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Why Both BioWare and Disgruntled RPG Fans Have Painted Themselves Into A Corner With DA2


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#126
Raphael diSanto

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Haexpane wrote...

The type of "choice" i want isn't

1 Say something snarky for medium reward
2. Say something nice for min reward
3. say something mean for PHAT LEWTs you won't be able to use

The "choice" I want that is meaningful is

Should my Rogue go Archer or Assassin? What type of armor should I put him in? Should I go dual wield? Poison or Bard?

IMO that is RPG in gaming CHOICE.

The ME2 style of choice is just a digital "choose your own adventure" paperback from 1982


You know, I play these games precisely because they -are- digital versions of the old Steve Jackson choose your own adventure books, and I LOVE them that way.

Sorry.

The types of choices you want, are the -exact- types of choices i want to be completely meaningless in my games. I don't want it to matter whether I'm a warrior or an archer, or a bard, or a juggler juggling flaming batons. I want to progress through the story, making choices and decisions that are appropriate to my character's personality.

Whether I'm a warrior or a rogue is unimportant to The Story. Whether I kill the helpless mage cowering in front of me should be.

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 13 avril 2011 - 03:45 .


#127
jds1bio

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Ariella wrote...

Okay, I can get that, I think a better word would be reactivity, which actually does change as one uses dialogue types. Both from other people and from Hawke. Best example is in the prologue, Hawke's reaction about going to Kirkwall is based on vocal choice before hand, as is the discussion about going into the Wilds.

This happens throughout the game, though it is subtle at times.

As for the Witcher, I've tried playing it three times now, and just cannot get through the section inside the city proper and the marsh. Maybe Geralt is more personable in the novels, but I found him as lively as a corpse in the game, and honestly I didn't see much reactivity, except siding with one faction allows you access to one armory and the other faction the other.


The dialogue reactivity, as you say, totally works in DA2, especially in the side-banter conversations, but I think some people who might be used to the older dialogue system missed it.  A shame then, because it's really good, except when a red-labeled "No" ends up meaning "Yes" anyways.

One final word from me about The Witcher - it's not an easy game to play.  And I don't mean combat difficulty.  That swamp is one of the best videogame swamps in existence, but boy is it a pain to traverse back and forth all the time.  And you have to pay in-game money to be able to read some codexes.  But the way the reactivity is used in the game, especially in the final stages, is really really clever.  Without spoiling anything, the game sets you up as the eventual hero (obvious) while simultaneously holding you partially responsible for the events going on because you are around and because of the stances you take (subtle).  Which sounds like what Cassandra is doing to Hawke in DA2, but the way the reactivity is used in The Witcher's story convinces you to consider accepting responsibility somehow.  Something I find hard to do with DA2.

Still, every day I see a new thread on here about when BioWare is coming out with the DA2 Enhanced Edition for free, because, "you know, that's what they did with The Witcher".  What these posters don't know is that even with the Enhanced Edition, The Witcher can still crash on you, has lots of copy-paste NPC head and bodies, copy-paste interiors, and your quests require you to visit the same caves more than once or twice.  There's only one city, the city layouts never change, the vanquished foes are bloody and can explode, you only get a few armor choices, and you can't dress up any companions or NPCs in armor.  Sound like any other game you know?

Ok, back to DA2.

#128
Dagiz

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Raphael diSanto wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

The type of "choice" i want isn't

1 Say something snarky for medium reward
2. Say something nice for min reward
3. say something mean for PHAT LEWTs you won't be able to use

The "choice" I want that is meaningful is

Should my Rogue go Archer or Assassin? What type of armor should I put him in? Should I go dual wield? Poison or Bard?

IMO that is RPG in gaming CHOICE.

The ME2 style of choice is just a digital "choose your own adventure" paperback from 1982


You know, I play these games precisely because they -are- digital versions of the old Steve Jackson choose your own adventure books, and I LOVE them that way.

Sorry.

The types of choices you want, are the -exact- types of choices i want to be completely meaningless in my games. I don't want it to matter whether I'm a warrior or an archer, or a bard, or a juggler juggling flaming batons. I want to progress through the story, making choices and decisions that are appropriate to my character's personality.

Whether I'm a warrior or a rogue is unimportant to The Story. Whether I kill the helpless mage cowering in front of me should be.




I feel the same way.  One reason NWN just didn't do it for me (and the same with NWN2 OC) was the story felt rehashed...like I already went and did this particular thing a while ago.  DA:O had the same sort of story, but there were differences in the setting (thedas vs. forgotten realms) and also a completely different lore, which I found added to the story in DA:O.  I did like the story that was done in DAII...I just think it could have been told a little bit better. 

Modifié par Dagiz, 13 avril 2011 - 04:29 .


#129
jds1bio

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Dagiz wrote...

I did like the story that was done in DAII...I just think it could have been told a little bit better. 


I wonder how they could have used Varric more to give us story breaks that add a different flavor to the gameplay from time to time.  I think he actually did this once, not counting the opening minutes of the game.

And when I think about the "unreliable narrator" concept, I'm always reminded of Sam Elliot in The Big Lebowski.  The way he opens that movie, you have no idea where he's going with it, but you do know when he gets sidetracked.  And just about every scene in that movie is exaggerated, we don't know what we're being told from time to time, and why.

And Varric could have easily used the same outtro to that movie as his closing of DA2.

#130
axl99

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While I'm all for empathizing with differing opinions, I never take kindly to the ones that are forced upon people. This thread's been a godsend so far in the sense there's a real discussion beyond mud-slinging.

Random ramblings are as follows:

If the new UI was gutted and just listed all the dialogue options, it'd have been a scrolling/formatting nightmare. Counter-intuitive and simply unelegant design-wise. Otherwise it'd have been hilarious to see a visual pun on the dialogue tree by actually having bushels of branches that fan out to reveal your options.

The issue most commonly associated with the combat system in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and DA:O was the roll of the die mechanic. You could be foot away from someone and still miss due to random number generation. That might've worked for pen and paper, but it wasn't plausible enough from a visual point of view - and there weren't any dodging animations to boot. It works out more or less for those who played as mages, at least any missing involved could be explained away with the inconsistent and transient nature of magic.

The "hack and slash" aspect of DA2 I can get around because of its direct/involving nature. Plenty of games have tried making button pressing fun, I usually found the ones from Capcom or SNK more interesting since it involved a combination of memorization, timing and twitch reflexes.

The storytelling I thought could've been compressed further. The first two acts alone could be condensed into one with an extra pinch of illustrated narrative - not just to enhance what's there in the codex but to solidify Hawke's origin story through all quests great and small and develop connections with people. Case in point, Assassin's Creed 2. It already did tons of things that DA2 could've done well - gameplay variation and level design - except the fact that since its story is heavily event-driven it tends to handle character relationships in a more cut and dry manner.

The real reason why I even brought it up was because I played them side by side as a comparison to cosmetic changes to a city vs the relationship you maintain with the people in a city. In DA2, it's ridiculously subtle. NPCs will talk to you or your companions on occasion and banter with them, but a player could be so busy getting from point A to point B that they might miss it entirely.

The proximity-based audio balancing issues might also be at fault here, who knows.

I just wished there were more ways to earn gold around Kirkwall than fetch quests or killing a few evil doers here and there. Off the top of my head, that might require mini-games, or the simplest solution would be just changing numerical values on rewards for certain quests. You'd figure some of the more affluent members of Hightown could throw around money like breadcrumbs to a flock of pigeons. But nope. They're as stingy as the rest of the world. A quest where you could pull off a heist to steal some noble's riches would've been hilarious and poetic justice.

The conflict in the last act needed more time to mature, not that I mind the antagonists, I'd love to see them developed further and see the twists and turns they took to get to where they are. Even that might not have to be revealed in gameplay, Cassandra can pretty much get it all out of Varric.

Which brings me to another missed opportunity in storytelling mechanics, the dynamic between a compulsive liar who knows the truth and a inquisitor who only has bits and pieces of the whole puzzle. While that might take away some control we have over Hawke, it can still be constrained as exposition for upcoming acts.

Modifié par axl99, 13 avril 2011 - 05:37 .


#131
Sabriana

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There was too much "telling" and too little "showing."

For example:

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? Show me some of them. Who did she screw over? What happened, and how did anything change? What was the reason? Did they lose their fortunes? Their families? What?

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape.

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.

#132
Taritu

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Lord_Valandil wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Actually there are choices in DA2, especially if we're gonna compare endings. Besides the obvious "which side will you take", you decide who lives and dies - including family members in the ending. You also decide who will rule Kirkwall in the end.

Sorry if these were spoilers, but there's no other way to counter the false arguments going around that there are no choices in the ending of DA 2, not to mention a lot of choices throughout the game.


Spoilers removed.


I sure didn't decide who ruled Kirkwall in the end.  I guess my choices effected whether my sibling lived or died, but really, that's not saying much.  I didn't save many mages when I sided with the mages, as best I can tell.  I walk out of there alone, not with a bunch of saved mages.   Haven't finished the game siding with Templars, but... blech.

#133
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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Sabriana wrote...

There was too much "telling" and too little "showing."

For example:

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? Show me some of them. Who did she screw over? What happened, and how did anything change? What was the reason? Did they lose their fortunes? Their families? What?

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape.

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.


Pretty much my complaint with the whole game. Wouldn't know time passes without Varric. As far as I was concerned the timeline for the game was a few months. Don't have my family tell me they're concerned about me being a mage when the game does everything in its power to point out that my magery will be ignored.

#134
Morroian

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Sabriana wrote...

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing.

Just like we got TOLD most of the consequences of our choices in DAO.

#135
Sabriana

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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

There was too much "telling" and too little "showing."

For example:

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? Show me some of them. Who did she screw over? What happened, and how did anything change? What was the reason? Did they lose their fortunes? Their families? What?

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape.

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.


Pretty much my complaint with the whole game. Wouldn't know time passes without Varric. As far as I was concerned the timeline for the game was a few months. Don't have my family tell me they're concerned about me being a mage when the game does everything in its power to point out that my magery will be ignored.


Yeah, really. Fenris' concern for mageHawke in the Gallows was nice, but misplaced. Why, she could fire off spells righ there in the templar stronghold, and no one would notice.....

Wait! She did! Coming right of the refugee boat. Oh well....

#136
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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Sabriana wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

There was too much "telling" and too little "showing."

For example:

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? Show me some of them. Who did she screw over? What happened, and how did anything change? What was the reason? Did they lose their fortunes? Their families? What?

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape.

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.


Pretty much my complaint with the whole game. Wouldn't know time passes without Varric. As far as I was concerned the timeline for the game was a few months. Don't have my family tell me they're concerned about me being a mage when the game does everything in its power to point out that my magery will be ignored.


Yeah, really. Fenris' concern for mageHawke in the Gallows was nice, but misplaced. Why, she could fire off spells righ there in the templar stronghold, and no one would notice.....

Wait! She did! Coming right of the refugee boat. Oh well....


The clearest resolution to the whole mage problem is to make them all protagonists in Bioware titles.

Congrats! You're free!

#137
erynnar

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Sabriana wrote...

There was too much "telling" and too little "showing."

For example:

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? Show me some of them. Who did she screw over? What happened, and how did anything change? What was the reason? Did they lose their fortunes? Their families? What?

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape.

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.


And hello you gorgeous purple haired, smart gal! :D  You said what I have been saying.  As a writer, show don't tell, and this game broke that rule of good story telling all to hell and back. I thought I was the only one who picked up on DA2's major flaw.

#138
erynnar

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MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

There was too much "telling" and too little "showing."

For example:

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? Show me some of them. Who did she screw over? What happened, and how did anything change? What was the reason? Did they lose their fortunes? Their families? What?

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape.

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.


Pretty much my complaint with the whole game. Wouldn't know time passes without Varric. As far as I was concerned the timeline for the game was a few months. Don't have my family tell me they're concerned about me being a mage when the game does everything in its power to point out that my magery will be ignored.


Yeah, really. Fenris' concern for mageHawke in the Gallows was nice, but misplaced. Why, she could fire off spells righ there in the templar stronghold, and no one would notice.....

Wait! She did! Coming right of the refugee boat. Oh well....


The clearest resolution to the whole mage problem is to make them all protagonists in Bioware titles.

Congrats! You're free!


ROFL! I haven't played as a mage...still debating a second playthrough and whether it is worth it just to try it out. Watched hubby play one, and a blood mage no less.  He would run in front of templars and do a spell then say, "Nope, no mage here!"  And the dialogue talking about blood magic and it's evil evil ways, even by Hawke when my hubby was one!  Talk about being two faced, even to companions!  

Someone told me that Varric bribes the templars to keep them off your back in Act 1-2 until you become the champion.  Seriously? He could bribe every templar? There aren't any templars with the same fanatacism of Meredtith, where no amount of money would matter? The mercs you work for wouldn't sell you out once out of their service (people who would sell their own mothers)?  Really? There is a lot of suspension of disbelief required in DA2.  I mean there was some in DAO, what story doesn't have some, right? But this much? :blink::whistle:

#139
Morroian

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Sabriana wrote...

Aveline "tells" Hawke that she is the center of a hurricane and changed many peoples fortune, sometimes not for the better." Oh yeah? Which people? 

Just to take 1 example, Feynriel

Sabriana wrote...

The expedition would certainly have happened without Hawke. There was an alternate financier available, and Varric didn't object to him at all.

Would he have been accepted without Hawke, would the expedition have made it as far as the idol?

Sabriana wrote...

Without Hawke the Arishok would've ruled? Please. Without Meredith, Hawke and Co would be dead, courtesy of a single Qunari. Orsino was quite successful with his bid. The Arishok has come ashore with a limited number of men, and kept losing them. He was successful in cowering civilians, Meredith, Orsino and the guards would've kicked his butt.

Yet no-one was able to stop them terrorising Kirkwall, occupying Viscounts Keep and killing Dumar. 

Sabriana wrote...

I get "told" a lot of things, I get "shown" almost nothing. I am "told" 3 years have passed, but I can't see it. No changes, not in companions, nor in landscape, nor in cityscape. 

You get shown changes in the way Hawke is treated, but yes there should have been more.

Sabriana wrote...

Don't "tell" me things, "show" me those things. Talk is cheap, show me some results, and show me how my pixel gal's actions had any kind of input pertaining those results.

Its in the game you just want to try and explain it away eg. the deep roads expedition, sounds like what you want is an alternate worlds tale of what would happen if Hawke wasn't there. Hawke doesn't make a lot of choices which affect the course of the story, especially in Act 3, but it does show how important Hawke was as a catalyst given his/her involvement in the events which led to the finale..

Modifié par Morroian, 13 avril 2011 - 06:29 .


#140
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Tommy6860 wrote...

Interesting points. I find myself fairly hardcore when it comes to RPGs. As you, I don't mind combat, as long as the combat is driven for the purpose of the story. Considering your taste, I find it odd you liked DA2 even somewhat. The only aspects I liked were; the character models were better, the mage powers were certainly nice (though I miss the charge up spells that made some magic battles in Origins tense when I had to charge that spell). And the armors/outfits were definitely great looking, maybe some of the best I have ever seen.

Outside of those aspects, I felt no connection to my companions, didn't feel my PC dialogue was mine and it felt abrupt and broken many times. The script in the game went from being decent to near atrocious. What bothered me most, was that so many elements of the game were copied from ME2, that it lost much of its originality, as I know Mass Effect among the best of them. I loved ME, but I didn't need to see DA copy its elements and mechanisms.

Edit; I forgot to add, the story. Could there be a more poiintless journey with nearly all of the quests having little to nothing to to do with the story to an end that was, "OK, what happened"?


*grin* Believe me, if I wanted to go on about DA2's deficiencies as an RPG (or at least what I consider to be an RPG) I could do so. :) As a role-player there were many changes from DAO I didn't agree with.

But at the end of the day, despite what I felt was lacking, the game entertained me. I didn't come out of the experience thinking it sucked. I came out thinking it was better than I'd expected, but not as good as I'd hoped. *shrug*

#141
AkiKishi

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Here is my general question: Is there any point "roleplaying" a pre-generated character ?

It can work if the character has no memories, and you discover them together. But for a character with a predetermined history and personality, is there really any point picking from a list?

#142
Maria13

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Interesting points. I find myself fairly hardcore when it comes to RPGs. As you, I don't mind combat, as long as the combat is driven for the purpose of the story. Considering your taste, I find it odd you liked DA2 even somewhat. The only aspects I liked were; the character models were better, the mage powers were certainly nice (though I miss the charge up spells that made some magic battles in Origins tense when I had to charge that spell). And the armors/outfits were definitely great looking, maybe some of the best I have ever seen.

Outside of those aspects, I felt no connection to my companions, didn't feel my PC dialogue was mine and it felt abrupt and broken many times. The script in the game went from being decent to near atrocious. What bothered me most, was that so many elements of the game were copied from ME2, that it lost much of its originality, as I know Mass Effect among the best of them. I loved ME, but I didn't need to see DA copy its elements and mechanisms.

Edit; I forgot to add, the story. Could there be a more poiintless journey with nearly all of the quests having little to nothing to to do with the story to an end that was, "OK, what happened"?


*grin* Believe me, if I wanted to go on about DA2's deficiencies as an RPG (or at least what I consider to be an RPG) I could do so. :) As a role-player there were many changes from DAO I didn't agree with.

But at the end of the day, despite what I felt was lacking, the game entertained me. I didn't come out of the experience thinking it sucked. I came out thinking it was better than I'd expected, but not as good as I'd hoped. *shrug*


With you on this SoLD.  It didn't have that strange magic touch that DA:O had but I didn't find it a bad or unentertaining game by any means... Just not quite so inspiring.

#143
Jamesnew2

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Very good read and many valuable posts.

As the generation that grew up post baldurs gate and more kotor area i personally prefered DA2 but only wish it had been a complete game. DAO although in my eyes not as intresting was a complete game while DA2 in my eyes is around 75 % of a game that needs to be filled in, If with dlc or patches.

#144
Sabriana

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@ Morroian


THERE COULD BE SPOILERS!!! Watch out!!!



I am not going to quote any picked apart post, that would take up far too much space. Feynriel is an interesting character, but he doesn't represent "many people". Hawke saves him from a certain fate, but he certainly isn't important enough to make Kirkwall history in any way, shape, or form. He could have been, he was certainly intriguing, but he was just left by the wayside.

Aside from that, in my play-through he ended up exactly where he would have ended up had Hawke not interfered. Detailed explanations would be to spoilerish, but given a certain country's practices regarding timid mages (per Fenris), he could have easily ended up just in the same predicament that the original 'business-person' had in mind for him.Who knows. I'm neither told nor shown enough in that regard.

Varric is the one who encouraged Hawke to use the alternate financier. Hawke denied it, she wanted to reap the profit all herself. The alternate financier could have easily found another patsy, even Varric himself. Iirc, Bartrand wasn't too thrilled about Hawke, he more or less told her to STFU and GTHO. If they missed the idol without Hawke, they could be labeled legally blind. The way it was set up, there was no way other than straight toward it.

They terrorized Kirkwall? When? Iirc, they were the ones being constantly attacked. Especially through one particular person and her trained templar hound. When they attacked it came as a surprise for everyone, including Hawke and Aveline.

I don't care if it's in the game. I don't want to be told what happened. I want to see what happened. I want to shape my pixel person, and I want her to interact with the game world. I want her to matter, make a difference, be *in* the world. I don't want her to just be along for the ride, cleaning up the messes the NPC's make because *they* make choices that change things.

If I want to be told a story, I ask for it. If I want to watch a movie, I go get one. If I want to play an action RPG, I get one of those. I expected something and got something completely unexpected and unwanted. My fault? Perhaps. But for me, a RPG is show, not tell. Mileage may vary.

I'm not going into the DA:O vs. DA 2 issue. I'm not bashing DA 2 because of DA:O. I have little problem disliking it on its own. I love DA:O, but I'm not blind to its faults. I do not like DA 2 much because imo it has far too many glaring flaws that I simply can't overlook or explain away. DA 2 will always be 'meh' to me. That will never change. It's the way I see it, and more importantly, it's the way I feel it.

#145
Dracotamer

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DA:2 wasn't an improvement in many ways in the eyes of a large amount, dare I say majority of Bioware fans.

#146
AgentWhale

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Dracotamer wrote...

DA:2 wasn't an improvement in many ways in the eyes of a large amount, dare I say majority of Bioware fans.


Just speak for yourself. I've noticed a lot of rants where people, to back up their assertions, claim that many others hold the same view.

It does not help your case.

#147
AkiKishi

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AgentWhale wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

DA:2 wasn't an improvement in many ways in the eyes of a large amount, dare I say majority of Bioware fans.


Just speak for yourself. I've noticed a lot of rants where people, to back up their assertions, claim that many others hold the same view.

It does not help your case.


Considering that what determines whether or not something is good or bad is collective opinion , the more people who share the opinion, the stronger the claim.

#148
Cybermortis

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AgentWhale wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

DA:2 wasn't an improvement in many ways in the eyes of a large amount, dare I say majority of Bioware fans.


Just speak for yourself. I've noticed a lot of rants where people, to back up their assertions, claim that many others hold the same view.

It does not help your case.


Just take a hard look at the stickied thread at the top of the board where people have been posting what they think DA2 got right or wrong. You'll notice that the problems listed are consistant with each other, regardless of if the poster liked the game or not. There is some variation in areas - such as having a voiced protaganist - where individual taste comes into play. But on the whole people are saying the exact same things.

#149
Tommy6860

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Interesting points. I find myself fairly hardcore when it comes to RPGs. As you, I don't mind combat, as long as the combat is driven for the purpose of the story. Considering your taste, I find it odd you liked DA2 even somewhat. The only aspects I liked were; the character models were better, the mage powers were certainly nice (though I miss the charge up spells that made some magic battles in Origins tense when I had to charge that spell). And the armors/outfits were definitely great looking, maybe some of the best I have ever seen.

Outside of those aspects, I felt no connection to my companions, didn't feel my PC dialogue was mine and it felt abrupt and broken many times. The script in the game went from being decent to near atrocious. What bothered me most, was that so many elements of the game were copied from ME2, that it lost much of its originality, as I know Mass Effect among the best of them. I loved ME, but I didn't need to see DA copy its elements and mechanisms.

Edit; I forgot to add, the story. Could there be a more poiintless journey with nearly all of the quests having little to nothing to to do with the story to an end that was, "OK, what happened"?


*grin* Believe me, if I wanted to go on about DA2's deficiencies as an RPG (or at least what I consider to be an RPG) I could do so. :) As a role-player there were many changes from DAO I didn't agree with.

But at the end of the day, despite what I felt was lacking, the game entertained me. I didn't come out of the experience thinking it sucked. I came out thinking it was better than I'd expected, but not as good as I'd hoped. *shrug*


Well, I have to say that is probably the most refreshing *overall* opinion I have seen for DA2. I am happy you liked it, though I did not, and that is what it really is about to be honest. It was just nice to see someone who sees what it lacked, yet enjoyed it to the degree of what the game offered.. Certainly a different perspective and thanks.

:)

#150
jds1bio

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Sabriana wrote...


I don't care if it's in the game. I don't want to be told what happened. I want to see what happened. I want to shape my pixel person, and I want her to interact with the game world. I want her to matter, make a difference, be *in* the world. I don't want her to just be along for the ride, cleaning up the messes the NPC's make because *they* make choices that change things.

If I want to be told a story, I ask for it. If I want to watch a movie, I go get one. If I want to play an action RPG, I get one of those. I expected something and got something completely unexpected and unwanted. My fault? Perhaps. But for me, a RPG is show, not tell. Mileage may vary.


But do you think BioWare pits themself in a corner?  Or you?

Because while I agree about your show vs. tell aspect with the story (especially things like post-game slides, "for the next three years Hawke went and did...", etc.), isn't there another aspect to this?  What about the participation that an RPG is supposed to provide?  What about shaping the story so that at the end of the RPG session, you've either role-played it to your desired end, or you've been convinced that your role-playing brought you to this end, even if you've been corralled the whole way through?

Here's the conundrum as I see it.  BioWare overall is getting much better at showing vs. telling.  But they are starting to do more showing in their DLCs like Witch Hunt, Lair Of The Shadow Broker, and The Arrival, and then leaving the openings of the next game to do more telling.  But yet something is telling me that as a game, yes the DLCs are letting me participate in combat sequences, but as an RPG the experience isn't quite long enough to say that yes I'm convinced I've done the role-playing.  Does this make any sense?