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[Canadish]

MingWolf wrote...

Scimal wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Streamlining has never done any good, ever. One should remember that.

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Blimey, I'll be here all day at this rate...

I believe streamlining can be good only as long as one understands why they are streamlining it down in the first place. Streamlining correctly is another issue.

Streamlining can be great.
The fact your saying its bad means the Marketing department at EA just beat you.

Dumbing down to save working time and add appeal to idiots never brings any good in the long term.
It implys that your either lazy or have no faith in your own product. Making a product accessible is the key.
They just call it streamlining to make it sound like a good thing.
Which has had the unfortunate side effect of destroying a perfectly nice word.
Visceral seems to be their new favorite.

I think they're hoping no one looks up the definition.

Modifié par Canadish, 12 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[Tirigon]

Scimal wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Streamlining has never done any good, ever. One should remember that.

Hardware Design
Computer Programming
Aerodynamics
Hydrodynamics
Combustion Engine Design
Manufacturing and Product Design
Farming and Food Production
Communications
Power Production and Grid Design


Blimey, I'll be here all day at this rate...

No it didn´t. While, admittedly, in all these examples it fixed some issues it caused its own problems, too.

[Killjoy Cutter]

All the re-use of area maps and whatnot certainly helps explain how they got the installed size down from DA:O.

[neppakyo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the re-use of area maps and whatnot certainly helps explain how they got the installed size down from DA:O.

But it was artistically done!

And console users don't like to get up to switch discs!

[xkg]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the re-use of area maps and whatnot certainly helps explain how they got the installed size down from DA:O.

void Sarcasm ( ) 
{
   
    what are you talking about;
    they have used "new compression techniques";
}

Modifié par xkg, 12 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[Nyaore]

neppakyo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the re-use of area maps and whatnot certainly helps explain how they got the installed size down from DA:O.

But it was artistically done!

And console users don't like to get up to switch discs!

Do you people really need to bash console users in such an infentile manner to get your points across? Not all of us mind changing discs every so often, hell I know I don't.

[neppakyo]

Nyaore wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

All the re-use of area maps and whatnot certainly helps explain how they got the installed size down from DA:O.

But it was artistically done!

And console users don't like to get up to switch discs!

Do you people really need to bash console users in such an infentile manner to get your points across? Not all of us mind changing discs every so often, hell I know I don't.

It was sarcasm dear, not a bash against those cute lil' console users.

[aries1001]

A little off-topic, but relevant anyway; In 1983 my father and mother got their first videomachine (and I do mean videomachine); it was horrible, the instructions were -ahem- not that good, and half the time, or more, it did not work as intended. In 1997 or 1998, my father bought his third or fourth videomachine; it was much smoother, and much more, yes, streamlined. Now, there was a manual that actually could be usefull, there was on screen display (osd), pdc-codes etc. etc. And I'm sure a (very) few people lamented this streamlined progress...

Just as some, or many, people, lament the streamlined interface in DA2, the much more responsive combat, the much more user friendly interface. I, however, do not do this. I've played enough games to know that an accessible streamlined clean interface is - ahem- everything. If the player or gamer can't play the game because of the interface, he or she will quit the game rather quickly...

I don't like changing discs as well; and I play on the PC. When there was a dvd-disc released with BG1 on it, I bought it. (was tired of changing 5-6 cds when playing the game). And I'm sure that the monks in the monasteries also saw it as streamlining or dumbing down when Gutenberg invented the printing press. If he hadn't maybe we wouldn't be here - writing on this machine on this thing called the internet..

[barryl89]

Elanareon wrote...

Stinkface27 wrote...

Herbie_Hind wrote...

Stinkface27 wrote...

I disagree with you - a lot! But that aside, you've doomed yourself by using the "dumbing down" argument. True or not, that's a naughty catch phrase that usually gets threads locked real quick.

It's presumptuous to assume that because you like one style of game play, that is the "smart" way, and that fans of another style of game play are "dumb". Just sayin'.

So, removing everything about a game that makes me think and replacing it with a simple format that requires no though isn't dumbing it down?
Explain that train of thought, now.

I don't know what difficulty level you were playing at, mate. You could faceroll your way to victory on Nightmare in DAO, whereas DA2 Nightmare takes some actual strategy. Now, I realize this is but one aspect of the game, and I therefore wouldn't call every person who enjoyed DAO "dumb".

My actual point was that if you want to have this discussion, you should omit the "dumbed down" phrase because mods lock them left and right. My disagreement with your assertation was secondary to that first point.

hehe i can almost auto attack my way through DA2 nightmare, DA:O that's not possible... Weird huh...

I'm sorry... but wtf did you play? Because it was not DA2. DA2 nightmare is way harder than DAO nightmare. You want to disagree? My most powerful argument : Waves.

Now if you played with the mod Nightmare+, fair enough. But at least give BW a chance to get the toolset out before using that argument.

[daemon1129]

aries1001 wrote...

A little off-topic, but relevant anyway; In 1983 my father and mother got their first videomachine (and I do mean videomachine); it was horrible, the instructions were -ahem- not that good, and half the time, or more, it did not work as intended. In 1997 or 1998, my father bought his third or fourth videomachine; it was much smoother, and much more, yes, streamlined. Now, there was a manual that actually could be usefull, there was on screen display (osd), pdc-codes etc. etc. And I'm sure a (very) few people lamented this streamlined progress...

Just as some, or many, people, lament the streamlined interface in DA2, the much more responsive combat, the much more user friendly interface. I, however, do not do this. I've played enough games to know that an accessible streamlined clean interface is - ahem- everything. If the player or gamer can't play the game because of the interface, he or she will quit the game rather quickly...

I don't like changing discs as well; and I play on the PC. When there was a dvd-disc released with BG1 on it, I bought it. (was tired of changing 5-6 cds when playing the game). And I'm sure that the monks in the monasteries also saw it as streamlining or dumbing down when Gutenberg invented the printing press. If he hadn't maybe we wouldn't be here - writing on this machine on this thing called the internet..

You missed the point.  It is not streamline that people hate, it is the way it toss around by companies as an excuse to cut content to save time and money while making it sound like they are doing it for the consumers sake.

[Stinkface27]

Elanareon wrote...

hehe i can almost auto attack my way through DA2 nightmare, DA:O that's not possible... Weird huh...

I don't want to derail this topic any worse than I already did, but .. uh, no? I don't know which part of your claim is more silly, the fact that you didn't have an easy time with DAO Nightmare or that you apparently breezed through DA2 Nightmare. Depending on what class and your set up, Nightmare on DA2 can be not too bad. But if you think that is easy, how on earth could you not say that DAO was easy? Even the people responsible for designing and tuning the difficulty said that Nightmare on DAO was too easy.

[Alpr]

Always amuses me when people say they've bought all previous bioware games, but buying one game they didn't like = never buying anymore.

So much for loyal customer.

[SoR82]

Alpr wrote...

Always amuses me when people say they've bought all previous bioware games, but buying one game they didn't like = never buying anymore.

So much for loyal customer.

So much for rewarding your loyal fanbase, it swings both ways mate

[RU_War]

 You know, there are people that like DA2. I enjoy it quite a lot in fact. No it's not as good as Origins, but I still feel it's a great game. People are complaining about the lack of depth but I find it is still there in different places. Story wise, the Mage vs Chantry thing gets pretty old, but aside from that the insight on the Qunari and the city's outside of Fereldon is refreshing. I'm sad about the lack of Grey Wardens but thats my opinion just like everything else. Area reuse is lame I will agree and certain characters are boring (Fenris). Beyond that however I am very happy with this buy. Not perfect but not a black mark on Bioware's record as some claim.

[Tirigon]

Nyaore wrote...

Do you people really need to bash console users in such an infentile manner to get your points across? Not all of us mind changing discs every so often, hell I know I don't.

If that´s true, then you should join us in making fun of those Sandals giving you console gamers a bad name.

[addiction21]

SoR82 wrote...

Alpr wrote...

Always amuses me when people say they've bought all previous bioware games, but buying one game they didn't like = never buying anymore.

So much for loyal customer.

So much for rewarding your loyal fanbase, it swings both ways mate

BG/BG2 was a slap in the face to all those "loyal fans" (more shattered steel please
Kotor was a slap in the face of all those "loyal fans" at that point.
Jade Empire was a...
Mass Effect was a...

BioWare has never been consistent in the games they design.Even between their own sequels. To have or contiue to expect different is just foolish.

[dfstone]

I think Mass Effect will be fine. It was DA trying to turn into Mass Effect that was the problem, not the other way around.

[Killjoy Cutter]

If it tells you anything, I was introduced to Bioware's games by a gift last summer of ME2, which I played, not thinking about there being an original ME at all. Then I went out and got ME, and honestly, in many ways, I prefer it to ME2.

[Stegoceras]

addiction21 wrote...

SoR82 wrote...

Alpr wrote...

Always amuses me when people say they've bought all previous bioware games, but buying one game they didn't like = never buying anymore.

So much for loyal customer.

So much for rewarding your loyal fanbase, it swings both ways mate

BG/BG2 was a slap in the face to all those "loyal fans" (more shattered steel please
Kotor was a slap in the face of all those "loyal fans" at that point.
Jade Empire was a...
Mass Effect was a...

BioWare has never been consistent in the games they design.Even between their own sequels. To have or contiue to expect different is just foolish.

Could you please explain this post, I'm not sure I understand...
Why was Jade Empire a slap in the face? Why was Kotor a slap in the face? Why BG/BG? Why Mass Effect? They were all new product lines so i can't well damn compare them to any previous line and demand the same thing, Can I? Dragon age 2 was a sequel and it changed a lot from it's predecessor. Comparing them is something I expect when you add a 2 (even though they tried so very hard of convicing us it was not a sequel) .

I just don't quite get what your aiming at, I'm sorry if that's because I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

Modifié par Stegoceras, 13 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[addiction21]

Stegoceras wrote...

Could you please explain this post, I'm not sure I understand...
Why was Jade Empire a slap in the face? Why was Kotor a slap in the face? Why BG/BG? Why Mass Effect? They were all new product lines so i can't well damn compare them to any previous line and demand the same thing, Can I? Dragon age 2 was a sequel and it changed a lot from it's predecessor. Comparing them is something I expect when you add a 2 (even though they tried so very hard of convicing us it was not a sequel) .

I just don't quite get what your aiming at, I'm sorry if that's because I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

Sure you can demand the same thing. Thats the point. Thats what many of these "loyal fans" have been doing for over a decade now.
"This new BioWare game is not like the game I prefered so they are betraying their "loyal fans" argument gets thrown around all the time and its just hollow. no weight to it at all.
And why would you expect DA2 to be a copy of DAO. BG2 change from BG1 even those changes were not as drastic as to say something more recent... like something that wasnt released over a decade ago and half a dozen games before now... like ME2.
What did you do? Buy the game/rent it on the name brand alone? If so thats all good, just say you were ignorant and you ended up with a rushed shoddy game that was a disapointment.
Me? I kept my self abreast of what information I could about DA2 (its not like these many changes were hidden. There even was a demo to check out the combat) and decided to not waste my money. Still waiting for it to come thru on Gamefly... well waiting my be too strong a word.

Just to repeat it. The point is that expecting the exact same thing from BW is foolish. Nothing supports that claim or argument. Maybe if we were speaking about Blizzard...

[SoR82]

I dont expect the same thing infact I applaud them for trying something different, but I expect a good game not a rushed apathetic recycled exscuse for a game. Perhaps i hope for too much?

Im not going to list AGAIN all my issues from DA2 , suffice to say they all stem from the same thing they choose possibly the hardest method of story telling they could have done rushed through it all, and if anyone can argue this game isnt rushed succesfully I'd be amazed, they didnt even have the decency to try and cover up plot holes they just hoped no one would notice.

[Stegoceras]

addiction21 wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

Could you please explain this post, I'm not sure I understand...
Why was Jade Empire a slap in the face? Why was Kotor a slap in the face? Why BG/BG? Why Mass Effect? They were all new product lines so i can't well damn compare them to any previous line and demand the same thing, Can I? Dragon age 2 was a sequel and it changed a lot from it's predecessor. Comparing them is something I expect when you add a 2 (even though they tried so very hard of convicing us it was not a sequel) .

I just don't quite get what your aiming at, I'm sorry if that's because I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

Sure you can demand the same thing. Thats the point. Thats what many of these "loyal fans" have been doing for over a decade now.
"This new BioWare game is not like the game I prefered so they are betraying their "loyal fans" argument gets thrown around all the time and its just hollow. no weight to it at all.
And why would you expect DA2 to be a copy of DAO. BG2 change from BG1 even those changes were not as drastic as to say something more recent... like something that wasnt released over a decade ago and half a dozen games before now... like ME2.
What did you do? Buy the game/rent it on the name brand alone? If so thats all good, just say you were ignorant and you ended up with a rushed shoddy game that was a disapointment.
Me? I kept my self abreast of what information I could about DA2 (its not like these many changes were hidden. There even was a demo to check out the combat) and decided to not waste my money. Still waiting for it to come thru on Gamefly... well waiting my be too strong a word.

Just to repeat it. The point is that expecting the exact same thing from BW is foolish. Nothing supports that claim or argument. Maybe if we were speaking about Blizzard...

First off don't mean to offend you or anything so if you read it that way I'm sorry. However I still don't quite understand, you say we can't expect a sequel to be a successor because Bioware continously changes their ideas. You also post a game of list that are from different lines, which I feel has little importance to your point we shouldn't expect DA2 to be the sequel of DA:O. Besides a 2 behind the name can be a very solid statement that they mean to make a game in spirit of it's predecessor (or at least leech on it's predecessor's name) is it really so strange people expect something that shares any of it's assests (gameplay/story/style) with it's predecessor, DA2 seems to share very little with DA:O (I honestly can't name many games I have played that carry a 2 behind their name that are so far away from what their predecessor was).

I do agree on the point that people will always complain/demand stuff, but that's just human nature and also the fact that it's wiser to await a trusted review of a game before buying. (however I do feel that the DA2 demo was very poorly done in defense of people that decided to base their purchase on that.)

Again, I don't as much as disagree things you said except that 'loyal fans' somehow magically expect every bioware game to be the same, because I honestly dont think most do, They expect a certain amount of quality from Bioware though and that's where DA2 seems to fall short.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

I've never played a Bioware game I didn't like. On the other hand, I've never loaded one up with an insistent idea about what it had to be. Haven't played DA2, but I suspect I would find some entertainment in it, annoyances notwithstanding. Not sure it's worth the time and money, though, when there are other things upon which to spend time and money.

[Stanley Woo]

Stegoceras wrote...
Why was Jade Empire a slap in the face?

Jade Empire was seen as a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous" because it was considered "RPG lite," a "dumbing down" of the classic RPG formula into "action RPG," a pejorative thrown around in our forums around that time. It also was neither D&D, traditional European-derived fantasy, nor science-fiction. We learned a lot about our own capabilities and how to create better games from this project.

Why was Kotor a slap in the face?

KotOR, despite being a game int he very popular Star Wars franchise, was seen as a "betrayal of our fans" because we were no longer paying homage to our fantasy RPG and Dungeons and Dragons roots. It was considered, often and vociferously on our forums at the time, a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous." We learned a lot about pacing and making our games faster and more exciting with KotOR.

Why BG/BG?

I don't know about this one, since we didn't have our very own online community back then. i would assume that "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" wanted more Shattered Steel and/or MDK2, either a giant robot action game or a quirky, well-written adventure game. I believe this is the series which made people stand up and take notice of BioWare and begin its reputation as one of the best story-driven-game developers in the world.

Why Mass Effect?

Mass Effect was an original property. Like with Dragon Age Origins, there was a chunk of our comunity who didn't want to risk exposure to something new (what if they didn't like it?) and wanted BioWare to continue making awesome games with licensed properties. And now, we have a section of our community who wouldn't trade them for the world, even for their respective sequels!

I just don't quite get what your aiming at, I'm sorry if that's because I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

The point was mainly that fans prefer the safe and known quantities, and, like humans in general, fear the unknown because they have no control over the advertising that surrounds it or their own reactions to it. Change is generally bad unless there is a lot of reassurance and continual communication, which we can't always provide but we do try. We communicated the changes between DAO and DA2 much better than we communicated the cahnges between ME2 and ME, but it still wasn't enough for some people, and that's understandable.

Anytime there is a change in the basic formula, we will gain some new fans and lose some old fans, the same as with any media like books, movies, comics, etc. With original properties like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, we have the opportunity to try all sorts of new things and respond more quickly and easily to gamer concerns and feedback. Sure, not everyone is goign to agree with us all the time, but without change, without the ability to try new things, without new eyes experiencing BioWare and its games for the very first time, we're not going to be able to see what works and what doesn't, and for whom.

And before this explodes into "who do we listen to?": we can take or leave any feedback we get. There is no obligation for us to only listen to one side or another, or to act upon anything we hear or read. We take everything into account--including info and feedback from other communities, people who come to our demo booths, professional media, other developers, blogs, social media, industry trends, our own opinions, and super-secret internal EA wizardry--when developing the next product. When we lock threads in this community, or try to steer the discussion a certain way, it doesn't mean we're no longer listening to a certain side. It usually means we'd like to hear more from an underrepresented viewpoint or group, or one side is no longer giving us anything new and we wantt o advance the discussion to the next point.

Believe me, we have had an online community for a long time now, and we are pretty sure we know how it works. Despite the sometimes heated discussions, despite the arguments you have with each other or with us, despite all of our disagreements, we are very grateful to our community members who engage with us and our games and provide their sincere, passionate feedback here and elsewhere online. Yes, even the so-called "trolls" and "fanboys."

Just try to keep the discussions healthy and constructive, please. Thank you for your participation, everyone.