434 réponses à ce sujet

[Grimjesse127]

I've thought of a few designs and ideas:

Biotic Powers:

Pulse - Like the result of a detonated Tech Armour, only a lot more powerful, making the opponents flinch for a few seconds.
Stretch - Two small singularities are placed on opposite sides of an enemy, forcing them to be ripped apart. Can rip off limbs as well, when the opponent is down to health.
Standstill - Rather than lifting a foe into the air, you do the opposite, keeping it in one place. Like Stasis, but they can still attack, and so can you.
Dominate - Should just be a normal move (not bonus), just like AI Hacking.

Tech Powers:

Disable - Stops any Synthetics from moving or attacking.
Confusion - The opponent forgets what they are doing, and shoots randomly, sometimes at you, sometimes at their allies.
Counter Shield - Temporarily reflects all Biotic powers used on you to the enemy that used it.

Combat Powers:

Carnage - With the OP on this one.
Harden - Reduces amount of damage taken from weapons and melee
Strengthen - Increase amount of damage given with weapons and melee
InvisiMissile - Launches a missile that the opponent can barely see for powerful damage.
Clip Launch - Remove all remaining ammo in your clip and throw the heat sink at your opponent, causing it to burn. (Idea was taken from Zaeed's Loyalty Mission)

Hope you like them! Oh, and since the skill trees are becoming more diverse, here's my take on how Overload should look.

Rank 1: Overload.
Rank 2: Wide Overload/Energy Drain
Rank 3: Area Overload/Wide Drain/Strengthened Energy Drain
Rank 4: Field Overload/Area Drain/Master Energy Drain

Overload = Regular Overload
Wide Overload = Regular Overload with a capability of hitting up to 3 enemies near eachother
Area Overload = Wider range as Wide Overload, with up to 5 enemies that can be hit..
Field Overload = Huge range (20m), infinite amount of enemies hit.
Energy Drain = Same as ME2.
Strengthened Energy Drain = Stronger version of Energy Drain, restores more sheilds.
Master Energy Drain = Massively hits opponent's shields/synthetic systems and restores shields fully, no matter how little damage was done.

Final idea = Squad Energy Drain.

When the opponent is hit, the whole squad is given a portion of their shields back.

Thanks

Modifié par Grimjesse127, 14 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[lazuli]

Grimjesse127 wrote...
Standstill - Rather than lifting a foe into the air, you do the opposite, keeping it in one place. Like Stasis, but they can still attack, and so can you.

I think this is my favorite one, even though it doesn't seem all that exciting or visceral at first glance.  We have staggers in ME2 to temporarily stop enemies from moving, but this would still be fantastic.

[RGFrog]

How about the ability to cast biotics on yourself. Jack does it, many asari do it. Why can't shep?

[Bozorgmehr]

Ahglock wrote...

I want class-exclusive stuff, I love it.  But I got to say when I got to the collector ship with my adept and picked up a new weapon I was kind of happy, but when I played through as a vanguard and got a "special" shotgun or  additional weapon I felt left out every time I played through as an adept or engineer again.  My only worry is that they do something like that again and only some classes get the cool class-exclsuive stuff.  As long as they spread the love I am all for it.

My feeling exactly! The main issue is weapons are the most important feature in ME2, they are a lot more powerful than abilities (guns can kill mooks with a single shot whilst you need to use at least 3 powers to do the same without weapons). This should not have been a problem if the class system allowed a more liberal use of weaponry by the casters - but as it stands, casters have the weakest guns and weakest powers (fun to use, but nowhere near the strength of Charge, ARush and Cloak).

There are two ways to balance this. The casters' powers should outclass all combat classes' powers but this would make them way too powerful, probably gamebreaking. Or they can give casters some decent weaponry so they can keep up with the combatants (better solution imo).

[termokanden]

Casters should definitely have strong, unique powers. I may have said this before, but I love how Adepts are balanced. They get a strong biotic power, but that's not really the only good thing about them. They also get easy access to Pull as well as Warp of course.

Sentinels on the other hand have both tech and biotics, but they get the blatantly inferior Throw instead of Pull. This is fair, and yet Throw is not exactly a useless skill.

And yet Adept is not exactly considered the strongest class. I think that has more to do with some other classes having insane special skills (Tech Armor, Adrenaline Rush for example). Singularity is balanced much better because while it remains useful, it's not always the best choice, and spamming it doesn't make you a good player.

Modifié par termokanden, 14 avril 2011 - 02:08 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Let's go a little theoretical / philosophical: :innocent:

It's best to determine what we - the players - expect of each class first; before assigning powers and the like. What's each class' role on the battlefield? What are their strengths and limitations? Without answering these simple questions first, it's almost impossible to give each class its own flavor and maintain some balance between them. Here's how I (would like to) see all classes:

Soldiers should be the most durable class and their sh*tload of weapons gives them an edge whatever enemy they're facing. Soldiers should be a strong yet straightforward class to play (it's the default class and must be noob-friendly) and capable to 'protect' their squadmates with sheer firepower and tanking. Soldier should be the "Sentinel with guns instead of powers".

Vanguards should be CQC specialists AND decent biotics. They are not as durable as Soldiers (no tanking) but they can take more damage than the casters. Their skills should be focused on 'moving fast and hitting even harder' - however, Vanguards should not be able to charge into (large) groups of enemies, their strength should lie in hitting the enemy where it is weakest (move fast, hit hard). Biotic powers are meant to deal with the enemy at range when the Vanguard is scanning the field looking for weaknesses waiting to be exploited.

Infiltrators are difficult to position. In ME1 & 2 they are given a SR (to compensate / complement the SG Vanguard imo). Although a powerful weapon, I don't think sniping is the only thing Infiltrators should do (be good at). Their name and (ME2's) unique skill (Cloak) point towards a sneaky / stealthy character and that should be their role - taking out enemies without knowing who/what hit them. Their skills should be focused on stealth and sabotage (the techie side of the Infiltrator) - They can use Cloak and a SR to get into a superior position to slaughter the enemy in a crossfire, but they should also be able to get into/behind enemy ranks/lines (unseen) and wreck havoc (sabotaging weapon-/defense-systems, hacking, place explosives etc).

Adepts and Engineers should be masters in crowd control and/or damage. Their biotic / tech powers should be more powerful than those of the hybrids (Vanguard, Infiltrator and Sentinel). Adepts can control (parts) of the battlefield using powerful biotic fields to hold/disable enemies whereas the Engineer can summon drones and hack/sabotage enemy mechs, drones and turrets to turn the tide in their favor. Although competent when using weapons, casters are the weakest classes and therefore should try to avoid getting hit in the first place.

Sentinels have to be completely redone. They should be the ultimate teamplayers, the "Jack of all trades, master of none" like a Swiss Army knife (thanks Curunen). Sentinels should be weak (like the Adept and Engineer) but the most versatile (casting) class with access to everything except the best biotic and tech powers. The Sentinel's unique ability should be squadboosting to have them fight better as a whole / team (Sentinel Miranda is a good example of how it should work; she's great (but not exceptional) on all mission/against all enemies and her passive boosts squad health and weapon damage, instead of only her own).

This is how I would like to see all 6 classes - everyone has specific strengths but also limitations in what they can(not) do. I would also like a more squad focus approach in ME3 - squadmates should play a more important role than in ME2. Sentinels are the most obvious party buffing class, but things like using Soldiers to 'protect' the weaker (caster) classes also comes to mind. This should work the other way around too - (de)buffs from casters should improve the damage Soldiers can do with their weapons which should encourage (Soldier) players to select squadmates with care, using the 'right' ones can give them a huge advantage in battle.

Just my two cents what do you guys and gals think each class should be able to do (and what not) i.e. which role should they play on the field of battle?

[TevinterMagister]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Sentinels have to be completely redone. They should be the ultimate teamplayers, the "Jack of all trades, master of none" like a Swiss Army knife (thanks Curunen). Sentinels should be weak (like the Adept and Engineer) but the most versatile (casting) class with access to everything except the best biotic and tech powers. The Sentinel's unique ability should be squadboosting to have them fight better as a whole / team (Sentinel Miranda is a good example of how it should work; she's great (but not exceptional) on all mission/against all enemies and her passive boosts squad health and weapon damage, instead of only her own).

Sounds like a worthless gimp, who wants to play such a class, it reeks mediocrity. Miranda is great because she is a squadmate, not the player.

[termokanden]

Sentinels are a bit of a problem. They were indeed mediocre in ME1. In ME2 they got Tech Armor and became incredibly overpowered.

They could perhaps have a special ability that is both unique and less overpowered than Tech Armor.

[Bachmors]

Infiltrators are difficult to position. In ME1 & 2 they are given a SR (to compensate / complement the SG Vanguard imo). Although a powerful weapon, I don't think sniping is the only thing Infiltrators should do (be good at). Their name and (ME2's) unique skill (Cloak) point towards a sneaky / stealthy character and that should be their role - taking out enemies without knowing who/what hit them. Their skills should be focused on stealth and sabotage (the techie side of the Infiltrator) - They can use Cloak and a SR to get into a superior position to slaughter the enemy in a crossfire, but they should also be able to get into/behind enemy ranks/lines (unseen) and wreck havoc (sabotaging weapon-/defense-systems, hacking, place explosives etc).

I fully agree ... planting explosives, deadly stealth melee-attacks and confusing the enemy (with flashbangs, phantom images etc.) are on my wishlist :-)

[TevinterMagister]

Every class should be fun/powerful/awesome, nothing should dictate that some things should be mediocre. You need to purge the MMO "balanced" game ideas from your mind as they represent the lowest form of gameplay, decades behind the rest of the genres.

[termokanden]

There's nothing primitive or "low" about having balance between the classes. If sentinels are amazing at both tech and biotics, why would you want to play an adept or an engineer?

[TevinterMagister]

It's about gameplay, which in large part ME2 succeeded with for me as I enjoyed them all. Balance is not an issue in a singleplayer game where you are taking on the role as the hero. Easiest insanity run for me was with the engineer, which I've done twice now, but I still want to play Infiltrator or Sentinel because they offer something different. I'm still undecided which class is going to be my canon for the series cause they all have something that I like.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Sentinels have to be completely redone. They should be the ultimate teamplayers, the "Jack of all trades, master of none" like a Swiss Army knife (thanks Curunen). Sentinels should be weak (like the Adept and Engineer) but the most versatile (casting) class with access to everything except the best biotic and tech powers. The Sentinel's unique ability should be squadboosting to have them fight better as a whole / team (Sentinel Miranda is a good example of how it should work; she's great (but not exceptional) on all mission/against all enemies and her passive boosts squad health and weapon damage, instead of only her own).

Sounds like a worthless gimp, who wants to play such a class, it reeks mediocrity. Miranda is great because she is a squadmate, not the player.

I partly agree, in that I feel that this concern may have been a factor in why BW ended up making the Sentinel class the powerhouse that it is. IMHO very few players will want to play ME from the rear, given how few actually do. Also, mediocrity is the main gripe people had with Kaidan in ME1... On the other hand, I understand the need for balance. I think it may be possible for BW to tweak the current Sentinel to be less dominating/easy, yet keep its current flavor.

The main *problem* with the Sentinel is that TA is too powerful. Without getting too much into it, I think a huge difference can already be made simply by nerfing it a bit (ie: lower stats a bit, remove the instant squad cooldown mechanic, etc.). Obviously more could/should be done, but I don't think a full overhaul is called for.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 14 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[termokanden]

Maze of Torment wrote...

It's about gameplay, which in large part ME2 succeeded with for me as I enjoyed them all. Balance is not an issue in a singleplayer game where you are taking on the role as the hero.

I disagree. The game should never become too easy, and classes should be roughly balanced. Not like they are in an MMO or other multiplayer game of course.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

termokanden wrote...

Maze of Torment wrote...

It's about gameplay, which in large part ME2 succeeded with for me as I enjoyed them all. Balance is not an issue in a singleplayer game where you are taking on the role as the hero.

I disagree. The game should never become too easy, and classes should be roughly balanced. Not like they are in an MMO or other multiplayer game of course.

Yeah. Basically a game needs to be challenging and interesting enough overall to maintain playability. For something like ME, each class needs to be balanced well enough that they can be equally attractive to play.

I think ME2's proven that it already does this decently enough. However, with the new elements coming in with ME3, all the existing elements will need to get re-tweaked to ensure an equal, if not superior experience.

[TevinterMagister]

It's easy NOW because we know the level layout, optimal use of skills and mechanics. Remember how people said Vanguards and shotguns sucked when ME2 released? Most people went for Power Armor over Assault Armor back then too, now it's all about AA. I bet we won't find it so easy to dominate once ME3 is here and get our hands on the improved systems.

[Bozorgmehr]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Sounds like a worthless gimp, who wants to play such a class, it reeks mediocrity. Miranda is great because she is a squadmate, not the player.

What's mediocre about someone with tools for every job? (are Soldiers mediocre because all they can do is shoot like everyone else?) Sentinels are the most flexible class which makes them worthy to play. You also haven't read the whole description (you obviously think Sentinels don't get something special) but their unique strength should be in team play (not tanking - that's the complete opposite of what the class is about). The TA bug (which resets squad cooldown whenever it's used) is a powerful ability and something similar can be used to boost squad-performance in ME3. Do I have to explain that, having the ability to use squadmate powers twice (and combine them with the Sentinel's powers - which are highly flexible and can be used) to setup a massive amount of deadly combos, is powerful?

Every class should be fun/powerful/awesome, nothing should dictate that some things should be mediocre. You need to purge the MMO "balanced" game ideas from your mind as they represent the lowest form of gameplay, decades behind the rest of the genres.

Can you explain what MMO has to do with a single player game? Can you also explain why you think a class system is needed if it's all about being "fun/powerful/awesome"? Why not give everyone TA, ARush, Drones and Charge - those powers are "fun/powerful and awesome" but they will break the game = no fun at all (for me). Besides, I haven't mentioned balance at all - I only said which role I think each class has to play in a class-based game.

You have not even played Sentinel yet, how the hell can you say anything about that class without knowing sh*t about it. Please join the discussion once you have played each class and have at least some idea what you're talking about. Saying "balance sucks" and "lowest form of gameplay" and whatnot has nothing to do with the current discussion.

[Ahglock]

Maze of Torment wrote...

It's easy NOW because we know the level layout, optimal use of skills and mechanics. Remember how people said Vanguards and shotguns sucked when ME2 released? Most people went for Power Armor over Assault Armor back then too, now it's all about AA. I bet we won't find it so easy to dominate once ME3 is here and get our hands on the improved systems.

People still complain about adepts being gimped on insanity.  I don't expect absolute balance, ME2 did a good job for single player balance.  Sure some classes are better than others, but all classes are good enough that once you learn the game you can handle any difficulty level with any class with roughly in the same ball park degree of awesomeness.  I'd prefer it to be more balanced, and I especially want any special gifts to be equally given to all classes instead of playing favorites.

Now it being roughly balanced doesn't mean some kind of class balancing shouldn't occur on both the overall level and individual class level.  Sure each class should be closer to being balanced between each other.  But some classes have abilities that are so good they dominate both the game and the playstyle.  I don't think that is good.  Sure your class power should define your class to some degree, but it should not be so good that all you do is use your class power.  That is an unbalanced power and in the end I think it damages replayability because it narrows the way you will play  a class.  

[naledgeborn]

This is my proposition to fixing Tech Armor. Make it a power or cooldown buff (for casting) with moderate shield strength (around + 60% shields) at it's final evolution without the shield boost when it breaks. Like I said earlier, if you get rid of Power Armor's squadmate insta-cooldown it's no where near as broken as AA.

[Bozorgmehr]

naledgeborn wrote...

This is my proposition to fixing Tech Armor. Make it a power or cooldown buff (for casting) with moderate shield strength (around + 60% shields) at it's final evolution without the shield boost when it breaks. Like I said earlier, if you get rid of Power Armor's squadmate insta-cooldown it's no where near as broken as AA.

But you're one step ahead of my previous post. Giving something like TA to the Sentinel (unique skill) still makes them tanks - the only thing your proposal would change is that TA has be (re)casted more often than it is now (which already is almost all the time). That's not a good approach imo.

Sentinel literally means Guard or Guardian - someone who looks over others / keep them save. The ME2 Sentinel is a bit egoistic coz (s)he's only protecting him/herself. I haven't even mentioned all the other abilities Sentinels can use. As it is, you have roughly two ways to play Sentinel. You go full Assault which turns you into a tank who does nothing more than spamming AA and shoot & beat enemies to death or you go casting which basically means you're ignoring the main strength of the Sentinel (TA).

Sentinels should have something that does not block or obstruct the use of their biotic and tech powers - that's their signature, they are the only ones who can use biotic AND tech skills. What's the point in having such a class if all they're doing is tanking (which has nothing to do with tech and biotics anyway).

[TevinterMagister]

What's mediocre about someone with tools for every job? (are Soldiers mediocre because all they can do is shoot like everyone else?)

Nothing mediocre about soldier, ability to use every weapon and their "super" variants combined with ARush is awesome, my first ME2 run was a soldier.

Sentinels are the most flexible class which makes them worthy to play. You also haven't read the whole description (you obviously think Sentinels don't get something special) but their unique strength should be in team play (not tanking - that's the complete opposite of what the class is about)

Try looking up "Sentinel", it really does live up to it's class name now, unlike ME1.

The TA bug (which resets squad cooldown whenever it's used) is a powerful ability and something similar can be used to boost squad-performance in ME3. Do I have to explain that, having the ability to use squadmate powers twice (and combine them with the Sentinel's powers - which are highly flexible and can be used) to setup a massive amount of deadly combos, is powerful?

It's a bug, but BW decided to not patch it, which I find very generous.

Can you explain what MMO has to do with a single player game? Can you also explain why you think a class system is needed if it's all about being "fun/powerful/awesome"? Why not give everyone TA, ARush, Drones and Charge - those powers are "fun/powerful and awesome" but they will break the game = no fun at all (for me). Besides, I haven't mentioned balance at all - I only said which role I think each class has to play in a class-based game.

Shepards role is frontline no matter if his class is Janitor. For it to really work and be rewarding you need rock solid AI, or human players controlling the other party members.

You have not even played Sentinel yet, how the hell can you say anything about that class without knowing sh*t about it. Please join the discussion once you have played each class and have at least some idea what you're talking about. Saying "balance sucks" and "lowest form of gameplay" and whatnot has nothing to do with the current discussion.

Actually my favorite and most played class in ME1 and ME2 is Sentinel followed very close by Engineer and Infiltrator shared in 2nd place.

[Bozorgmehr]

Nothing mediocre about soldier, ability to use every weapon and their "super" variants combined with ARush is awesome, my first ME2 run was a soldier.

Using every weapon is powerful and using (almost) all biotic AND tech skills sucks?

Try looking up "Sentinel", it really does live up to it's class name now, unlike ME1.

Sentinel has nothing to do with tanks. The ME1 Sentinel is much closer to how the Sentinel class should be positioned - thought they obviously need something extra.

Shepards role is frontline no matter if his class is Janitor. For it to really work and be rewarding you need rock solid AI, or human players controlling the other party members.

Cool let's abandon sniping - it's boring and technically impossible, right?

BTW, DA2 AI is pretty bad, but with solid tactics you can play without controlling others and without pausing. I don't know what your position on the battlefield has to do with AI anyway - please explain.

Actually my favorite and most played class in ME1 and ME2 is Sentinel followed very close by Engineer and Infiltrator shared in 2nd place.

Maze of Torment wrote...
 ... but I still want to play Infiltrator or Sentinel because they offer something different.

Have you played Sentinel or what? I'm a little confused.

[Waltzingbear]

I don't think it's fair to say that if you use the Sentinel as a caster without maximizing the effectiveness of TA then he's not fulfilling his strengths nor that the overlapping cooldown creates a bottle neck for his abilities.

The guys in Bioware did a pretty decent job on the classes in ME2 and it seems unlikely (to me) that such a limitation to the class would have gone unnoticed.

The Sentinel's strength is not TA, it is TA and the ability to use tech and biotics; just like the strength of a Soldier is not AR alone as some Soldier builds almost don't use that ability.

[lazuli]

Waltzingbear wrote...
The Sentinel's strength is not TA, it is TA and the ability to use tech and biotics; just like the strength of a Soldier is not AR alone as some Soldier builds almost don't use that ability.

What?  A Soldier not relying on AR is a Soldier playing with a handicap.  What else are you going to use your cooldowns for?  Concussive Shot?

[Waltzingbear]

I've seen a Reverant + Reave build that was pretty interesting just for example.