204 réponses à ce sujet

[infurious]

Bostur wrote...

Stanley Woo's response is exactly what worries me the most.

He still make it sound like the backlash of DA2 is fear of change, when the main complaint is that DA2 feels like half a game, unpolished, unfinished and with big visible holes where parts of the game were supposed to be.

The other titles he mentioned had a lot more experimentation going for them, and they certainly caused worry and uncertainity as change inevitably does. DA2 has very little change or experimentation, thats mainly an excuse for leaving large parts of the game in the prototype phase.


Of course you can choose who you listen to, but if you visibly put your fingers in the ears and scream "nanananana" don't be surprised if you lose credibility.

This.

Some changes are good, and some are bad, however DA2 felt more like a commercial/marketing experiment than a game experiment. 

It's mostly the older (aging) community that will always make noise, because with each generation, BW games lose more and more complexity, depth and soul in order to market a larger, younger crowd - all comes down to $$, sad.

[shnizzler93]

I knew I needed popcorn for something...

...anyways, OP's opinion is simply that, and opinion. Not everyone is going to agree with it, and not everyone is going to disagree with it. That is probably the only fact here.

In my opinion, I loved the game. I thought, given the circumstances, the DA2 team made a good game. However, I am aware of a baffled by many other decisions they made for the game, some of which do detract from the experience, but I am able to give them the benefit of the doubt usually because I cannot be in their shoes to know exactly what was going on in the development process.

I just think all of the complaining and counter-complaining is quite comical though.

[Blakes 7]

You know, many paths of evolution result in dead ends...just saying. Off the top of my head, fmv games and adventure games went the way of the dinosaur because of the failure to innovate - but there demise was hastened because adventure game innovations(fmv) failed to take off among the community that enjoyed that genre. (due to a lessening of quality puzzle and adventure elements)

In other words there is change that promotes a genre's strengths and there is change that saps a genre's strengths to the point of irrelevance.

If you undermine what makes your genre special, your customers no longer value those elements either - so which camp does da2 belong in?

[Scimal]

Blakes 7 wrote...

You know, many paths of evolution result in dead ends...just saying. Off the top of my head, fmv games and adventure games went the way of the dinosaur because of the failure to innovate - but there demise was hastened because adventure game innovations(fmv) failed to take off among the community that enjoyed that genre. (due to a lessening of quality puzzle and adventure elements)

Assassin's Creed
Portal 2
Batman: Arkhum Asylum
Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time
Amnesia: The Dark Descent
Monkey Island 2

All of those are listed as "Adventure" games (Adventure, Action - to be specific).

Adventure games evolved just fine. FMV games died off because technology got better and the acting was horrible in 99% of them.

Portal was easily the most innovative and fun game I've played since Half-Life 2. Portal 2 is looking to meet and possibly beat it.

The games most consider to be RPGs - Games where dialogue and moral choices affect gameplay and you control a small party - have remained pretty stale. If it's not instantly recognizable as a BGII or Elder Scrolls derivative, it's not accepted by large swathes of the community.

That will kill RPGs eventually. Technology isn't quite to the point where a game can offer a truly immersive experience with dynamic, realistic responses and an adjusting storyline to compensate to the every whim of a PC - so the limits of the current level of tech is heavily veiled.

When the pointy bits start poking some people the wrong way, they get angry.

In other words there is change that promotes a genre's strengths and there is change that saps a genre's strengths to the point of irrelevance.

If you undermine what makes your genre special, your customers no longer value those elements either - so which camp does da2 belong in?

DA2 doesn't belong in either. Change like that takes time - usually years - to come to fruition. Multiple failed attempts to change the genre.

DA2 isn't a failed game. It's simply an RPG with some above average elements and below average elements. That makes it average (if I've done my averaging correctly).

[petipas1414]

kotor wasn't a slap in the face... it was a gentle kiss on the cheek

[KayakBama]

I really enjoyed the BG titles, Kotor, NWN, and the first Dragon Age.  They all have offered the experience I am looking for in an rpg and I've never really been upset with the change.  I never tried Jade Empire and I do plan to give the Mass Effect series a try at some point, but I have a fair idea of what those titles will offer before I purchase them.  I am a bit hesitant to try this game because it seems there is a fair amount of negative criticism that has been generated across multiple review sites.  My major concerns are the lack of diversity in scenery (BG for instance had amazing scenery and I really loved the artists' interpretation of the forgotten realms) and lack of customization of both your character and party members.  I will buy Mass Effect knowing I will be constrained in my role, but I hoped Dragon Age 2 would remain faithful to the original in the ability to play whatever race I wanted and my choice in race had an impact on how the world reacted around me. 

Stanley Woo wrote..
Hindsight is always 20/20, and subjective.
Any "conclusion" we reach from DA2 feedback likely won't be evident
until the next project this team does. You'll have to wait until the
next project to tell us whether we've "scrapped everything" or "tweaked
it" or both or neither. I'm willing to accept that sometimes, change is
good, and sometimes, change is not so good. But I would never know until
I experience those changes.

To me the criticism of this game seems significantly more prevalent then previous titles.  You can see it on metacritic (despite the lack of fairness of some of the reviews I think it gives an accurate composite score that is much lower than previous bioware titles), other major game review sites, surveys taken on this forum, and dropping weekly sales (if the numbers going around are accurate and admittedly other factors may contribute).  Even if a growing forum community contributes to more negative reaction and criticism has been around since bioware has had an online community, I think there is a fair amount of evidence to suggest this tite wasn't the success bioware hoped it to be and the criticism should be considered more thoroughly.  What priority does Bioware give to the various factors in determining whether Dragon Age 2 is a success?

Modifié par KayakBama, 14 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[The Fan]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Same, I'm genuinely worried about Mass effect 3 after DA2, I predict that customization will be gone completely, and there wont be persuasion skills or morality, there will simply be good and bad. Also, we can't talk to companions.

*facedesk* ITS OVIOUS THAT YOU DIDNT READ THE GAME INFOMRER! 

[CARL_DF90]

Ugh. Doom-sayers.

[Dragoonlordz]

I respect Stanley for once speaking his mind on something here rather than just locking threads. He earned a bit of respect from me for once in a blue moon. I like it when you can actually talk to not just get locked down.

BUT to be honest I did play MDK and hated it big time. I also hate DA2 big time but BG, NVN, ME series, Kotor series, DAO I loved now if they could make all future games simular to ones I loved and less like ones I hated I would be happy. lol


I've never played JE, by sounds of it that's a good thing.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[SoR82]

KayakBama wrote...
What priority does Bioware give to the various factors in determining whether Dragon Age 2 is a success?

$$$$$$ plain and simple initial sales were high because of the success of Origins.

[Cataca]

Honestly, its rich speaking of innovation when your quality control and production value was as low as it is. Im not talking about the dialogue wheel, the combat or the story, as a matter of fact i will somewhat agree that they are a matter of taste, and there clearly seem some people that like them. (im not dismissing them as stupid either) But i will never understand people defending the glitches and cut corners, all the reused enviroments and random *kill the group of bloodmages/thieves/templar* filler quests without any discerning background story. Imho that was just utterly lazy.  

[UltiPup]

You JUST know everyone who says they aren't going to get ME3 and DA3 are going to be one of the first who gets them.

[TrooperTethras]

I have been watching this argument go on for some time, and I've finally decided to have a talk about this myself.

Let me start of by saying that I am a massive fan of Bioware and that DAO is one of the best, and most time-stealing, games I have ever played (KotOR will always rank first though). 

So when I picked up my copy of Dragon Age II, loaded it onto the computer and started playing, I was practically biting my nails off in excitement.  

And to me, expecting just a new and improved version of Origins, I believe I got more then my money's worth with the exciting fast-paced combat, the gripping narrative and fantastic graphics and voice-acting.

Prior to buying the game, and hearing how it was all mainly set in Kirkwall, I feared that I would get bored of the city quickly and yearn Origin's level of exploration: But I was so very wrong... I quickly came to love Kirkwall, and all of it's nooks and crannies, even to the point of being a bit sad when I would have to leave the city to explore the sorrounding areas.

Granted the game does have some problems, such as copy-and-paste dungeons, but in my experience I didn't find myself caring that much because I was just too engaged in the world. 

Overall, I found DA2 to be a different beast to Origins, but one that I vastly enjoyed nonetheless, and I was very surprised when I saw that some fellow "Hardcore RPG" players were not experiencing the same breath of fresh air that I was.

Perhaps if Bioware begins work on a sequel (which I extremely hope they do), they should bring back a lot more "unique" explorable environments and a narrative where players can really feel that they are in control of the direction the story takes (as I know that that the whole frame-narrative idea did make some players feel that they weren't in control), but make sure that it retains the "new" feeling I got when playing through DA2.

As for me, I am currently wrapping up my second playthrough of the game and cannot wait for some downloadable content to be released.

(I should probably go post this in the review thread now shouldn't I?)

[AlanC9]

Scimal wrote...

Assassin's Creed
Portal 2
Batman: Arkhum Asylum
Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time
Amnesia: The Dark Descent
Monkey Island 2

All of those are listed as "Adventure" games (Adventure, Action - to be specific).

Adventure games evolved just fine. FMV games died off because technology got better and the acting was horrible in 99% of them.

Note that someone who was a real Monkey Island / Grim Fandango fan wouldn't necessarily accept all of those as Adventure games. Which doesn't  refute your genre definition so much as it points out that you can't tie the future of a genre to fans of a genre.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[graavigala85]

Warheadz wrote...

Herbie_Hind wrote...

You know you've self sabotaged any hope this series or any other game you make has of being purchased.

:lol:

Just wait till ME3.

After ME2 I really dont care

[xkg]

Assassin's Creed listed as Adventure game ???
hmmm dunno maybe there is adventure Assassin's Creed somwhere out there but deffo not the one ive played

[CARL_DF90]

Meh. Mr. Negative. ME3 will blow the other out of the water if Bioware will have any say in the matter, which they do. Have a little faith.

[Dracotamer]

LOL! My thread here states it all...

http://social.biowar...62832/6#7063249

[Everwarden]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Meh. Mr. Negative. ME3 will blow the other out of the water if Bioware will have any say in the matter, which they do. Have a little faith.

I did, until I played DA2. Bioware spent their faith points, and now I will require reviews (from reviewers I trust, not shills like Escapist) to buy their products. I hope the cash in was worth the loss of company reputation for them. 

[ToJKa1]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Jade Empire was seen as a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous" because it was considered "RPG lite," a "dumbing down" of the classic RPG formula into "action RPG," a pejorative thrown around in our forums around that time.

KotOR, despite being a game int he very popular Star Wars franchise, was seen as a "betrayal of our fans" because we were no longer paying homage to our fantasy RPG and Dungeons and Dragons roots. It was considered, often and vociferously on our forums at the time, a "slap in the face" to "all the loyal fans" who "paid our salaries" and "made us famous."

Mass Effect was an original property. Like with Dragon Age Origins, there was a chunk of our comunity who didn't want to risk exposure to something new (what if they didn't like it?) and wanted BioWare to continue making awesome games with licensed properties.

And i hear Neverwinter Nights was streamlined PoS with poor storyline too, and i was here myself to witness the post- Origins and ME2 release ****storms. Quite impressive! How is it that you have any fans left to slap around?

Modifié par ToJKa1, 14 avril 2011 - 11:07 .

[Sabriana]

As far as wanting bioware to adhere to licensed properties, I don't think that is correct. A lot, and I mean a *lot* of fans were quite exited over the switch to their own IP.

Personally, I was happy because WotC was truly going on my nerves, big time. Their ever-ongoing changes for the worst (imo) were driving me up the wall. Their heavy-handed demands of game-devs to adhere to what they declare law in the D&D universe made me want to kick a puppy (a stuffed one, I'm not a violent person *grin*)

Iirc, that was also what many fans said in the old forums. Bioware making its own fantasy world was the best thing I ever heard. Talented writing staff, dedicated creators, a great track-record for RPG's - what could possibly go wrong, thought I.

Then DA 2 happened....

No, I don't hate the game. I think it's a 'meh' game, with many glaring flaws and shortcomings, and that was totally and utterly overpriced. Definitely not worthy of the company that put all their talent/imagination/love-for-the-game into developing their own fantasy world. Inclusive back-story, lore, and books (with letters) to accompany said new fantasy world.

If you want to see the fun and wonderful interactions/discussions (sometimes quite heated) that went on before DA:O hit the shelves, just go and check the old forums. If they are still accessible that is.

[mousestalker]

The old forums are still accessible. There's probably a certain segment of forum regulars that wish we'd return to the old days when I posted less and lurked more...

[Sabriana]

Thanks for the link. Lurking was fun in the old forums. I didn't start posting until I was able to create a new account. The old one asploded somehow. Ahhh, fun times.

You want class? Now there is class, rofl

[Killjoy Cutter]

Scimal wrote...

DA2 isn't a failed game. It's simply an RPG with some above average elements and below average elements. That makes it average (if I've done my averaging correctly).

The genre tag you're looking for with DA2 is "interactive cinematic experience".  

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

I have grave concerns that some future Bioware release might reflect the devs' preferred creative direction instead of adhering slavishly to a formula I enjoyed thirteen years ago! It must have to do entirely with money, as any artist enjoys churning out the same thing over and over again!

Modifié par Tantum Dic Verbo, 14 avril 2011 - 02:01 .