83 réponses à ce sujet

[Biobetasucks]

To begin, my background with rpgs and bioware goes back to baldur's gate.  For paper and pencil, yah I'm an oldtime DND players since basic and AD&D 1st.  Not that makes me an expert on RPGs just an long time perspective.

First my experience with DA: O.  I really enjoyed DA:O. 
From the first time I played a beta during a convention where the focus was on, hey for the first quarter of the game you are playing your character's past. 

I thought "Wow great story/immersion."  I played all the various origins stories just to get the nuances.  And then running into the various characters or situations where you weren't from that background (like not being a city dwarf and visiting the Carta hideout jail and seeing your buddy and your alternate self) and seeing the results...it really got my attention.  I've finished the game with all class/race and even spec combos I liked it that much.  Well that and seeing how many romances you could get. 

I didn't get the same feeling with DA2.

I mean yes, great graphics, soundtrack, decent combat environment, and even voice actors (and a pretty good acting job as usual) I recognize, that's a given.  I expect a high caliber framework from Bioware. 

But story? 

I guess if I were to sum it up I would say in DA: O I felt like I was in a role-playing game.  I realize it's all an illusion, because of the single-overarching story line but I still felt the individual decisions I made make a difference (especially at the various endings.)  Even if the same battlefields/terrain were used over and over, the story kept it fresh. When a companion fell in battle, it actually bothered me a little because the story pulled me in.  And oh boy when Duncan fell at Ostagar that was really compelling and a dramatic moment. 

DA2 I felt like I was playing a role-acting game. 
Here's your block of stats...and nothing you decide will ultimately affect the final unresolved outcome.  And for some reason, I kept getting the 'oh it's the same warehouse again' feeling because the story didn't pull me in.  When a companion fell in combat, I shrugged and said 'here's a pot, go back in.'  And I did not understand the underlying theme of 'everybody's life will suck, no matter what you do.' I mean if I want that for entertainment, I'll turn on the news, that's free.  The only bright spots in the game were when some DA:O favorites showed up...they seemed to have more depth even though they had short scenes.  But that's probably because of how I felt they were more fleshed out in DA:O. 

I almost get the feeling that Bioware wanted more...and someone stepped in and halted their story halfway, removed branching storylines and then added "get it out the door, whatever isn't done will be in DA3."

When I finished DA:O I immediately played it again.  I ended up buying almost all of the bonus content (with the collector's edition and then some.) just because I liked the world they had created so much. 

When I finished DA2, I immediately unistalled it. 

On a side note...I'm thinking the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion are going to return in DA3, with Flemeth because she needs them to deal with the real threat...

The sad thing is I actually care more to see my character from DA:O in DA3 then the Champion.  And my experience with this means I probably won't pre-buy DA3 like I did DA:O and DA2. 

Thoughts?

[frustratemyself]

They are different kinds of stories being told.

In DAO you were the warden who stopped the blight and this is how s/he did it. You only got the basic background and you built your character and story from there. You had a set overall story to follow but it was still fairly open (to a point) in how it would play out.

In DA2 your story is not as open as the wardens as Hawke is essentially a catalyst to events that lead to Thedas as it is at the opening point of the game. In the opening scenes with Varric & Cassandra it is clear that there is a specific story and sequence of events that have happened that Hawke was at the centre of.
You didn't get as much freedom in that story but still got to choose the overall tone of it.

I thought it was a bit like Shepard in Mass Effect. You had a set character, story and overall goal but got to fill in your own mental details and set the tone of how you played it.
I personally loved.

[noxsachi]

I feel pretty much the complete opposite of you op. I love my Hawke way, way more than the Warden or Sheppard and would hate if she wasn't brought back. I do feel that DAII was more of an origin story, and that in some ways the ending was unsatisfying, if only because it has me wanting /more/. The story in DAII was much better than Origins as well.

Loghain was the one and only part of DAO that was interesting to me, the entire archdaemon and blight part was so perfuntory and boring to me that there was no appeal to continuing after his death. I do wish there was even more intrigue in DAII, but its that human component of the story that is interesting, not the whole heroic deeds type thing.

I will say though that I am a huge fan of Visual novels and their ilk, and this does make accept and love that kind of story more than something like Oblivion (which I hate.)

[In Exile]

I like your comment of role-acting, but that's what I felt RPGs were always like. You had your predefined background to start (in DA:O you were a Warden + something) and then you had your goal, and your predefined knowledge & experiences around that goal... but otherwise it was the same thing.

Like with Duncan - I suppose that was compelling because the lying kidnapper got what he deserved, but it wasn't any more or less satisfying that seeing Bartrand give his dessert with the idol.

[KingNothing125]

Gamewise, I am annoyed by all the repetitive environments. I get it that the game takes place in and around Kirkwall, but using the exact same cave system over and over was very tiresome.

Storywise, I am annoyed by how little you can interact with your party members. In DA:O you could chat up your friends in camp about a litany of subjects... whereas in DA2, the only time you could talk to your friends is when the game told you to.

And they made it very difficult to sympathize with the mages. I fought against the templars for Bethany's sake, but I really didn't want to. Then Orsino went blood mage and now I feel like a massive tool for defending him. What exactly is our motivation for defending mages supposed to be?

[XX55XX]

Don't get me wrong, but even though I liked DA2, it didn't leave me with a very strong impression after I finished the game. When I finished DAO, I immediately went back to play some of the origin stories that I hadn't played yet.

Therein lies the problem with DA2: The writing was strong, and at times, achieves a level of elegance that DAO never quite did, but at the same time, it lacked an overarching narrative to tie itself together. Combine that with all the filler content BioWare included to make the game longer than it actually was, and we have a game that pales in comparison with its predecessor.

Additionally, the lack of choice really bothered me, especially given that Origins excelled in giving the player options and seeing how the consequences unfolded later.

I enjoyed my playthrough of DA2, but I just wasn't wowed by the experience. It was like watching the 9:00PM news. Sure it can be mildly interesting at times, but it's a somewhat dry experience overall.

DA2 clearly needed more development time.

[brightblueink]

I agree that DA2 needed more development time, but I ended up being pretty satisfied with DA2 in the end. While I was attached to my Warden and felt like I'd guided her to the end, I still didn't see her like a living character, more of a puppet with me pulling the strings. I got *really* attached to my Hawke and her personal story--I felt like I got a better sense of how Hawke had grown and changed as a person than the Warden, and while I'm not entirely sure what my Warden would be off doing if she had a choice, I have a pretty good idea of where my Hawke would like to be now. (Whether she actually got to do that is hard to say since she's "disappeared", but I'm really curious about that part.)

Plus, when I finished Origins I felt a little relieved, and ready to move on to another game. When I finished DA2 I immediately wanted to jump into another playthrough. I think that's a pretty good sign that I enjoyed the game immensely, flaws and all.

[highcastle]

I'm also a longtime RPG fan going back to Baldur's Gate. I still play PnP games, but I recognize the differences between cRPGs and their original source material. The mediums are different, they have different strengths, and you can't expect exactly the same experience from both. A cRPG's strengths lie in the visuals and the audio. You can see the world coming to life around you, hear the sounds of the city and the voices of the characters. You sacrifice some of your own imaginative input, but the result is something more cinematic and in some ways more immersive (if you go into it with the right mindset).

While I really enjoyed Origins, for me DA2 blew it out of the water. I know why many people were turned off by it. The story is not the traditional save-the-world fare we've come to expect. But you know what? I like that. I like experiencing something different now and then. If you've played PnP RPGs, then I'm sure at some point you've played a game where things don't go your way, where you've lost. DA2 has a strong theme of loss throughout the game, especially where it concerns your family. The endgame is also likely to be bittersweet as there's literally no way to keep your entire party intact (at least if we include the DLC character). I don't think many people are used to not being able to "win" in the traditional sense. But this sense of loss and regret made a big impact on me.

I went through my first run in a romance with Anders. I never saw his betrayal coming, and I have to say it hit like a punch to the gut. That's strong writing that can produce such an emotional reaction. I was also very uncertain of my actions at that point. I didn't feel like there was a clear-cut "right" path, and that made the game more realistic and emotionally engaging to me. Origins suffered from too many "third options" where you could keep everyone alive and always come out on top. Sometimes in life, you can't take a third option. Sometimes the best you can do is save as many people as you can and mourn those you lose later. For that reason, DA2 struck a chord with me.

I also have to say I was more attached to Hawke than I was to the Warden. We see more of Hawke's personal and family life. Most of the quests are tied into his personal life or the lives of his close friends and companions. And more of his companions take an interest in his life than in Origins. Aveline, Isabela, Varric, Merrill, Sebastian, Leandra, Gamlen, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting all had things to say about Hawke's LI or his mother's death or his sibling's fate. I felt like these people cared about Hawke, and it made me care about him, too. The VA also really surprised me in that I felt it made Hawke more emotive and thus I connected more to him. By the end of the game, I was invested in his story. I wanted to know what happened next. With the Warden, there was a sense of finality to everything. There were a few dangling threads, but most everything got a nice bow on it and that's fine. With Hawke, though, I feel like he's itching to make a comeback, to make things right.

In short, the end of the game left me salivating for more. It left me wondering what happens next, debating the actions of various characters, and wondering what I could have done differently. I found it engaging and emotional and a big improvement on Origins because it focused on the personal. For me, the characters are the most interesting part of any story in any medium. And this really felt like it was about the characters, like they mattered more than anything else. It wasn't a story about saving the world, it was a story about the rise and fall of a man you get to know quite intimately. Every quest felt personal (with the exception of the deliveries, I suppose), and I felt I had a strong grasp on Hawke's character and life.

[Merced652]

[TL;DR]Apathetic as hell. In every previous bioware rpg i felt like whew that was awesome or something similar. In this game i literally just took off my headset, sighed, and went to bed. I wasn't excited for future content like i was with origins. Looking back at expansion packs like ToB i was pumped up for a origins expansion. But laidlaw had already gotten his hands on things by that point. [/TL;DR]

I was surprised at no epilogue slides, angered even. It just solidified in me that nothing i did mattered. What choices i did make i rarely if ever saw the consequences of, and they couldn't even be bothered to tell me. I hardly expect them to "show" me in DLC with as bad as this game turned out. Not that i would ever buy it at this point.

I disliked my own character. How does that happen? Oh wait.. its because hes not mine. I could not get immersed at all, and i was constantly assaulted with lines i never chose to say. Be it cutscenes, dialogue options that were apparently intersected by npc lines..

I finished the game because i suppose i was hoping for something to redeem it knowing full well the reviewers had commented on how bad the ending was. So obviously that never materialized. Ultimately what i felt like at the end was that nothing i did mattered, literally nothing. The fact that i sided with the mages and was called a hero by some chantry rat was just icing.

[wowpwnslol]

It didn't feel epic or complete. I felt like being set up for half a dozen future DLC's to tie up the loose ends.

[langelog]

I felt disappoint...

[wowpwnslol]

langelog wrote...

I felt disappoint...

Did you feel disappointed when you flunked English as well?

Modifié par wowpwnslol, 12 avril 2011 - 02:01 .

[Barefoot Warrior]

I was shocked and mad as hell! As I said in another post, this beat that ridiculous ending of that forgettable Fable 2 (and 3, yes I learned my lesson)where Theresa says 'be gone'...what! Instead I get this ride off into the sunset thing with no answers. I had a hard time playing this right from the start, and I kept saying that this has to get better. Long story short, I felt that none of my choices / decisions made no difference, it all came down to that end. I've heard the term 'rail roaded' and that pretty much covers it. It has been said many times, I could not connect to my character or the others. I had no sense of accomplishment and felt that I just wasted a whole lot of my time, and money for what? Further, at the end of DA:O (and some other games), there was a bit of a happy ending, you felt good for your hero, and you as the player felt good. Why? you and your companions beat the odds and won despite all the hardships. Not here, I think I felt a bit depressed actually. At least if all of Hawkes family survived, that would have been something. Being an older player, I like to feel good after a good game, and DA2 sure didn't do that, not for me anyway. Yes, I know that DA2 was a different story and not suppose to be another DA:O, and I knew this, nor did I have a problem with that, but nothing could have prepared me for this. Change is a good thing, it is how that change is implemented that counts and it didn't happen here, even though it had some good potential.

[Rabies]

I think that it's wrong to compare DAO with DAII for a few reasons. The first is that DAO was focused upon a grander more overarching story that encompassed many great events over a short period of time. These events thus didn't give us as great a level of emotional investment and detail, but they still offered us the feeling that the story was aiming for - that of an epic.

The story of the Warden is just that - EPIC. However, you don't feel a real great personal connection to the Warden. He's a silent character. You have to use your imagination to fill in his voice, and then a lot of your conversation choices invariably lead to the same conclusions without much reaction. The Warden is offered this great evil that he must face, that of the Blight, and becomes a stereotypical epic hero.

This is not so with our dear Hawke. There is more controversy surrounding his story. The story also isn't as epic, despite supposedly taking place over 10 years time, but we see a lot more emotional investment. We are forced to CHOOSE between templar and mage. I've never taken so much time in a game deciding on my choices before, and a lot of the time I would look back and say -- "Well CRAP! I didn't expect this!"

I didn't have that feeling at all with Origins. Also, events with Hawke I feel aren't anywhere near over. The Seekers are looking for him. The Chantry wants to try and avert this war between the templars and mages (both factions having rebelled), and my illegal apostate is off somewhere in the world presumably sailing with Isabella.

[srieser]

brightblueink wrote...

I agree that DA2 needed more development time, but I ended up being pretty satisfied with DA2 in the end. While I was attached to my Warden and felt like I'd guided her to the end, I still didn't see her like a living character, more of a puppet with me pulling the strings. I got *really* attached to my Hawke and her personal story--I felt like I got a better sense of how Hawke had grown and changed as a person than the Warden, and while I'm not entirely sure what my Warden would be off doing if she had a choice, I have a pretty good idea of where my Hawke would like to be now. (Whether she actually got to do that is hard to say since she's "disappeared", but I'm really curious about that part.)

Plus, when I finished Origins I felt a little relieved, and ready to move on to another game. When I finished DA2 I immediately wanted to jump into another playthrough. I think that's a pretty good sign that I enjoyed the game immensely, flaws and all.

This sums up my experience as well. I'll add that somewhere I ended up with a really clear character study of my Hawke. I knew his hopes, fears and what made him tick. Most of that was my own creation and crafted him through the dialog wheel. The companions, I felt, I knew like friends. I had  a pretty good idea what to expect but they could still shock and surprise you.  

Origins, I had no real grasp on my character. He ended up being generic/boy scout hero. Origin companions I ended up knowing too well, like novel characters rather than friends. Everything was written on their sleave.  Nothing they did really shocked me or surprised me.

[Torax]

srieser wrote...

brightblueink wrote...

I agree that DA2 needed more development time, but I ended up being pretty satisfied with DA2 in the end. While I was attached to my Warden and felt like I'd guided her to the end, I still didn't see her like a living character, more of a puppet with me pulling the strings. I got *really* attached to my Hawke and her personal story--I felt like I got a better sense of how Hawke had grown and changed as a person than the Warden, and while I'm not entirely sure what my Warden would be off doing if she had a choice, I have a pretty good idea of where my Hawke would like to be now. (Whether she actually got to do that is hard to say since she's "disappeared", but I'm really curious about that part.)

Plus, when I finished Origins I felt a little relieved, and ready to move on to another game. When I finished DA2 I immediately wanted to jump into another playthrough. I think that's a pretty good sign that I enjoyed the game immensely, flaws and all.

This sums up my experience as well. I'll add that somewhere I ended up with a really clear character study of my Hawke. I knew his hopes, fears and what made him tick. Most of that was my own creation and crafted him through the dialog wheel. The companions, I felt, I knew like friends. I had  a pretty good idea what to expect but they could still shock and surprise you.  

Origins, I had no real grasp on my character. He ended up being generic/boy scout hero. Origin companions I ended up knowing too well, like novel characters rather than friends. Everything was written on their sleave.  Nothing they did really shocked me or surprised me.

I don't know about that part. There is this one really umm scary exchange between Sten & Shale.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

I was very positive about DA2 when I finished. The game kept me hooked and playing as often as I had the time until I finished it. I had some complaints here and there, but nothing that really dampened the enjoyment of the game much.

Then I went back and started a new game in Origins and I remembered how much I loved Origins and DA2 looks paler in comparison. Origins wasn't as addictive as DA2 because it was so involved that I found myself really taking my time, but the story was so much deeper and the world more developed.

I can't say that my enjoyment of DA2 was really spoiled, but I find myself really hoping for something more on par with Origins if/when they make DA3. I think that DA2 isn't necessarily an inferior game to Origins (or, at least, not greatly inferior), but certainly a different type of game. I'll still play through DA2 multiple times, but DA2 doesn't elicit the same attachment that DA:O does.

[Legbiter]

Pretty good on the second playthrough. Those mages got their just deserts.

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

I thought the ending was a bit unsettling. It felt concluded in the sort of way that dropping the atomic bombs concluded WW2.

I thought it felt concluded in the sort of way that the movie Peal Harbor concluded all its various characters' stories.

Or concluded in the sort of way that destroying the Death Star concluded Star Wars.

But, toward the OP, I felt excited to play it again. If only I had known then what I know now*.




*Rogues don't do it from behind because they're sexy. They do it from behind because they can't keep up.

[sphinxess]

First thing I thought was why the h*** do they make games where you have to fight multiple end game bosses - just leave it at one.

[KingNothing125]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
*Rogues don't do it from behind because they're sexy. They do it from behind because they can't keep up.

Really? Isabela was always far and away the highest DPS in my groups.

[UltraBoy360]

highcastle wrote...

I'm also a longtime RPG fan going back to Baldur's Gate. I still play PnP games, but I recognize the differences between cRPGs and their original source material. The mediums are different, they have different strengths, and you can't expect exactly the same experience from both. A cRPG's strengths lie in the visuals and the audio. You can see the world coming to life around you, hear the sounds of the city and the voices of the characters. You sacrifice some of your own imaginative input, but the result is something more cinematic and in some ways more immersive (if you go into it with the right mindset).

While I really enjoyed Origins, for me DA2 blew it out of the water. I know why many people were turned off by it. The story is not the traditional save-the-world fare we've come to expect. But you know what? I like that. I like experiencing something different now and then. If you've played PnP RPGs, then I'm sure at some point you've played a game where things don't go your way, where you've lost. DA2 has a strong theme of loss throughout the game, especially where it concerns your family. The endgame is also likely to be bittersweet as there's literally no way to keep your entire party intact (at least if we include the DLC character). I don't think many people are used to not being able to "win" in the traditional sense. But this sense of loss and regret made a big impact on me.

I went through my first run in a romance with Anders. I never saw his betrayal coming, and I have to say it hit like a punch to the gut. That's strong writing that can produce such an emotional reaction. I was also very uncertain of my actions at that point. I didn't feel like there was a clear-cut "right" path, and that made the game more realistic and emotionally engaging to me. Origins suffered from too many "third options" where you could keep everyone alive and always come out on top. Sometimes in life, you can't take a third option. Sometimes the best you can do is save as many people as you can and mourn those you lose later. For that reason, DA2 struck a chord with me.

I also have to say I was more attached to Hawke than I was to the Warden. We see more of Hawke's personal and family life. Most of the quests are tied into his personal life or the lives of his close friends and companions. And more of his companions take an interest in his life than in Origins. Aveline, Isabela, Varric, Merrill, Sebastian, Leandra, Gamlen, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting all had things to say about Hawke's LI or his mother's death or his sibling's fate. I felt like these people cared about Hawke, and it made me care about him, too. The VA also really surprised me in that I felt it made Hawke more emotive and thus I connected more to him. By the end of the game, I was invested in his story. I wanted to know what happened next. With the Warden, there was a sense of finality to everything. There were a few dangling threads, but most everything got a nice bow on it and that's fine. With Hawke, though, I feel like he's itching to make a comeback, to make things right.

In short, the end of the game left me salivating for more. It left me wondering what happens next, debating the actions of various characters, and wondering what I could have done differently. I found it engaging and emotional and a big improvement on Origins because it focused on the personal. For me, the characters are the most interesting part of any story in any medium. And this really felt like it was about the characters, like they mattered more than anything else. It wasn't a story about saving the world, it was a story about the rise and fall of a man you get to know quite intimately. Every quest felt personal (with the exception of the deliveries, I suppose), and I felt I had a strong grasp on Hawke's character and life.

Highcastle, I totally agree with you. I found DA2 far more emotionally involving and personal than DAO (which I loved as well). The story evolving through the (IMO) fantastic characters was far more impactful to me. Particularly  in the superb Act 2. Skyrim could be the most technically proficient game of this generation and DA2 could have used the same areas even more and I doubt I would ever prefer the Elder Scrolls. It's all down to story and character as you said.

I really enjoyed the juxtaposition of the Act 2 and Act 3 endings. Act 2 conclusion is kinda the highpoint of the game, Hawke is Champion and hero... and then the decline begins. Like you I find myself mulling over what an epilogue would look like as Hawke and companions 'flee into the hills'. That first night... - my Hawke's choices to some degree have facilitated the destruction of the Chantry, the murder of the Grand Cleric, countless deaths and collateral damage, encited a continent wide war, possibly a Free Marches civil war between Kirkwall and Starkhaven and the death of a clan of elves and their Keeper. Plus he didn't have the guts to kill his LI Anders... This to me is way, way more fascinating that the Rise to Power that I expected. Or for me the fun but traditional hero's quest of my Hero of Fereldan.

My ending felt truly tragic - Hawke now faces the rest of his life hunted with his lover who is basically a shattered human being who become less and less Anders with ever passing day. No video game I have played has been so emotional and bittersweet. It might be less slick and polished that DAO (the bugs are a f*$*ing nightmare), but as one review said, it has more heart and soul that any other game I've enjoyed and I totally appreciate Bioware's  risk-taking on this one. It 100% paid off for he (and Highcastle!) at least.  

[NvVanity]

After completing it I felt the end of Act 3 had a powerful narrative going on that left me wanting more.

It was good but it needed to go on longer. Where is Hawke now? What of Kirkwall? How about Anders and Sebastian? One caused all of this and the other threatened to burn Kirkwall down with an army. How about the Knight-Vigilant and Divine's view on the situation? Or the Grey Wardens? What about this revolution we have going on across Thedas?