434 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
yea like i was saying the sentinel woud be the only class to see much of a change, but that would be the exact point of playing a it. it also depends on how bonus abilites andthe like are handled in ME3 as well. thers just no reason for it not to be on sepereate cooldowns. its almost too easy of a solution to a problem that some people have with the class setups. if your a person who uses their brain when playing ME and relies on lore or logic or waht have you, then this change would be great. if your a person like you who wouldnt even notice a differnece, then theres no problem at all. i dont know why this is even an argument you want to have. you seem to think its a step in the right  direction anyways.

But I wouldn't want it for just one character class.  Sure, you mentioned splitting Unity for all characters.  And perhaps bonus powers would function the same.  But I'm just not convinced that's the ideal solution.  I'm certainly willing to try out whatever they throw at us in ME3 as far as cooldowns go, but if I had to guess right now I'd say that global cooldowns will remain in effect.

If we were to gain another cooldown, I imagine it would be for Shepard's special melee attacks they've been talking about.

Modifié par lazuli, 30 avril 2011 - 06:53 .

[Praetor Knight]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you also cant really bring up something from ME1 as well as ME2 and try to convince me both scenarios work hand in hand.

I'm missing something, and so far I haven't found it on the wiki. So I can't defend this position right now


And convince you?

I doubt I have any skill or desire to do so.

i remember armor mods like med exos that improve cooldowns and what not. sometimes i get tired of convincing people that i actually understand how ME works. but the dude was talking about a battery in my armor that gauges my ability usage........

But, didn't biotics get kinetic barrier/ shield boosts, like from Electronics? Darn I gotta get back to my ME1 Sentinel.

also, i dont think you can consider inferno or dragon armor to be reasonable variables because they arent in the majority of ME2 players games.

OK, so yeah, then stricken? Not to be in ME3




Seriously though, these discussions are thought provoking, and I hope that we haven't gotten too off-topic.

Edit: and I don't mind being wrong.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 30 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

thers just no reason for it not to be on sepereate cooldowns. its almost too easy of a solution to a problem that some people have with the class setups. if your a person who uses their brain when playing ME and relies on lore or logic or waht have you, then this change would be great. if your a person like you who wouldnt even notice a differnece, then theres no problem at all. i dont know why this is even an argument you want to have. you seem to think its a step in the right  direction anyways.

What reason? Separate or global cooldowns make no sense whatsoever, mana/stamina pools just as bad. Omni tools, biotic amps are BS. You can either use an ability or you don't - any form of cooldown or other restrictions are ludicrous. The only reason those things exist is because of GAMEPLAY.

What's the meaning of getting mortally wounded and after a couple seconds in hiding you're as good as new? Using a medkit, potion or whatever to heal or regenerate oneself doesn't make sense either. Again, it's because of gameplay - lore and/or logic are neglectable (the whole idea that one (wo)man, on foot, is going to destroy the most dangerous and lethal enemy effa is completely unlogical btw).

Putting medkits, tech, combat and biotic powers on seperate cooldowns is disastrous imo. You either use a global system or not. Having medkits on separate cooldown allows fulltime tanking (and use of powers) which is bad imo. You either CHOSE to revive fallen squadmates / heal Shep OR you use an other ability - not both.

Funny you're mentioning using braincells - aren't you the one who still hasn't figured out how to deal with protection?

[Sparrow44]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Putting medkits, tech, combat and biotic powers on seperate cooldowns is disastrous imo. You either use a global system or not. Having medkits on separate cooldown allows fulltime tanking (and use of powers) which is bad imo. You either CHOSE to revive fallen squadmates / heal Shep OR you use an other ability - not both.

I think as far as the shield powers go the only reason why they might need a seperate cooldown was because of their 12 second cooldown which did interfere with other power casting especially if you took one as a bonus power (although if Sentinels are supposed to be tanks then it's less of an issue for them).

The solution for that would be to simply reduce the cooldown by around 3-4 seconds as you wouldn't want them around the 5-6 second mark as that would mean all classes could be effective tanks instead of using the rest of their powers, an 8-9 second base cooldown would be ideal IMO (not too high but not too low either). Of course in regards to cooldown upgrades there'd have to be a slight re-working though considering Sentinel's atm could get around 50% bonus when Adepts and Engineers could only get up to 40% max with research and passive talents and Vanguards and Infiltrators around the 35% mark, not sure if that's fair for each class but Sentinel's don't need that much do they?

And no a dual cooldown system for different sets of powers would turn the Sentinel into an overpowered class (tanking and cast two sets of powers simultaneously).

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
yea like i was saying the sentinel woud be the only class to see much of a change, but that would be the exact point of playing a it. it also depends on how bonus abilites andthe like are handled in ME3 as well. thers just no reason for it not to be on sepereate cooldowns. its almost too easy of a solution to a problem that some people have with the class setups. if your a person who uses their brain when playing ME and relies on lore or logic or waht have you, then this change would be great. if your a person like you who wouldnt even notice a differnece, then theres no problem at all. i dont know why this is even an argument you want to have. you seem to think its a step in the right  direction anyways.

But I wouldn't want it for just one character class.  Sure, you mentioned splitting Unity for all characters.  And perhaps bonus powers would function the same.  But I'm just not convinced that's the ideal solution.  I'm certainly willing to try out whatever they throw at us in ME3 as far as cooldowns go, but if I had to guess right now I'd say that global cooldowns will remain in effect.

If we were to gain another cooldown, I imagine it would be for Shepard's special melee attacks they've been talking about.

you keep saying you dont think sepereate cooldowns would function appropriately, but i dont see a reason why. what gameplay changes by speereating cooldowns? other then the sentinel playing like an actual sentinel of corse.

i pray to god they dont ONLY plan on sepereating cooldowns by classifying every ability as one, and then melee as another. i used melee exactly 20 times in ME2. my B button collects dust. although i could see melee being put on a cooldown, but an actually fatigue cooldown. but wait, if you think melee is a seperate cooldown, then why wouldnt the others be on seperate cooldowns? there isnt more of a difference in the melee concept compared to biotics as there is to biotics compared to techs. ......am i right?

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

thers
just no reason for it not to be on sepereate cooldowns. its almost too
easy of a solution to a problem that some people have with the class
setups. if your a person who uses their brain when playing ME and relies
on lore or logic or waht have you, then this change would be great. if
your a person like you who wouldnt even notice a differnece, then theres
no problem at all. i dont know why this is even an argument you want to
have. you seem to think its a step in the right  direction
anyways.

What reason? Separate or global cooldowns make
no sense whatsoever, mana/stamina pools just as bad. Omni tools, biotic
amps are BS. You can either use an ability or you don't - any form of
cooldown or other restrictions are ludicrous. The only reason those
things exist is because of GAMEPLAY.

What's the meaning of
getting mortally wounded and after a couple seconds in hiding you're as
good as new? Using a medkit, potion or whatever to heal or regenerate
oneself doesn't make sense either. Again, it's because of gameplay -
lore and/or logic are neglectable (the whole idea that one (wo)man, on
foot, is going to destroy the most dangerous and lethal enemy effa is
completely unlogical btw).

Putting medkits, tech, combat and
biotic powers on seperate cooldowns is disastrous imo. You either use a
global system or not. Having medkits on separate cooldown allows
fulltime tanking (and use of powers) which is bad imo. You either CHOSE
to revive fallen squadmates / heal Shep OR you use an other ability -
not both.

Funny you're mentioning using braincells - aren't you the one who still hasn't figured out how to deal with protection? [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]

bozo, bozo, bozo. here we go again. i see youve put alot of words there, but what changes in gameplay by having sepereate cooldowns?

omni tools and amps are just BS? throw being a biotic ability and incinerate being a tech mine, are BS??? really?!?!? is that how your going to try to win this argument.

i dont need medkits, or even think they should be in ME in the first place. i have regenerative health and sheilds that come back within seconds. i dont even think you understand what your saying. medigel on a
sepereate cooldown wouldnt allow tanking in the same way that it currently doesnt allow tanking. its still got a cooldown in
the like it was handled in ME1 or ME2. the only difference is i can
slab some medigel on my broken arm, then simply use incenerate because
incenereate has nothing to do with slabing medigel on my broken arm. doesnt that make sense? again, what gameplay changes by being able to do something like that?

the whole enemy protections thing has nothing to do with me figuring out how to get past them. id think BY NOW youd be starting to get a grasp on the fact that i understand what enemy protections are. its the reaon i hate them is because i understand them. theres a big difference between understanding somethnig and enjoying something. take a quick glance at some of AHGLOCKs comments in this topic(i think)on this subject.

Sparroww wrote...

And no a dual cooldown system for
different sets of powers would turn the Sentinel into an overpowered
class (tanking and cast two sets of powers simultaneously).

the sentinel would be the only class to see a drastic change. (in much of the same way adepts see a draastic change when you hit the higher difficulties, maybe, eh.) its a change that shouldnt be as drastic as is in game and theres ways to negate what the potential of a sentinel could be. in much the same way as your ideas about changeing cooldowns for each class on medigel. im not saying simply sepereate cooldowns and be done with it. im saying sepereate cooldowns and make sense of it.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 avril 2011 - 01:57 .

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
you keep saying you dont think sepereate cooldowns would function appropriately, but i dont see a reason why. what gameplay changes by speereating cooldowns? other then the sentinel playing like an actual sentinel of corse.

i pray to god they dont ONLY plan on sepereating cooldowns by classifying every ability as one, and then melee as another. i used melee exactly 20 times in ME2. my B button collects dust. although i could see melee being put on a cooldown, but an actually fatigue cooldown. but wait, if you think melee is a seperate cooldown, then why wouldnt the others be on seperate cooldowns? there isnt more of a difference in the melee concept compared to biotics as there is to biotics compared to techs. ......am i right?

I've been trying to break this to you gently, but it hasn't been working.  You have no idea what game balance means.  And that's fine, as you are essentially powerless to influence Mass Effect 3's development.  Just because you have a concept of what the Sentinel should be doesn't mean it's shared by the developers or other players.  In ME1 the Sentinel was similar to your concept of what it should be.  Now, though, they've changed it.  Why?  They probably wanted it to feel better and play differently than the lovechild of an Adept and Engineer.  Splitting cooldowns would break the Sentinel and divorce it from the other classes too thoroughly.

As for melee, maybe you'd enjoy ME2 more if you pushed yourself out of your comfort zone and waded into close combat, especially as the Sentinel we keep discussing.  Maybe then you'd see the reasoning behind the global cooldown system, as you attempt to juggle risk and reward with your Shepard's life on the line.

[Bozorgmehr]

Sparroww wrote...

I think as far as the shield powers go the only reason why they might need a seperate cooldown was because of their 12 second cooldown which did interfere with other power casting especially if you took one as a bonus power (although if Sentinels are supposed to be tanks then it's less of an issue for them).

The problem with armor-powers isn't the cooldown, it's their pathetic effect. Shields don't mean much as it is, making shields more important (last longer) would greatly increase the value of having a strong(er) shield.

And no a dual cooldown system for different sets of powers would turn the Sentinel into an overpowered class (tanking and cast two sets of powers simultaneously).

Indeed, Sentinels are already a little broken - giving them unlimited TA and the ability to cast (biotic) powers too isn't something I would like to see. A dual cooldown system could be used but then cooldowns (for the Sentinel) have to be doubled - which wouldn't change much. Casting Overload and Throw will block the use of other abilities as long as it does with the system currently in place. It only complicates things (having to watch two cooldowns instead of one) and only the Sentinel would benefit - a bit lame considering Sentinels are not the best biotic or tech users but they would completely outperform Adepts and Engineers with casting - not good imo.

P.S. I don't like powers on a long cooldown. I rather have Bioware reduce their effects instead so they can be used a little more frequently.

@ The Spamming Troll:

The whole combat / power system is build around gameplay - not lore or logic. You don't like protection blocking biotic powers which is also a gameplay feature and has nothing to do with lore. Different cooldown timers (regardless if a global- or universal cooldown system is used) are also gameplay related.

You like the ME1 system, I don't because ME1 isn't a shooter/rpg-power hybrid at all. It's a game cut into two parts. Part one is about to make yourself invincible and/or disable all enemies - Part two is to kill all enemies who are either helpless (can't fight back) or their attacks don't hurt you at all.

The global CD system in ME2 intergrates those two aspects much better. You have to use weapons and powers in concert and mix them up which is what the devs where looking for in the first place.

ME1: (pause) power, power, power, power - shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot (helpless/worthless enemies)

ME2: power, shoot, power, shoot, power, shoot (with a lot of dangerous enemies around)

[Clonedzero]

i prefer the short cooldowns global system of ME2. allows constant use of powers throughout fights.

in ME1 you burn through all your powers then have to wait a good while for them to pop back.

playing an adept or vanguard is so much fun in ME2 because you can constantly be throwing out pulls and shockwaves and throws and charges, ect.

with a cooldown per ability you just burn through all your abilties as fast as possible so you can use them as much as possible, but with a global system you have to pick and choose what ability you want. a big ability becomes more situational due to the longer cooldown (i could shockwave, but i think i'd rather get pull off twice) or the reverse of that situation, shockwave would be perfect for this situation im gonna use that.

just a much more fluid way to do things, and more realistic too. biotic abilities require concentration and effort, it seems a bit awkward to fully strain your character by burning through 3-5 biotic abilities in a couple seconds then waiting a minute, seems better to space them out.

[RedCaesar97]

I do not want to get back into a ME1 versus ME2 power system debate again. Both sides just end up banging their heads against a wall.

Anyway, I would like to see Mass Effect 3 keep the global cooldown system, but I would like to see a small change to how cooldowns are applied to each class. In ME2, most class passive included a cooldown bonus, anywhere from 9-30% when evolved (before tech/biotic research upgrades). However, this cooldown applied to both tech and biotic cooldowns. So if an Engineer had a -20% cooldown in the class passive, it applied to both tech and biotic abilities. I'd like to see that changed in ME3 so that tech classes gain only tech cooldown bonuses, and biotic classes gain only biotic cooldown bonuses.

So the Engineer and Infiltrator would gain only tech cooldown bonuses, and the Adept and Vanguard would gain only biotic cooldown bonuses. The Sentinel would gain gain both tech and biotic cooldown bonuses. That way, you could still put a biotic bonus ability on a tech class, or a tech ability on a biotic class, but the bonus ability would take longer to cool down than the native tech/biotic abilities. And I think the Engineer and Adept should have the shortest cooldowns for tech/biotic abilities.

[Waltzingbear]

While we're at it I'd like to also remind you how convenient it is to complain about things that you are unable to do while completely ignoring, using the same logic, what the NPCs are unable to do.

First of all let's presume that some of the biotics Shepard fights (especially asari) are much more potent than Shepard himself; why can't they use Singularity Lift or Throw in the same way?

What about that one second of damage immunity you get when your shields drop? How come a rocket that hits you doesn't kill you outright?
Why don't enemies' shields regenerate at the same rate Shepards' do?
Why don't we see enemy snipers that can one-shoot you?

I'm sure someone else would be able to add to that list.

[Omega-202]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
you do realize your completely making things up here, right? my suit contributes NOTHING to my biotics or my tech abilities. what is this talk about a suit battery??? amps only enhance the basic abilities i was BORN WITH. amps and omnitools have no relation to eachother whatsoever. omni tools are the devices creating my tech abilites, not my biotic-suit-battery or whatebver your trying to reference......

im not sure if i should continue to reply to a post as completely out of context as this one is.

Even if you don't want to concede that an amp requires power for usage (oo look magic technology that needs no power), biotics still build up huge static charges from using their powers.  THAT is well established and Kaiden even makes mention about how sometimes biotics let off a discharge when they touch something metal after using their powers.  Its the same idea behind discharging a ship's core.

Therefore, the immediate static buildup could be said to interfere with the use of the omnitool.  

Again, there are A LOT of ways to explain it logically.  You just don't like the idea because you can't be a the power slinging god you were in ME1.  

[AK404]

I'm not sure it's been mentioned, but how about the possibility of keeping the class-specific powers off the GCD, but lower the benefits they receive from the class-specific passive (by say, half)?

Thus, you wouldn't feel chained to a single active ability the way that soldiers are, you'd be able to self-combo as an adept, and it would open up interesting possibilities as a vanguard.

[lazuli]

AK404 wrote...

I'm not sure it's been mentioned, but how about the possibility of keeping the class-specific powers off the GCD, but lower the benefits they receive from the class-specific passive (by say, half)?

Thus, you wouldn't feel chained to a single active ability the way that soldiers are, you'd be able to self-combo as an adept, and it would open up interesting possibilities as a vanguard.

This would work for most classes, but what about the Soldier?  Perhaps in ME3 Soldiers will have access to something other than Concussive Shot for their active abilities.

[Aumata]

I see what Spamming Troll is getting at. If I might add a good balance to it. Hybrid classes can uses both abilities with out the global cool down. But pure classes get a shorter cooldown. damage, and duration. Makes since to me.

[Ahglock]

I'd be okay with split cooldowns if their cooldowns were longer. Like lets say you have tech/combat cooldowns vs just combat cooldowns. You both have the same combat power, but only the soldier has cooldown reductions in his passive. That way while the tech/combat guy can throw 2 powers on top of each other, but the soldier can throw another combat power before the tech/combat guy could. It might balance out.

Edit tpo add, you'd actually need to give the soldier powers with cooldowns though instead of just AR and ammo.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 30 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[TevinterMagister]

If information from the recent podcast is correct the current system will be more or less intact, what caught my attention though is that powers are subject to change. We have confirmation that Charge will be in, but that's it.

This could further differentiate hybrids from the specialists. Instead of taking half the powers of the soldier and the other half from engineer and add a unique one, they could all be unique to the class such as Infiltrator. I mean it would still be 50% tech, but those are unique to the Infiltrator rather than chosen from the pool of engineer powers.

Modifié par Maze of Torment, 30 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[termokanden]

I would find it extremely surprising if powers did NOT change across the board.

[TevinterMagister]

That much was expected as they advertised additional power evolutions, but the spesific power layout is subject to change. Such as sentinels no longer have cryo or warp and got something else, just as an example.

[termokanden]

That also doesn't surprise me. I'm also quite happy to hear it in fact, because I think it can be a bit random in ME2.

[Stardusk78]

You know guys, there could be a power evolution that allows Biotics to work through protection layers...it would have to be very advanced though...

[TevinterMagister]

Stardusk78 wrote...

You know guys, there could be a power evolution that allows Biotics to work through protection layers...it would have to be very advanced though...

Piercing Throw, bypass % of protection to allow some of the force to pass through to knock them down, but not flying. Similar mechanics to ME1 proton rounds.

[lazuli]

Stardusk78 wrote...

You know guys, there could be a power evolution that allows Biotics to work through protection layers...it would have to be very advanced though...

I don't see how any other Throw evolution would even be tempting with something like this available.  My other concern is that it could lead to a lack of clarity in game mechanics.  "Wait, does Samara's throw pierce protections, or is it Kaidan's?  My throw goes through protections, why isn't Thane's?  He must suck."  I don't know that anyone who frequents these forums is necessarily that stupid, but I still think consistency is important.

[dbndzb]

lazuli wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

You know guys, there could be a power evolution that allows Biotics to work through protection layers...it would have to be very advanced though...

I don't see how any other Throw evolution would even be tempting with something like this available.  My other concern is that it could lead to a lack of clarity in game mechanics.  "Wait, does Samara's throw pierce protections, or is it Kaidan's?  My throw goes through protections, why isn't Thane's?  He must suck."  I don't know that anyone who frequents these forums is necessarily that stupid, but I still think consistency is important.

I think this is a fine idea, so long as it's mediated as above (Maze of Torment) only allowing a certain amount of force to pass protection. Shep's supposed to be more powerful than his squadmates anyway. Or maybe this evolution is only available to adepts; I think adepts should see more differentiation from vanguards and sentinels, maybe having separate evolutions for each class would be a possibility.

Modifié par dbndzb, 01 mai 2011 - 02:52 .

[Stardusk78]

dbndzb wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

You know guys, there could be a power evolution that allows Biotics to work through protection layers...it would have to be very advanced though...

I don't see how any other Throw evolution would even be tempting with something like this available.  My other concern is that it could lead to a lack of clarity in game mechanics.  "Wait, does Samara's throw pierce protections, or is it Kaidan's?  My throw goes through protections, why isn't Thane's?  He must suck."  I don't know that anyone who frequents these forums is necessarily that stupid, but I still think consistency is important.

I think this is a fine idea, so long as it's mediated as above (Maze of Torment) only allowing a certain amount of force to pass protection. Shep's supposed to be more powerful than his squadmates anyway. Or maybe this evolution is only available to adepts; I think adepts should see more differentiation from vanguards and sentinels, maybe having separate evolutions for each class would be a possibility.

I did only mean it for Adepts, so yes.

[Ahglock]

Stardusk78 wrote...

You know guys, there could be a power evolution that allows Biotics to work through protection layers...it would have to be very advanced though...

I would not be surprised if that whole system is looked at.  While people learned how to deal with it effectively, the number of people who complained and continue to complain about Adepts being gimped is frakin huge.  With the interview where they said they really pay attention to the fan feedback, that very well may be one of the loudest fan feedbacks for ME2.  

As for an evolution to handle it, that might happen as their patch to deal with the complaints.  I am not sure how advanced it would have to be though especially since it really only effects 2 difficulty levels.