204 réponses à ce sujet

[Avissel]

I love this guy.

[DraCZeQQ]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Why was Jade Empire a slap in the face?

Jade Empire was seen as a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous" because it was considered "RPG lite," a "dumbing down" of the classic RPG formula into "action RPG," a pejorative thrown around in our forums around that time. It also was neither D&D, traditional European-derived fantasy, nor science-fiction. We learned a lot about our own capabilities and how to create better games from this project.

And they were right ... Jade Empire is dumbed down Action RPG Lite game ...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Why BG/BG?

I believe this is the series which made people stand up and take notice of BioWare and begin its reputation as one of the best story-driven-game developers in the world.

You mean Bioware begin its reputation as decent engine creators and Black Isle as one of the best story-driven-game developers right? =)

[aries1001]

I've been playing Bioware games for a long time now (since baldur's gate, the first). Sadly, I missed Shattered Steel, and I have tried to play MDK2. (however, I'm not that that great a fan of platformer action adventure games, mainly because I don't have the reflexes in my hands and arms for it). I loved BG1 as soon as I saw it, Gorion, Candlekeep, the Sword Coast. I had to have a former colleague of mine show me the robes around the combat, but then I got the hang of it, and was hooked. And has been ever since.
I like that Bioware games The big problem for Bioware, and other devs, I think, is that they perhaps may listen to the people who are loud(est) on the forum.

As for the communication of the changes, there was an uproar on the forums when it became clear that Bioware (EA) used data telemetri, perhaps gathered without the user's content, to determine what should be in DA2, when in interview leading Bioware senior management admitted that they wanted to 'attract the players that play Call of Duty' and that they decided to make the main character a human, because that what's most people played. In that case, you could just as well have made the character a human warrior (since the human origin in DA: Origins was a Human Noble one...) I also like that in Bioware games you can choose to play as a male or female, but why isn't this highlighted on the back of the box...

As for listening to the forums, yes, Bioware listens, it seems. However, I sometimes find maybe the Bioware devs. listen too much to the forums. Examples of this are: No planetexploration in ME2, no Mako (at first, I think?), no loading elevators (with the result that all wanted the elevators back). Changes in DA2 from DA:O - more responsive combat, voiced character, dialiogue wheel etc. etc. - all changes made public first here on the Bioware forums.

The problem with DA2 as I can hear, see and tell is not mainly this, although many people seem unhappy with these changes (I don't) is that Bioware's way of telling the story this time around maybe is not that great - for varius reasons. And maybe, it is...Maybe all of us, and Bioware also, sometimes, just need to take a chance - and do what we have not done before, just to see how it goes...

[scpulley]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Same, I'm genuinely worried about Mass effect 3 after DA2, I predict that customization will be gone completely, and there wont be persuasion skills or morality, there will simply be good and bad. Also, we can't talk to companions.

Actually, they are adding to the customization. They are bringing back weapon mods, the mods actually change the look of the weapons, and classes aren't restricted in which weapons they can use now. Instead, they have to pick which weapons they have, I think adept and engineer have 2, vangaurd and infiltrator have 3, and soldier can carry them all.

[Merced652]

I'm sorry, are you acting like telling us the game is mediocre would then make the game not mediocre?

[MorrigansLove]

[spam link removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 13 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Bostur]

Stanley Woo's response is exactly what worries me the most.

He still make it sound like the backlash of DA2 is fear of change, when the main complaint is that DA2 feels like half a game, unpolished, unfinished and with big visible holes where parts of the game were supposed to be.

The other titles he mentioned had a lot more experimentation going for them, and they certainly caused worry and uncertainity as change inevitably does. DA2 has very little change or experimentation, thats mainly an excuse for leaving large parts of the game in the prototype phase.


Of course you can choose who you listen to, but if you visibly put your fingers in the ears and scream "nanananana" don't be surprised if you lose credibility.

Modifié par Bostur, 13 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[DA2 is Awsum]

So stan, how many people who have disagreed with you or pointed out your terrible logic have been banned so far?

[Eurypterid]

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

So stan, how many people who have disagreed with you or pointed out your terrible logic have been banned so far?

I can answer that: None. At least not for the reasons you listed. People are banned for being [troublemakers]. Not for disagreeing with the devs.

[inapprorpiate comment edited]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 13 avril 2011 - 10:21 .

[Elencia]

[inappropriate post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 13 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[Stanley Woo]

DA2 is Awsum wrote...
So stan, how many people who have disagreed with you or pointed out your terrible logic have been banned so far?

Eurypterid is correct. We do not have a posted rule which forces people to agree with BioWare or EA, or to necessarily like BioWare or EA at all. If you'd like to scan through the first few pages of both this and the DA2 Registered Owners forum, you'll see many who are regular posters of, shall we say, less than complimentary opinions about BioWare, EA, Dragon Age II, and our developers.

But as this is not Dragon Age II related, I would be happy to discuss this in a more appropriate thread in a more appropriate forum, if there is still something you need clarified when it comes to Moderation or forum policy. Thank you.

[JabberJaww]

Hating on a game seems like a 24/7 job for a lot of people on here.

[scpulley]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I just don't quite get what your aiming at, I'm sorry if that's because I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

The point was mainly that fans prefer the safe and known quantities, and, like humans in general, fear the unknown because they have no control over the advertising that surrounds it or their own reactions to it. Change is generally bad unless there is a lot of reassurance and continual communication, which we can't always provide but we do try. We communicated the changes between DAO and DA2 much better than we communicated the cahnges between ME2 and ME, but it still wasn't enough for some people, and that's understandable.

Anytime there is a change in the basic formula, we will gain some new fans and lose some old fans, the same as with any media like books, movies, comics, etc. With original properties like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, we have the opportunity to try all sorts of new things and respond more quickly and easily to gamer concerns and feedback. Sure, not everyone is goign to agree with us all the time, but without change, without the ability to try new things, without new eyes experiencing BioWare and its games for the very first time, we're not going to be able to see what works and what doesn't, and for whom.

And before this explodes into "who do we listen to?": we can take or leave any feedback we get. There is no obligation for us to only listen to one side or another, or to act upon anything we hear or read. We take everything into account--including info and feedback from other communities, people who come to our demo booths, professional media, other developers, blogs, social media, industry trends, our own opinions, and super-secret internal EA wizardry--when developing the next product. When we lock threads in this community, or try to steer the discussion a certain way, it doesn't mean we're no longer listening to a certain side. It usually means we'd like to hear more from an underrepresented viewpoint or group, or one side is no longer giving us anything new and we wantt o advance the discussion to the next point.

Believe me, we have had an online community for a long time now, and we are pretty sure we know how it works. Despite the sometimes heated discussions, despite the arguments you have with each other or with us, despite all of our disagreements, we are very grateful to our community members who engage with us and our games and provide their sincere, passionate feedback here and elsewhere online. Yes, even the so-called "trolls" and "fanboys."

Just try to keep the discussions healthy and constructive, please. Thank you for your participation, everyone.

While I understand logic that yes, it's your IP and yes, you can take it any direction you like, do you guys really need to make it sound like we, as the fans, if we don't like something, it's just chalked up to 'you don't get it, move along'? I mean, that is how a lot of these comments coming from the DA 2 development team are coming off. Deffensive rather than really productive. Do you have to listen to us? No. But do you really need to not just change things to earn new fans in trade off with loosing old ones, but then come off as putting down what you did do and was actually better recieved? I do hope this comes back to bite you guys in the ass in that case, maybe then you won't be so quick to scrap everything even if all it needs it tweeking just to appease new fans. Change is good, but in this case I think it clearly wasn't worth the cost of fans you lost for this series.

FYI, the other media you mentioned actually follows a story from beginning middle and end. DA 2 did not do this well at all, which is why it has had more negative reception. Don't generallize the changes to changes made in media when it wasn't the changes at fault, it was poor story execution so people could look past changes in game mechanics.

[Stanley Woo]

scpulley wrote...
While I understand logic that yes, it's your IP and yes, you can take it any direction you like, do you guys really need to make it sound like we, as the fans, if we don't like something, it's just chalked up to 'you don't get it, move along'? I mean, that is how a lot of these comments coming from the DA 2 development team are coming off. Deffensive rather than really productive.

Well, we have a lot of passionate developers who feel very strongly about our product, so yes, sometimes when we defend something we rather like against those who don't like it, we can certainly come across as sounding defensive. Just as those disliking the game can sometimes come across as whiny or accusatory. One of the limitations of this text-only communications medium is that the tone of a message can easily be misconstrued. i consider it more an issue of the medium in which we're having this discussion rather than the fault of those doing the discussing.

but i'm not sure I understand what you mean by "productive"? in my brain, it seems a simple matter of we decide to do things one way, people disagree and tell us so, we try to clarify or explain, problem solved even if you continue to disagree. I certainly can't expect the community and BioWare to reach a consensus on every issue. What, to your mind, would make these discussions more "productive?" What would you like to accomplish with us?

Do you have to listen to us? No. But do you really need to not just change things to earn new fans in trade off with loosing old ones, but then come off as putting down what you did do and was actually better recieved? I do hope this comes back to bite you guys in the ass in that case, maybe then you won't be so quick to scrap everything even if all it needs it tweeking just to appease new fans. Change is good, but in this case I think it clearly wasn't worth the cost of fans you lost for this series.

Hindsight is always 20/20, and subjective. Any "conclusion" we reach from DA2 feedback likely won't be evident until the next project this team does. You'll have to wait until the next project to tell us whether we've "scrapped everything" or "tweaked it" or both or neither. I'm willing to accept that sometimes, change is good, and sometimes, change is not so good. But I would never know until I experience those changes.

FYI, the other media you mentioned actually follows a story from beginning middle and end. DA 2 did not do this well at all, which is why it has had more negative reception. Don't generallize the changes to changes made in media when it wasn't the changes at fault, it was poor story execution so people could look past changes in game mechanics.

Your "main complaint" here seems different than another already posted in this discussion. Why do you think that is?

[fchopin]

Stanley Woo wrote...
 Change is generally bad unless there is a lot of reassurance and continual communication, which we can't always provide but we do try. We communicated the changes between DAO and DA2 much better than we communicated the cahnges between ME2 and ME, but it still wasn't enough for some people, and that's understandable.

Thank you for this information as i was not happy with the info on ME2 and felt cheated and upset as i bought the game and it was nothing like what i expected.
 
I was lot more happy with the DA2 info as i knew approximately what to expect from the game and therefore less disappointed in the outcome.
 
If the info for future games is improved i will have no problems on the games Bioware makes as i don't have to buy them if i don't think i will like the games.

[Stegoceras]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Just try to keep the discussions healthy and constructive, please. Thank you for your participation, everyone.

Can I just say thank you, it's very refreshing to hear the point of view from the people who developed the game.

Raises a question though, to me the DA2 mechanics feel very thoroughly changed and quite a few things seem cut or added, is there a reason they decided not to make a spin-off or start a new line? To me it seems a sequel tends to require a certain amount of expectations to fill, where that would have not been the case as much when you start fresh. I guess the same question could be asked for ME2 of course (though I admit I really enjoyed that game)

[Jax Sparrow]

 hmmm... I like origins and I like two;  And, so your problem is that Origins is a better game than two?  I agree that I want them to bring back a lot of things from Origins like picking race and customizing party member equipment.  I want to actually have choices for small things like actually being able to save Leandra Hawke; instead of having some lame ending because someone felt tweaked because of what that Square-Enix guy said about Origins.

However, where did you get this idea that two is not awesomesauce?  Last I read the first two weeks or so of sales was already over the number of sales for Origins.  So why should BioWare think of two as having even come close to doing badly?  Because you wanted more?  I want more too but this is the human condition.  Maybe instead of complaining about nothing... you suggest what you want more of to BioWare and then hope others agree with you and they listen.  While that happens continue playing two or origins, or whatever else you wish.  At some point I still need to play that Mass Effect 2 DLC I downloaded.

just a thought or two. <3

[xkg]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

 hmmm... I like origins and I like two;  And, so your problem is that Origins is a better game than two?  I agree that I want them to bring back a lot of things from Origins like picking race and customizing party member equipment.  I want to actually have choices for small things like actually being able to save Leandra Hawke; instead of having some lame ending because someone felt tweaked because of what that Square-Enix guy said about Origins.

However, where did you get this idea that two is not awesomesauce?  Last I read the first two weeks or so of sales was already over the number of sales for Origins.  So why should BioWare think of two as having even come close to doing badly?  Because you wanted more?  I want more too but this is the human condition.  Maybe instead of complaining about nothing... you suggest what you want more of to BioWare and then hope others agree with you and they listen.  While that happens continue playing two or origins, or whatever else you wish.  At some point I still need to play that Mass Effect 2 DLC I downloaded.

just a thought or two. <3

Seems funny that you mentioned only FIRST 2 weeks not FIRST 4 weeks ;p lol
nvm anyway, whatever you say

[JBurke]

This guy is pretty much saying everything I'm thinking. I've been buying BioWare games since they started releasing them and I've defended them almost religiously whenever they took risks. Now, I just can't do it. ME3, and virtually all BioWare games, have essentially gone into the "I'll wait until player reviews come out as well as a huge cost reduction." The quality I used to look for in BioWare can only be found in Bethesda, and that is sad.

Also, BioWare needs to pick up on the quality assurance. Why, of why, do we have déjà vu dungeons? The company that used to give us some of the most unique atmospheres pulling a cut n' paste? WTF?

[Mr.House]

I love DAO, I loved DA2. I guess I'm a traitor to rpgs

[Embargoed]

JBurke wrote...

This guy is pretty much saying everything I'm thinking. I've been buying BioWare games since they started releasing them and I've defended them almost religiously whenever they took risks. Now, I just can't do it. ME3, and virtually all BioWare games, have essentially gone into the "I'll wait until player reviews come out as well as a huge cost reduction." The quality I used to look for in BioWare can only be found in Bethesda, and that is sad.

Also, BioWare needs to pick up on the quality assurance. Why, of why, do we have déjà vu dungeons? The company that used to give us some of the most unique atmospheres pulling a cut n' paste? WTF?

Bestheda copy n' pasted in Fallout 3. A lot. Like, a whole lot. Most of the environments in their games aren't that great anyway. But hey, this is all subjective anyway.


There hasn't been a BioWare game that I haven't enjoyed. I don't understand some of the hate that this game gets, but there are some legitimate complaints. Still, it's not good to compare Bestheda with BioWare when one makes games that aren't really all that similar to each other.

Bestheda = Open world, sandbox games with Silent Protagonists and emphasis on freedom
BioWare = Closed, Linear games with Voiced Protagonists and emphasis on story

[corebit]

Sad to say, probably at this point nothing will convince the developers of a change of heart unless sales slump and their EA bosses start banging their desks demanding answers. The developers are pretty much set in their views, us customers "just don't get it"

[toggled]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...
Why was Jade Empire a slap in the face?

Jade Empire was seen as a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous" because it was considered "RPG lite," a "dumbing down" of the classic RPG formula into "action RPG," a pejorative thrown around in our forums around that time. It also was neither D&D, traditional European-derived fantasy, nor science-fiction. We learned a lot about our own capabilities and how to create better games from this project.

Why was Kotor a slap in the face?

KotOR, despite being a game int he very popular Star Wars franchise, was seen as a "betrayal of our fans" because we were no longer paying homage to our fantasy RPG and Dungeons and Dragons roots. It was considered, often and vociferously on our forums at the time, a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous." We learned a lot about pacing and making our games faster and more exciting with KotOR.

Why BG/BG?

I don't know about this one, since we didn't have our very own online community back then. i would assume that "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" wanted more Shattered Steel and/or MDK2, either a giant robot action game or a quirky, well-written adventure game. I believe this is the series which made people stand up and take notice of BioWare and begin its reputation as one of the best story-driven-game developers in the world.

Why Mass Effect?

Mass Effect was an original property. Like with Dragon Age Origins, there was a chunk of our comunity who didn't want to risk exposure to something new (what if they didn't like it?) and wanted BioWare to continue making awesome games with licensed properties. And now, we have a section of our community who wouldn't trade them for the world, even for their respective sequels!

I just don't quite get what your aiming at, I'm sorry if that's because I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

The point was mainly that fans prefer the safe and known quantities, and, like humans in general, fear the unknown because they have no control over the advertising that surrounds it or their own reactions to it. Change is generally bad unless there is a lot of reassurance and continual communication, which we can't always provide but we do try. We communicated the changes between DAO and DA2 much better than we communicated the cahnges between ME2 and ME, but it still wasn't enough for some people, and that's understandable.

Anytime there is a change in the basic formula, we will gain some new fans and lose some old fans, the same as with any media like books, movies, comics, etc. With original properties like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, we have the opportunity to try all sorts of new things and respond more quickly and easily to gamer concerns and feedback. Sure, not everyone is goign to agree with us all the time, but without change, without the ability to try new things, without new eyes experiencing BioWare and its games for the very first time, we're not going to be able to see what works and what doesn't, and for whom.

And before this explodes into "who do we listen to?": we can take or leave any feedback we get. There is no obligation for us to only listen to one side or another, or to act upon anything we hear or read. We take everything into account--including info and feedback from other communities, people who come to our demo booths, professional media, other developers, blogs, social media, industry trends, our own opinions, and super-secret internal EA wizardry--when developing the next product. When we lock threads in this community, or try to steer the discussion a certain way, it doesn't mean we're no longer listening to a certain side. It usually means we'd like to hear more from an underrepresented viewpoint or group, or one side is no longer giving us anything new and we wantt o advance the discussion to the next point.

Believe me, we have had an online community for a long time now, and we are pretty sure we know how it works. Despite the sometimes heated discussions, despite the arguments you have with each other or with us, despite all of our disagreements, we are very grateful to our community members who engage with us and our games and provide their sincere, passionate feedback here and elsewhere online. Yes, even the so-called "trolls" and "fanboys."

Just try to keep the discussions healthy and constructive, please. Thank you for your participation, everyone.

Mass Effect metacritic score: 8.5
Mass Effect 2 metacritic score: 8.8
Jade Empire metacritic score: 8.6
KOTOR metacritic score: 9.0
Dragon Age: Origins metacritic score: 8.3
Dragon Age 2 metacritic score: 4.3

Thank you for the time you spent writing your post, but - Argument demolished.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Stanley Woo wrote...
The point was mainly that fans prefer the safe and known quantities, and, like humans in general, fear the unknown because they have no control over the advertising that surrounds it or their own reactions to it. Change is generally bad unless there is a lot of reassurance and continual communication, which we can't always provide but we do try. We communicated the changes between DAO and DA2 much better than we communicated the cahnges between ME2 and ME, but it still wasn't enough for some people, and that's understandable.

Anytime there is a change in the basic formula, we will gain some new fans and lose some old fans, the same as with any media like books, movies, comics, etc. With original properties like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, we have the opportunity to try all sorts of new things and respond more quickly and easily to gamer concerns and feedback. Sure, not everyone is goign to agree with us all the time, but without change, without the ability to try new things, without new eyes experiencing BioWare and its games for the very first time, we're not going to be able to see what works and what doesn't, and for whom.

And before this explodes into "who do we listen to?": we can take or leave any feedback we get. There is no obligation for us to only listen to one side or another, or to act upon anything we hear or read. We take everything into account--including info and feedback from other communities, people who come to our demo booths, professional media, other developers, blogs, social media, industry trends, our own opinions, and super-secret internal EA wizardry--when developing the next product. When we lock threads in this community, or try to steer the discussion a certain way, it doesn't mean we're no longer listening to a certain side. It usually means we'd like to hear more from an underrepresented viewpoint or group, or one side is no longer giving us anything new and we wantt o advance the discussion to the next point.

Believe me, we have had an online community for a long time now, and we are pretty sure we know how it works. Despite the sometimes heated discussions, despite the arguments you have with each other or with us, despite all of our disagreements, we are very grateful to our community members who engage with us and our games and provide their sincere, passionate feedback here and elsewhere online. Yes, even the so-called "trolls" and "fanboys."

Just try to keep the discussions healthy and constructive, please. Thank you for your participation, everyone.

For what it's worth, I had no intention of buying and playing ME2 until I heard about the design changes from ME1.  I was also excited about some of the design changes I heard about between DA:O and DA2.  Sounds like there's stuff in DA2 that's not exactly to my taste, and I'm not sure if and when I'll get around to playing it.

That said, I sincerely hope that the question, "To whom do we listen?" is answered largely with "Ourselves, with occasional ideas stolen from the fanbase."  Ultimately, an artist has to be passionate about his own work.  I understand that game development is a business, but any half-hearted attempt to design to preferences of the loudest fans is doomed to produce an uninspired product.

I'd rather see a robust design approach to things I don't like (male NPC's hitting on a male PC, 15-foot ninja jumps, fountains of blood, whatever) than have a developer pander to my preferences without really feeling it.  Even if I don't play a game, I respect the developers (and the game) more if it has a passionate and cohesive design to it.