, and loot grinds.  That's the crap that came out of DAO to make DA2.  If, with those things removed, you don't see the game as an RPG, that's your loss.  There's plenty of RPG nomnomnom in DA2.  :)

I'm not the only one that wins.  Everyone that enjoys good games wins too.

You are high.  I spent way more time doing "boring" item comparisons, shopping and vendoring in DA2 then I ever did in Origins.  The reason?  Half the items were named ring, ornate ring, demon ornate ring, with absolutely no way to distinguish one from another other than to look at each one, compare them stat by stat, and junk the lesser ones.  The star rating was completely broken as a tool since it made value judgements as to how I should equip my characters and was wrong most of the time.

I too found this much more difficult with the added caveat of never having everyone in one place to easily compare and upgrade sooo I pretty much said the hell with it and gave up. Some of them were like you said they had a high star rating but when you actually looked at the stats the were weaker in some cases. Some people don't understand that all of this suff adds to the immersion of an RPG, equipping your companions helps you to care about them as character. Yes I know it's just a game but it is supposed to be the type of game where you feel like you are a part of it and not a casual observer. And this is why it tatse like New Coke to me, I can't stand the taste of it, it has changed too much.

Yeah people who say things like "So what, you can't change companion armor, or change their weapons, or make them into classes other than what the game wants.. how does that matter"... i mean, what can you respond do that?

They don't even understand what a party based WRPG is.  They don't care, and nothing can make them care.

Oh well, you win again Call of Duty/ Final Fantasy X fans?  

If I have to explain WRPG gameplay mechanics and why they matter, I've already lost.  If I have to explain why Call of Duty respawning enemies in an RPG is lazy and cheap design, I've already lost.  They don't care.

Just like CoD players, they dont NOTICE the flaws, so pointing the flaws out to them is like explaining to someone why paying premium money for crap beer like Bud Lite is ludicrrous, they are just going to ignore you and go buy more Bud Lite

[Haexpane]

There is no such thing as a "new coke fan" It's just a Pepsi fan drinking Coke's version of pepsi.

The crazy thing about Pepsi and Coke is, only in america do we even talk about it. The rest the world doesnt even know what Pepsi is.

It's like Call of Duty / ME2 fans eating up DA2. DA2 is not Dragon Age Origins 2, it's Dragon Age Pepsi

[Cybermortis]

Haexpane wrote...

The crazy thing about Pepsi and Coke is, only in america do we even talk about it. The rest the world doesnt even know what Pepsi is.

Errm, no. We are well aware of Pepsi here in the UK. It isn't anything like as popular as Coke (Coke usually has four to five times as many bottles on the shelves in most stores that stock both), but we do get the comparision.

Heck the guy who wrote Red Dwarf (TV series) back in the late 1980's made a joke of it in the book - for legal reasons they couldn't put this in the show - and he was/is very British.

[JaegerBane]

GammaRayJim wrote...

I will grant you that the story was a major factor in my personal dislike for this game, it did utterly fall apart for me. It could be that because it was such a poorly written story, that for a lot of people, the sense of immersion that they normally get from an RPG wasn't there and hence the outcry. So they look at everything from no overhead camera to items going directly into the junk bin to not be able to dress their companions as streamlined and dumb downed for the masses. Make it taste more like Pepsi as it were.

Good point. For what it's worth many of the 'much maligned' features such as lack of dressing companions etc I personally felt were reasonably well done. I didn't miss the whole armour aspect.

For me, the single biggest thing they did wrong, the 'new Coke' decision as it were, was to create a story that bypassed Hawke. In a game like this, that purports to tell an epic rise to power over a decade, the game absolutely needs an involving storyline to draw the player in. It's fundemental to the game. Instead, we got a half-baked rehash of the same subplot from the first game, complete with cardboard cut-out zealot bad guy and demon-possessed mages, that happened regardless of what Hawke did or didn't do. We'd heard all this before. For such a fundamental issue to have been screwed up, it makes the player regard many of the other features of the game in a negative light, and frankly, there's not a huge amount in DA2 that can stand up to that.

Haexpane wrote...
The
crazy thing about Pepsi and Coke is, only in america do we even talk
about it. The rest the world doesnt even know what Pepsi is.

I dunno. I've always thought the *really* crazy thing is that there are people in the US that still think like this. Rest assured mate, the rest of the world do have such things as Pepsi, cheeseburgers, running water and electricity. The meaning isn't lost on us.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 14 avril 2011 - 10:09 .

[Mad-Max90]

I love how so many biobots are saying "less rpg in a rpg=better, hurr" no it does not equal better, if anything it's just a way to cut corners so they don't spend as much money trying to make a decent game, if this forum has taught me anything it's western gamers are in a sense being dumbed down inch by inch, and they not only acknowledge it they relish in it. I'm 20 years old some people have been gaming longer than I've been alive and it's with those gamers I sympathise with, I might use a console but that does not mean I want everything hand fed to me in an rpg, like I'm some sort of infant gamer who can't pick a side for himself, once dark souls comes out I'm leaving bioware if they continue catering to the handicapped gamer

[Cybermortis]

I might use a console but that does not mean I want everything hand fed to me in an rpg, like I'm some sort of infant gamer who can't pick a side for himself, once dark souls comes out I'm leaving bioware if they continue catering to the handicapped gamer

Well said.

I hope someone at Bioware is taking note of that.

[Mad-Max90]

I'm sorry but if I want to play an action game I'll buy one of the plenty of good action games out, if I want a wrpg I guess I'll have to settle with mass effect 3 if they did bring back some of the rpg elements that they said they were, or skyrim, that does look a little promising even though *gasp* I'm not a huge fan of Bethesda. Don't get me wrong I love all types of games I just don't like it when they merge two genres to produce a subpar game, so next on my list of games will be Brink, the way of the samurai 3, and last but not least gears of war 3, I hope Carmine lives

[GammaRayJim]

Cybermortis wrote...

I might use a console but that does not mean I want everything hand fed to me in an rpg, like I'm some sort of infant gamer who can't pick a side for himself, once dark souls comes out I'm leaving bioware if they continue catering to the handicapped gamer

Well said.

I hope someone at Bioware is taking note of that.

I couldn't agree more, being a 47 year old who came into this gaming thing late in life I probably have a similar game history as you do Mad but I am not incapable of learning or enjoying the challenge and immersion that RPG's usually offer. DA2 moved, to me, more into God of War territory and like I said earlier it could be just because the story was poorly developed. The formula for this game was not what I had anticipated and thus left a bad taste in my mouth. I cared about and looked forward to DA:O, I hated going to work and I rushed home only to play. I actually felt for my Warden and his companions and when I made the ultimate sacrifice I actually cried, the same as I did when I read Lord of the Rings for the first time. That is what a good RPG should do draw you in so you can't help but care and become attached to these characters.