93 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

dantares83 wrote...

maybe one day Fiona will come back looking for her long-lost child...

Who turns out to be Sandal.

[Addai]

nightscrawl wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

TheJist wrote...

If Alistar really is her child I will face palm hard this sounds like something a warcraft writer would make up.

Maybe I should read some of those, too.  I don't like a lot of the contemporary fantasy I pick up.

Christie Golden for orcs and Arthas. Richard A. Knaak if you like elves and dragons and such.

*shrug*  For some reason my brain switches off if things are too fantastical.  I prefer historical fiction.  Tolkien is a pass because he writes mythology, basically; GRRM is a pass because it's low fantasy and so character-driven, and the character-driven aspect is probably why I like Gaider's books so much, too.  I just love the characters.

[Addai]

The Angry One wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

maybe one day Fiona will come back looking for her long-lost child...

Who turns out to be Sandal.

Fiona bedded a dwarf and passed it off as Maric's?    I think that's the soap opera adaptation of The Calling.

[Saberchic]

The Angry One wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

maybe one day Fiona will come back looking for her long-lost child...

Who turns out to be Sandal.

I like how you think.... yes, Sandal is Fiona's mystery child....

[The Angry One]

Addai67 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

maybe one day Fiona will come back looking for her long-lost child...

Who turns out to be Sandal.

Fiona bedded a dwarf and passed it off as Maric's?    I think that's the soap opera adaptation of The Calling.

No no, Sandal is Maric's son.
You see, Sandal is not in fact a dwarf. He's a very short human.

[dantares83]

but there is half-dwarf right?

[bstrothe]

The Angry One wrote...

No no, Sandal is Maric's son.
You see, Sandal is not in fact a dwarf. He's a very short human.

Clearly Maric had a nasty side-effect from all those nights before battle drinking the putrid rotten fungus that dwarves call ale.

[TobiTobsen]

dantares83 wrote...

but there is half-dwarf right?

There are half-dwarves. Just no half-elves. Why? We don't know. Maybe Sten was right and the only thing the elves excel in is being poor and oppressed, even on the gentic level.

[Deztyn]

Addai67 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

It's Alistair. He wasn't directly talking about Rowan, he was talking about Eamon. The exact quote escapes me, but I know it's when you tick him off at Eamon's Estate. (Something about being the brother of the woman his father cheated on.) I'd double check because I have multiple saves there but alas the website hates us all.

Right, ok, I know the quote you're talking about.  I think it's in this video (I don't have audio at work so am going from memory.)  That has nothing to do with timeline.  He never says that Rowan was alive at the time, just that Eamon was her brother, which he still was even after she died.  (edit: I guess that you are referring to the fact that he says Maric cheated on Rowan- see below- if he is early 20's then he cannot be speaking about cheating on her while she was alive)

I know David wrote the books, but most people who play Origins haven't read them and never will. The game is the primary source, the books were written to support it. If nothing had been said about Alistair's mother, if it had been left vague or it was made clear that there were things being kept from us in the game that would be fine with me. But accepting Fiona as Alistair's mother requires ignoring what the game tells us and inventing a whole new story to make it fit.

The only thing you have to ignore is an offhand comment by a man who was no witness to Alistair's birth and whom Maric kept out of his son's life.  Loghain doesn't know Alistair.  Maric tried to conceal Fiona's child from him.  As I said, it's impossible to take Loghain's comment at face value because Alistair isn't old enough to have been born during Rowan's lifetime anyway.  So there's no conflict one way or another by accepting that Alistair is Fiona's son.

You're assuming that Alistair is Fiona's son and using that as evidence that he's Fiona's son? 

Doesn't matter. Even if it is what the writers intended. My point is that Origins is internally consistent. Alistair's age is never given in the game. Loghain's comments, Alistair's comments, the codex, Goldanna-- they all work as is until you try to make Alistair Fiona's son and factor in out of universe sources. And my biggest issue is still that you have to read a book to get the 'real' story, because apparently nothing in the game related to Alistair's mother is true.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[mopotter]

Addai67 wrote...

mopotter wrote...
My personal feeling is that Alistair is not Fiona's child. I don't have a big problem seeing Meric have a fling with a maid. Rowan love Loghain. She was fond of Meric but I can easily see their relationship slowly going platonic once they have Alistair, especially when she started getting ill, I am sure Meric was very discreet, one reason the maid was from Redcliffe

I think you mean Cailan, but it still seems really out of character.  If he had a platonic relationship to Rowan, why would he be so crushed by her death that he goes into seclusion for a lengthy period?  I guess guilt over an affair could have contributed to that, but it still leaves the timeline wrong.  A baby born during Rowan's lifetime would be older than Alistair.

Yes, <sigh>  I did mean Cailan.  Thanks.

eidt-took the rest out because I messed up quotes and can't concentrate to write anything else right now.  

Modifié par mopotter, 13 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[mopotter]

Addai67 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

MCPOWill wrote...

Except we know that Alistair's mom was a servant girl that was also Maric's mistress for a bit.

No, we don't "know" that.  Since this was also the story that Fiona wanted her son to be told (i.e. that his mother was a human and dead)...

I haven't looked into it, but if he did make that comment about the ages not matching up, then what we "know" is that Gaider has made it clear that she is not Alistair's mother.  Whether or not this matchs in game lore is irrelevant.

He didn't.  He only confirmed that he's never said definitively one way or another.

Right.  Sometimes I think he likes to see everyone guessing and supporting those guesses.  I also sometimes wonder if he will ever tell us.  

[Addai]

Deztyn wrote...
You're assuming that Alistair is Fiona's son and using that as evidence that he's Fiona's son? 

Doesn't matter. Even if it is what the writers intended. My point is that Origins is internally consistent. Alistair's age is never given in the game. Loghain's comments, Alistair's comments, the codex, Goldanna-- they all work as is until you try to make Alistair Fiona's son and factor in out of universe sources. And my biggest issue is still that you have to read a book to get the 'real' story, because apparently nothing in the game related to Alistair's mother is true.

I don't subscribe to this artificial restriction that you seem to find important, so this is going to be a frustrating discussion.  For me, the lore is bigger than the game.

Alistair also says that his father died before he was born.  That can't be true.  Characters are speaking from their limited points of view, sometimes they're lying, sometimes they're mistaken.  The bit about Maric hiding Fiona's child from Loghain- that's to show that Loghain's dialogue in the game isn't inconsistent because he didn't know when the child was born.  Regardless, it's also proof that he was not privy to everything about the king's private life.  But, as I said, we're obviously running on two different sets of rules.  No, the game doesn't talk about Fiona either directly or indirectly, and it barely talks about Maric.  So what?  It doesn't prevent anyone from playing, but the game novels and dev posts on the forum are color commentary that fill in the story.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 avril 2011 - 08:21 .

[Maria Caliban]

MCPOWill wrote...

Who is Fiona?

She did that Shadowboxer song and the video where she looked like she'd just taken part in some 1970's orgy.

[Torax]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MCPOWill wrote...

Who is Fiona?

She did that Shadowboxer song and the video where she looked like she'd just taken part in some 1970's orgy.

lol snap

[Deztyn]

Addai67 wrote...
 It doesn't prevent anyone from playing, but the game novels and dev posts on the forum are color commentary that fill in the story.

Filling in the story is fine with me, it's what the novels should do. Rendering parts of the story meaningless is where I take issue.
 
Edit: I honestly can't see why it's difficult to understand that I don't like the idea that a book can come out and say, "Nope, that's wrong. That didn't happen. Oh, you're going to have to explain that part of the game away yourself, because I wrote this here instead." I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take at all.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[Addai]

Deztyn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 It doesn't prevent anyone from playing, but the game novels and dev posts on the forum are color commentary that fill in the story.

Filling in the story is fine with me, it's what the novels should do. Rendering parts of the story meaningless is where I take issue.
 
Edit: I honestly can't see why it's difficult to understand that I don't like the idea that a book can come out and say, "Nope, that's wrong. That didn't happen. Oh, you're going to have to explain that part of the game away yourself, because I wrote this here instead." I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take at all.

But it doesn't!  This is why so many of us got to the end of The Calling and recognized immediately that Alistair was the baby... assuming that's true.  There are big neon signs flashing FIONASPAWN everywhere.  Loghain's is the only dialogue in the game that doesn't fit well, and there are good explanations to reconcile it.

Alistair thinks his mother was a human who died- Fiona told Maric to tell their son that his mother was a human who died.  Alistair was raised by Eamon, Maric's BIL- Maric told Fiona he would raise the boy near the court but try to keep him free of his legacy.  Duncan recruited Alistair out of a life he hated- young Duncan told Maric and Fiona that he would keep an eye on their son.  And so on.

Originally Alistair was supposed to be older, around 30 (my theory is that he was originally meant to be Katriel's son).  Some of the game dialogue may have been left over from this earlier conception of him as a more seasoned guy.  That was changed not by the novels, but because the concept wasn't working well in the game.  It still all works.  No offense but it just sounds like you're being narrow about certain phrases in the dialogue.

[Torax]

Addai67 wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 It doesn't prevent anyone from playing, but the game novels and dev posts on the forum are color commentary that fill in the story.

Filling in the story is fine with me, it's what the novels should do. Rendering parts of the story meaningless is where I take issue.
 
Edit: I honestly can't see why it's difficult to understand that I don't like the idea that a book can come out and say, "Nope, that's wrong. That didn't happen. Oh, you're going to have to explain that part of the game away yourself, because I wrote this here instead." I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take at all.

But it doesn't!  This is why so many of us got to the end of The Calling and recognized immediately that Alistair was the baby... assuming that's true.  There are big neon signs flashing FIONASPAWN everywhere.  Loghain's is the only dialogue in the game that doesn't fit well, and there are good explanations to reconcile it.

Alistair thinks his mother was a human who died- Fiona told Maric to tell their son that his mother was a human who died.  Alistair was raised by Eamon, Maric's BIL- Maric told Fiona he would raise the boy near the court but try to keep him free of his legacy.  Duncan recruited Alistair out of a life he hated- young Duncan told Maric and Fiona that he would keep an eye on their son.  And so on.

Originally Alistair was supposed to be older, around 30 (my theory is that he was originally meant to be Katriel's son).  Some of the game dialogue may have been left over from this earlier conception of him as a more seasoned guy.  That was changed not by the novels, but because the concept wasn't working well in the game.  It still all works.  No offense but it just sounds like you're being narrow about certain phrases in the dialogue.

That or you are narrow to think it is only one true answer and that is Alistair. Since Gaider hasn't said either way. Then you can also not claim it with complete certainty. Something you may want to ponder for a bit.

[Addai]

Torax wrote...
That or you are narrow to think it is only one true answer and that is Alistair. Since Gaider hasn't said either way. Then you can also not claim it with complete certainty. Something you may want to ponder for a bit.

Right... I've said numerous times in this very thread, it could well be that Fiona is not Alistair's mother.  However I'm not claiming that this or that phrase in the game is definitive.  That's the difference.

[Torax]

Addai67 wrote...

Torax wrote...
That or you are narrow to think it is only one true answer and that is Alistair. Since Gaider hasn't said either way. Then you can also not claim it with complete certainty. Something you may want to ponder for a bit.

Right... I've said numerous times in this very thread, it could well be that Fiona is not Alistair's mother.  However I'm not claiming that this or that phrase in the game is definitive.  That's the difference.

Just keep in mind your wording. Some of your statements in regards to the Calling speak as if absolutes which to someone who hasn't the read the books and takes Origins as the story it tells? Would not agree. You can speak the side of the book just watch in how it tones towards the other media. The book never states openly. But the game has Alistair definitely believing that his mother was the maid. I also do not recall any sort of necklace being part of the "Give this to my child" bits. Especially an Andraste pendant from an Elven Mage. Just somethings to consider.

[Deztyn]

Addai67 wrote...

However I'm not claiming that this or that phrase in the game is definitive.  That's the difference.

Uh. Neither have I. What I've said was the game is mostly internally consistent (I don't remember Alistair saying Maric died when he was a baby, but I'll take your word on it). Adding the information from the books makes it less consistent-- more things have to be ignored (Alistair and Loghains comments) or explained away (Alistair's information was wrong and led him to a con artist who knew the secret and was able to adapt on the fly to make herself some money, instead of just being an angry mistreated half-sister. Oh and doesn't it make his entire personal quest ultimately meaningless? Pfft. Who cares?).

And that I don't like the books overriding parts of the game.

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[mopotter]

Torax wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Torax wrote...
That or you are narrow to think it is only one true answer and that is Alistair. Since Gaider hasn't said either way. Then you can also not claim it with complete certainty. Something you may want to ponder for a bit.

Right... I've said numerous times in this very thread, it could well be that Fiona is not Alistair's mother.  However I'm not claiming that this or that phrase in the game is definitive.  That's the difference.

Just keep in mind your wording. Some of your statements in regards to the Calling speak as if absolutes which to someone who hasn't the read the books and takes Origins as the story it tells? Would not agree. You can speak the side of the book just watch in how it tones towards the other media. The book never states openly. But the game has Alistair definitely believing that his mother was the maid. I also do not recall any sort of necklace being part of the "Give this to my child" bits. Especially an Andraste pendant from an Elven Mage. Just somethings to consider.

Also, some of us who have read the books. and enjoyed them, do not think Alistair is Fiona's son.  

[Addai]

Deztyn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

However I'm not claiming that this or that phrase in the game is definitive.  That's the difference.

Uh. Neither have I. What I've said was the game is mostly internally consistent (I don't remember Alistair saying Maric died when he was a baby, but I'll take your word on it). Adding the information from the books makes it less consistent-- more things have to be ignored (Alistair and Loghains comments) or explained away (Alistair's information was wrong and led him to a con artist who knew the secret and was able to adapt on the fly to make herself some money, instead of just being an angry mistreated half-sister. Oh and doesn't it make his entire personal quest ultimately meaningless? Pfft. Who cares?).

And that I don't like the books overriding parts of the game.

I guess I'm confused what your issue is.  Alistair never knew his mother.  All he knows is what he's been told about her.  Maric wasn't confiding in Loghain around this time.  All the characters have limited perspective, and can only speak from that perspective- they're not speaking the Word of God.  There's no codex that says Alistair was born during Rowan's lifetime, so there's no contradiction with the novels.  I can understand if people would interpret the game dialogue to mean that Rowan was alive, but... they're wrong.  I don't think the game has to answer every question or leave nothing unexplained, if it's not pertinent to the game.  That's what we're doing on here. 

And no, it certainly doesn't make his personal quest meaningless, because it means something to Alistair.  In the end it could mean that he feels massively betrayed by his natural parents and Eamon, but we shall see!

[Addai]

Torax wrote...
Just keep in mind your wording. Some of your statements in regards to the Calling speak as if absolutes which to someone who hasn't the read the books and takes Origins as the story it tells? Would not agree. You can speak the side of the book just watch in how it tones towards the other media. The book never states openly. But the game has Alistair definitely believing that his mother was the maid. I also do not recall any sort of necklace being part of the "Give this to my child" bits. Especially an Andraste pendant from an Elven Mage. Just somethings to consider.

Which is why I've said a gazillion times, and reminded others, that we still don't know and it's all conjecture?

You can be Andrastian and an elf.  See, Zevran and Fenris.  And my canon Warden!  P.S. Fiona did not seem to be very religious, but my favorite theory is that the amulet was actually Maric's.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 avril 2011 - 10:56 .

[Cavegeta]

Personally, I can see Fiona's baby being/not being Alistair as a recipe for a good story. The Calling kinda left it up for the imagination, much like TST did with Maric's "deal" with Flemeth. I hope the details on both get filled in soon.

Having said that, I find this post to be interesting due to what some perceive as "canon" and some do not, especially regarding differences between the games and the novels. David Gaider has repeatedly said that the codexes are based off of whatever writer wrote them and are therefore speculative based off that writers perspective. In that case, a specific codex writer could be considered unreliable. The same can be said of in game content whereby a character says something that that he/she believes to be gospel, but is in fact only the "story" they've heard.

As to the novels, I think that they specifically establish a canon that forms the backstory the writers want to tell. I think that by admitting timeline discrepancies between the two novels and then acknowledging that they have sort of confirmed this. Dragon Age is not Star Wars, where Lucas has stated that if it didn't happen in Episodes I-VI and Force Unleashed, then it didn't officially happen. They can make for a canon story in a novel whenever they want.

Anyway, great discussion.