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Why Both BioWare and Disgruntled RPG Fans Have Painted Themselves Into A Corner With DA2


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#1
jds1bio

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The only assumption I'm going to make about you before starting is that, if you like to play RPGs, you like to play roles that are more meaningful than just participating in a game's combat.  For you, an RPG experience is more than just winning combat and watching the next story scene, or losing and being brought to a re-load screen.

So having set that up, let's get to it:

First, BioWare is in a corner, but a rather large and tidy one, because with DA2 they have released what is a complete game with a great story, considerable length and production values, with marked improvements in both electronic role-playing and combat, and full of great choices to make.  (And though you many not like the game, I do).  So what's the big deal, you say?  Well, it's just that BioWare still can't shake themselves from the single-shape main storyline.  A shape that in no way can be altered by your role-playing or the choices you make.

In DA2, your role-playing as future Champion of Kirkwall seems to get off to a great start.  The dialogue and influence on companions gets better and more involved as you go.  But as the game progresses, you begin to realize that there are too many extremist characters whose actions nullify any possible input by the role-player to the overall main storyline.  Furthermore, the time skips during the game nullify the possibilties you may have considered to role-play by thrusting you forward into points in time where it becomes too late to shape the main storyline.  Then, when you finally get to the pinnacle of the role-playing in DA2, the final question, your answer neither shapes the ultimate reactions of the "antagonists", nor does it shape the nature of the final battle.  It does affect the immediate outcome of the battle, but it doesn't affect the outcome of the overall story at all.  And since at the end you are rushed off to battle and the end of the story, you really have no final view of any possible differing consequences to the overall storyline.  I think the journey through the story is still very worthwhile, with lots of choices to be made that impact your experience during the game, just not the overall main story.

The same thing ALMOST happened with Dragon Age: Origins.  Much of what I said about DA2 can be said about DA:O.  The final battle is ultimately just a party configuration applied to the battle system of the game, against the same enemy, with a few scant options for assistance made available by some player choices.  No other role-playing choices really matter to the main story, as there is really just one role (Grey Warden) and one goal (defeat the Blight by slaying the Archdemon).  But the real difference between the two games, and the glimmers of role-playing hope that exist in DA:O, lie in the outcome of He/She who slays the Archdemon, and whether you opt for the option someone gives you late in the game.  Only near the end of DA:O do we really get to see that shaping the outcome of the main storyline, beyond merely who is left standing at the end, is possible.  And this, and nothing else, is the one consumer expectation of RPGs that was left out of Dragon Age II that has BioWare stuck in a corner.

Now, disgruntled BioWare RPG fans are in their own corner because a) they've decided that companies bringing "their" games to a wider audience is bad, and B) they can't decide what is really more important to them in RPGs - the combat or the role-playing.  So much of their RPG experience in the last decade has been with games built around increasingly-accessible battle systems, with tacked-on "skills" or "good/bad scales" that have less to do with the roleplaying and more to do with being a "good-natured" combatant or an "agressive-evil" combatant, or more to do with completing only very specific quests.  So when the player is disappointed by the limited role-playing options in a game that may also overrule their prior decisions, they tend to seek solace in the combat experience.

And while some fans insist that games like DA2 possess a worsened combat experience, some of the combat features are simply here to stay  (like a "Normal" difficulty level that is easier now than in games from 7-10 years ago).  So I don't think games will really get better in the minds of these RPG players unless the actual role-playing begins to improve.  But since with DA2 they're not able see past certain aspects of combat or RPG elements, and the sameness of maps, they're not likely to move out of the corner in this regard to ask for the one thing that might really rescue them - better roleplaying.

This is a shame, because better main story role-playing CAN make a difference, and BioWare can make it happen.  Just look at Mass Effect 2.  ME2 is an example of a game that lost some traditional RPG elements, but made up for it by having the player affect the overall storyline, even one as bare-bones as ME2's storyline.  In ME2 the life or death decisions join up with the narration of the final battle, especially since you can't fight the entire battle with just one party while leaving the others chilling on the ship.  Because the main storyline is so bare-bones, your gang, your leadership, and who lives and who dies BECOMES the story worth telling.

Also, look at what BioWare has done inside DA2.  The Friendship/Rivalry and dialogue aspects allow for great variaion in affecting your companions and NPCs beyond just life or death, and beyond your Hawke merely being in a romantic relationship with them.  You just have to play the game and seek them out, the possibilities and the mechanics are there.  It's just too bad that none of these systems have an impact on the shape of the overall main storyline.

Now all the games mentioned do have something in common, RPG elements aside - they are all great games.  But as gamers become increasingly jaded, and combat in games trends towards greater generalization of features, there has to be something that both RPG gamers and devs can look to and say, "Yes, this can make these games stand out above all others."  And that something, I believe, is great role-playing that can shape the overall main story into a satisfying topology for both gamer and developer.  But until the disgruntled fans are willing to move beyond combat features to seek out role-playing, and BioWare is willing to move beyond an immutable story shape, they will remain huddled up in their respective corners without being able to meet.

Thank you for your attention.

#2
Rockpopple

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Thank you for the very interesting read.

#3
Khayness

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Great read there.

Every fleshed out questlines are about combat (even the so called dating service one eventually boils down to it aswell), and you can't really interact with your companions that much like in previous games. The highlight of each new act for me was to check up on the folks.

In ME1/2 you can spend hours doing nothing but touring the ship and talking with people, not to mention DA:O, even JE had it to some degree. And there are many non combat quests to fool around with (like the Hub worlds in ME1/2, in DA:O they were mostly fetch quests, but atleast most of them had a short story arc, no "Hi, I've found the body of your dead aunt, this must be yours" quests).

No innovation isn't the true genre death, adopting the conveyor belt like "let's push out games mad fast" attitude is, which isn't really compatible with RPG development.

#4
Lord Gremlin

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Nice post. Although people agreed about story in DA2 being linear and player choice being unimportant long ago, and yes, that is the problem.
Let me correct you about Origins ending. Yes, Archdemon is being slain. But you decide who will slay it and become a hero, and you decide if Archdemon's essence is destroyed of preserved. Also, you decide who will rule the country that's been saved from Archdemon.
In DA2 you decide... Basically nothing. At all. THAT is the problem.

#5
Thelzar

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Lots of good points.

#6
Lord_Valandil

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Lord Gremlin wrote...

Nice post. Although people agreed about story in DA2 being linear and player choice being unimportant long ago, and yes, that is the problem.
Let me correct you about Origins ending. Yes, Archdemon is being slain. But you decide who will slay it and become a hero, and you decide if Archdemon's essence is destroyed of preserved. Also, you decide who will rule the country that's been saved from Archdemon.
In DA2 you decide... Basically nothing. At all. That is one of the problems.


True. Just a little fix at the end.

#7
Montana

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Lord Gremlin wrote...

Nice post. Although people agreed about story in DA2 being linear and player choice being unimportant long ago, and yes, that is the problem.
Let me correct you about Origins ending. Yes, Archdemon is being slain. But you decide who will slay it and become a hero, and you decide if Archdemon's essence is destroyed of preserved. Also, you decide who will rule the country that's been saved from Archdemon.
In DA2 you decide... Basically nothing. At all. THAT is the problem.


In DA2 you...
...decide whitch side to take, then end up fighting them both anyway.

#8
Rockpopple

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Actually there are choices in DA2, especially if we're gonna compare endings. Besides the obvious "which side will you take", you decide who lives and dies - including family members in the ending. You also decide who will rule Kirkwall in the end.

Sorry if these were spoilers, but there's no other way to counter the false arguments going around that there are no choices in the ending of DA 2, not to mention a lot of choices throughout the game.

#9
Lord_Valandil

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Rockpopple wrote...

Actually there are choices in DA2, especially if we're gonna compare endings. Besides the obvious "which side will you take", you decide who lives and dies - including family members in the ending. You also decide who will rule Kirkwall in the end.

Sorry if these were spoilers, but there's no other way to counter the false arguments going around that there are no choices in the ending of DA 2, not to mention a lot of choices throughout the game.


Spoilers removed.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 11 avril 2011 - 08:10 .


#10
Razzoul-

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I have no beef with the new combat system or even the game being easier. What I am against is the re-spawning waves of enemies, the linear story where I make no major choices, and the reuse of environments to a point where seeing something new completely shocks me.
Is this enough of a reason to not like this game?

#11
Rockpopple

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@ Lord_valandil, this is a non-spoiler forum. Could you remove some of the really big spoilers you put in that post? This is a good topic, and I'd rather the whole thread not get locked-down because of spoilers.

Edit: Thanks.

Anyway, my point was simply that there are choices in the end of DA 2, and throughout DA 2, really. Anyone curious and not concerned with Spoilers should check out the Spoiler-Okayed forums on this website.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 11 avril 2011 - 08:12 .


#12
AkiKishi

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They made too many changes in the combat system. That's the key difference between ME2 and DA2. A lot of people liked ME2's combat system irrespective of the game. Not many people seem to like DA2's combat system. Another problem with DA2 is there is nothing outstanding about it, there is nothing that drags everything else up like in ME2.

It's all just "ok" or worse.

#13
Lord_Valandil

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Rockpopple wrote...

@ Lord_valandil, this is a non-spoiler forum. Could you remove some of the really big spoilers you put in that post? This is a good topic, and I'd rather the whole thread not get locked-down because of spoilers.


Sorry about that. It's a really good topic, so I don't want it to be taken down.

#14
Khayness

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Rockpopple wrote...

Actually there are choices in DA2, especially if we're gonna compare endings. Besides the obvious "which side will you take", you decide who lives and dies - including family members in the ending. You also decide who will rule Kirkwall in the end.

Sorry if these were spoilers, but there's no other way to counter the false arguments going around that there are no choices in the ending of DA 2, not to mention a lot of choices throughout the game.


Comparing the endgame choices of both games is like weighting your options of breakfast cereals and whether or not donating one of your kidneys to save a life.

Post-Coronation talk/Funeral scene + Epilogues > Varric talking + the sequel hook lines at the end.

DA:O had a nice closure and you could feel the impact of your choices. DA2 however, does not provide the same experience.

Modifié par Khayness, 11 avril 2011 - 08:14 .


#15
jds1bio

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Rockpopple wrote...

Actually there are choices in DA2, especially if we're gonna compare endings. Besides the obvious "which side will you take", you decide who lives and dies - including family members in the ending. You also decide who will rule Kirkwall in the end.

Sorry if these were spoilers, but there's no other way to counter the false arguments going around that there are no choices in the ending of DA 2, not to mention a lot of choices throughout the game.


I second most of this.  I've had varied experiences from playthrough to playthrough.  Battles were avoided.  Companions could help me out from time to time.  I did a few dastardly things myself on occasion. 

But my issue is that there are no choices that shape the overall storyline outcome or the meaning of the final battle.  I don't want to spoil anything beyond that, but the same story can be written no matter which side you take.

#16
Ronin2006

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Interesting read, and while I respectfully disagree on many points, I appreciate the time, thought and effort that has gone into this post.

It's ironic that a post as well thought out and complicated as yours actually has some glaring oversimplifications.  I don't want to get into a big argument because I really respect the way you have gone about things, however, I will say that there are some things that I would like to address.

First, you make an assumption about what people who like RPGs like.  (story moreso than combat)  I think this is completely misguided, and while both of us are presenting an opinion here, I honestly feel that many "traditional" RPGers will tell you just how much they value the combat experience regardless of the story.

Second, you argue that traditional RPGers dislike the combat in DA 2, then point to some things like the "normal" difficulty as being an example.  I think you will find that many of the gripes people had with the combat extended beyond this area and were more to do with things like the exploding bodies, waves of enemies spawning from nowhere, and the re-use of environments (there are many others, but I'll just leave it at that).  The easier "Normal" difficulty had little to do with these complaints, and the general complaints people had were little to do with features that are "here to stay" but a part of DA 2's specific gameplay.

Third, I honestly doubt the assertion that traditional RPGers are unhappy that Bioware are trying to bring their game to a wider audience.  DA O sold what? 4 million copies or so?  (not sure on the exact figure).  I doubt too many traditional RPGers were concerned that the title was relatively mainstream anyway.  While I can speak only for myself, I could care less if someone who plays COD likes DA.  The fact is, I like DA O, and nothing affects that.  People are more unhappy that their tastes were neglected in favour of another audience, when they had been the ones supporting Bioware for years and not the other audience that they were trying to capture.

Fourth, I sort of agree on the idea of Bioware creating an immutable story shape and putting themselves in a corner, but honestly, you have simplified it way too much.  There are virtually endless possibilities in the way Bioware could have designed the story, the characters, the interactions and the plot to address the corner that they found themselves in, but they didn't and that ultimately is nobody elses fault but their own.  You cannot blame the consumer for having their own set of expectations.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 11 avril 2011 - 08:56 .


#17
Rockpopple

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@jds1bio - Yup, I agree. I just think that for the most part the same can be said of DA:O. In fact, I think that if the ending scenes were longer with an epilogue - like in DA:O, most people woudn't see any daylight between the two endings.

#18
MingWolf

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Nice reads, though I agree with most of Ronin2006's points.

#19
jds1bio

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Ronin2006 wrote...

Interesting read, and while a
respectfully disagree on many points, I appreciate the time, thought and
effort that has gone into this post.

It's ironic thing that a
post as well thought out and complicated as yours actually has some
glaring oversimplifications.  I don't want to get into a big argument
because I really respect the way you have gone about things, however, I
will say that there are some things that I would like to address.


Thank you for your feedback.  I don't mind if people come in and disagree and want to debate, please do so.

I do think many disgruntled RPG fans, because they've so readily accepted certain aspects of RPGs over the years, haven't thought about whether combat or roleplaying is more important.  But you and many other traditional RPG players may know exactly where you stand.  I'd love to hear from more of you. 

But those who give feedback only about combat may or may not get better RPG combat the next time.  But asking a developer to think about the role-playing aspects of an RPG where the main story is concerned, SHOULD make some kind of impact on combat (particularly in the climactic scenes).  Plus, there is a chance there that combat could be improved for everyone across the board once this is done. 

I just don't want people in both corners to deny themselves that chance to look at things from that angle.  It's not the consumer's fault if a developer doesn't do this, but the consumer implicitly supports certain trends by continuing to buy games in the millions.

Modifié par jds1bio, 11 avril 2011 - 08:40 .


#20
AkiKishi

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jds1bio wrote...
Thank you for your feedback.  I don't mind if people come in and disagree and want to debate, please do so.

I do think many disgruntled RPG fans, because they've so readily accepted certain aspects of RPGs over the years, haven't thought about whether combat or roleplaying is more important.  But you and many other traditional RPG players may know exactly where you stand.  I'd love to hear from more of you. 

But those who give feedback only about combat may or may not get better RPG combat the next time.  But asking a developer to think about the role-playing aspects of an RPG where the main story is concerned, SHOULD make some kind of impact on combat (particularly in the climactic scenes).  Plus, there is a chance there that combat could be improved for everyone across the board once this is done. 

I just don't want people in both corners to deny themselves that chance to look at things from that angle.  It's not the consumer's fault if a developer doesn't do this, but the consumer implicitly supports certain trends by continuing to buy games in the millions.


DA needs to make it its mind pretty sharpish,whether it is an action RPG or a strategy RPG. At the moment like a lot of hybrids is the worst of both.

Bioware have made the same sort of error SquareEnix did with FFXIII thinking that combat made a game mainstream or not. Just streamlining a few things does not make a game mainstream.All that seems to do is annoy the RPG "oldeguard". Which in Bioware case seems to make up a large proportion of their fanbase.

#21
MrTijger

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Which in Bioware case seems to make up a large proportion of their fanbase.


No, its a loud proportion, whether they actually have numbers is an altogether more unclear issue, if 5000 people rage on a forum it might seem that way but thats less than half a percent of the game buyers.

Modifié par MrTijger, 11 avril 2011 - 09:01 .


#22
AkiKishi

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MrTijger wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which in Bioware case seems to make up a large proportion of their fanbase.


No, its a loud proportion, whether they actually have numbers is an altogether more unclear issue, if 5000 people rage on a forum it might seem that way but thats less than half a percent of the game buyers.


I don't think you understood. A fanbase is generated by the type of games a developer makes. The FF fanbase liked FF games, it's why they became fans. Besided the foray into Jade Empire, Bioware have always made the same sorts of games. If you look at DA2's sales this is borne out. Week 1 very good,pre-orders and people expecting a sequel to DA. After week 1 a rapid downward trend.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 11 avril 2011 - 09:11 .


#23
AgentWhale

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The endings of both games (please note I haven't finished DA2 yet so just going on here-say) must reach a singularity point for sequel purposes.

In DA:O it was the Archdemon and Blight being defeated.

In DA2 it is whatever it is.

You can't make a sequel for a game unless there is this single point. That's the reason your choices are limited.

#24
Reinveil

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A good post, and there is much within that I agree with. However, I feel you are perhaps over-simplifying why this game has received such a large backlash. Linearity and issues with combat (which are indeed often cited) are only a small part of a growing list of complaints.

For the most part, though, your analysis rings true! Especially in regards to Mass Effect 2 - a perfect example of streamlined game design done right.

Edit: Also, I don't think Bioware fans take umbrage with the games finding a wider audience, it's the design choices they made that appear to be influenced by focus groups or preconceived notions about what "gamers" want  that are the issue.

Modifié par Reinveil, 11 avril 2011 - 09:57 .


#25
Barefoot Warrior

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Very good read, thanks. One issue I have is that the term 'RPG' seems to have a wide definition now. What is the real definition of RPG now days? True role playing should allow you to shape or create your character(s) and define how that character will affect the game as you play no matter what the story. Your choices should affect how that story develops and ends. In my mind, I always had the RPG elements separate from the combat elements. That is, the combat elements were just part of the game, not the actual role play as such. Not being a hard core player doesn't help either, I don't have that much time to spend on playing games, but I do enjoy RPG and the occasional shooter. Anymore, I'm not clear on what is what. I guess that this one reason why I was disappointed with DA2, the choices I made did not really seem to change anything for the story nor could I really do anything with my character or team mates. So, is DA2 an RPG? At this point, I really don't know. I may raise an eyebrow or two by saying that if we had guns instead of swords, I would have thought I was playing a shooter. In my mind, there are many elements that are part of an RPG, and combat is one of them, along with character customization. Just my thoughts on the subject.