434 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

This is my proposition to fixing Tech Armor. Make it a power or cooldown buff (for casting) with moderate shield strength (around + 60% shields) at it's final evolution without the shield boost when it breaks. Like I said earlier, if you get rid of Power Armor's squadmate insta-cooldown it's no where near as broken as AA.

But you're one step ahead of my previous post. Giving something like TA to the Sentinel (unique skill) still makes them tanks - the only thing your proposal would change is that TA has be (re)casted more often than it is now (which already is almost all the time). That's not a good approach imo.

Sentinel literally means Guard or Guardian - someone who looks over others / keep them save. The ME2 Sentinel is a bit egoistic coz (s)he's only protecting him/herself. I haven't even mentioned all the other abilities Sentinels can use. As it is, you have roughly two ways to play Sentinel. You go full Assault which turns you into a tank who does nothing more than spamming AA and shoot & beat enemies to death or you go casting which basically means you're ignoring the main strength of the Sentinel (TA).

Sentinels should have something that does not block or obstruct the use of their biotic and tech powers - that's their signature, they are the only ones who can use biotic AND tech skills. What's the point in having such a class if all they're doing is tanking (which has nothing to do with tech and biotics anyway).

I get what your saying. The Sentinel should be the "medic" on the battlefield. But if not TA (which I agree is a tanking ability) what is the Sentinel's signature move? Neural Shock? Not if Armor/Shields/Barriers make a comeback. A powerful squad buff in the Passive (very useful but boring)?  My favortie class is the Sentinel so it hits close to home when people want to get rid of it's signature' power. But overall, I do agree that Tech Armor should be looked at more closely by the devs at the very least. 

[Bozorgmehr]

Waltzingbear wrote...

I don't think it's fair to say that if you use the Sentinel as a caster without maximizing the effectiveness of TA then he's not fulfilling his strengths nor that the overlapping cooldown creates a bottle neck for his abilities.

The guys in Bioware did a pretty decent job on the classes in ME2 and it seems unlikely (to me) that such a limitation to the class would have gone unnoticed.

The Sentinel's strength is not TA, it is TA and the ability to use tech and biotics; just like the strength of a Soldier is not AR alone as some Soldier builds almost don't use that ability.

Can you explain? The power of the Sentinel is TA - that's the only reason to play the class. When you play Sentinel while hanging back and/or staying in cover, you're not using TA's explosion (which is what defines the Sentinel - any class can use Barrier or GSB if they want some extra protection). And without TA it's not really worth playing Sentinel since the Adept and Engineer are better (have more interesting and more powerful abilities).

Waltzingbear wrote...

I've seen a Revenant + Reave build that was pretty interesting just for example.

The Rev can only be used by the Soldier and that can be reason enough (for some) to play Soldier. Reave is a bonus power and has nothing to do with the class. And without the Rev, any class is better using Reave to stay alive in CQC (better cooldown and similar weapons plus other (cool) skills).

The only reason to play Soldier is ARush - a very cool power, but very little imo. One power is not enough to speak of a shooter-rpg - there are many other shooters with more options than that (and they are not labeled rpg).

[TevinterMagister]

Using every weapon is powerful and using (almost) all biotic AND tech skills sucks?

Almost all Biotic and Tech, no, 50/50.

Sentinel has nothing to do with tanks. The ME1 Sentinel is much closer to how the Sentinel class should be positioned - thought they obviously need something extra.

BW disagrees, hence the current incarnation in ME2.

Cool let's abandon sniping - it's boring and technically impossible, right?

No, let's not, my favorite weapons are sniper rifles and shotguns. Time dilation makes 1S1K very much possible, and fun.

BTW, DA2 AI is pretty bad, but with solid tactics you can play without controlling others and without pausing. I don't know what your position on the battlefield has to do with AI anyway - please explain.

If I want something done properly, I have to do it myself. Haven't bought DA2 yet, so I don't know about that.

Have you played Sentinel or what? I'm a little confused.

No you're not, but I'll say it again, my top ranked classes are Sentinel, Engineer and Infiltrator, but they each offer something different that the other one can't in terms of gameplay. ME3 will be balanced, no question about that, but the gameplay each class offers is what it's all about. My complain with your suggestion for my favorite class is that it turns it into something that doesn't sound very exciting to play, and I'm biased and get defensive when it comes to that.

[lazuli]

Waltzingbear wrote...

I've seen a Reverant + Reave build that was pretty interesting just for example.

ME2 is forgiving enough to allow for a wide range of builds.  Reave + Revenant is no doubt a viable build on any difficulty level if the player is experienced, but I wouldn't call it optimal.

[Bozorgmehr]

naledgeborn wrote...

I get what your saying. The Sentinel should be the "medic" on the battlefield. But if not TA (which I agree is a tanking ability) what is the Sentinel's signature move? Neural Shock? Not if Armor/Shields/Barriers make a comeback. A powerful squad buff in the Passive (very useful but boring)?  My favortie class is the Sentinel so it hits close to home when people want to get rid of it's signature' power. But overall, I do agree that Tech Armor should be looked at more closely by the devs at the very least.

That's the problem. I think most will agree that TA doesn't work well with the Sentinel's other abilities and tanking is not the first thing that comes to mind when you look at the power layout. The Sentinel has skills to handle any situation so it makes sense they should use those (instead of tanking alone).

(Squad)buffs are indeed not the coolest abilities and I really like the TA explosion effect. Maybe give Sentinels a TA (squad) boost passive? Something that boosts shields (of all party members) for the entire mission and when the Sentinel's shield goes down there will be an explosion. But by turning TA into a buff it can't be used to instantly recharge shields (which is the reason why TA can be used for tanking in ME2). This forces the Sentinel to play a little more cautiously (similar to Adept and Engineer) whilst they still have the explosion (which helps to get into cover when needed, but Sentinels have to wait for regen to get shields back).

A buff that cannot be used actively is not enough - so adding another signature power might be necessary.

[Bozorgmehr]

Maze of Torment wrote...

No you're not, but I'll say it again, my top ranked classes are Sentinel, Engineer and Infiltrator, but they each offer something different that the other one can't in terms of gameplay. ME3 will be balanced, no question about that, but the gameplay each class offers is what it's all about. My complain with your suggestion for my favorite class is that it turns it into something that doesn't sound very exciting to play, and I'm biased and get defensive when it comes to that.

Now we're getting somewhere. You say you like the Sentinel. What is it exactly that you like so much?

My problem with the Sentinel is simple: Why give a class a bunch of biotic and tech skills when they're not going to use them? A class with such a flexible layout of powers should be great to get the most out of cool power-combos and squadmates - Sentinels should be the most flexible class when it comes to selecting squadmates and that would have opened lots of different tactics one could use. Instead, the Sentinel has become the total opposite - squadmates are a non-issue and the only tactic is to spam TA and shoot/beat everyone to death (with little chance to die in the process). I don't like that, but I can understand some do. If you're one of them then it's not the Sentinel class, but the ability to tank that got your attention - which brings us back to the original post: I said that task or role fits the Soldier best (imo) and Soldiers also have one (dominating) skill and could use a couple more to increase their options.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^What if TA was tweaked to make it less spammable? Like I'd suggested before, a significantly reduced shield bonus, possibly a reduced shockwave, no more cooldown feature, etc... Things to force the Sentinel to play more carefully and rely on other powers more...


What's important IMHO is to bring the TA mayhem down to reasonable reasonable level, yet give Sentinel players enough that they can still lead from the front if desired.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 14 avril 2011 - 05:58 .

[Waltzingbear]

I'm trying to argue that just because a class has only one unique ability that doesn't mean that it is its only unique strength.

A Soldier's only active powers may be Concussive Shot and AR but his strengths are also versatility by utilizing different weapons and different ammo powers for different situations. If I'm fighting collectors I'll activate another ammo power than when I'm fighting geth. When I'm stripping shields I'll use Disruptor but when I'm going for a YMIR's armor I'll activate Warp Ammo; and indeed without using an exploit like Stasis' damage modifier I don't think any class can bring down a YMIR as fast as a Soldier.

I don't know though maybe you're right, I've never done a complete playthrough with a Sentinel before so I can't speak from practice; it only seems logical to me that a Sentinel could have the same versatility by using his powers from afar rather than relying on his TA explosion, although less unique or exciting.

[ZeppMan217]

Warp - should detonate on targets affected by any biotics (throw, pull, barrier - etc.).

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^I didn't play Sentinel spamming TA, but was a long time ago. But I know it can be done. Once a Sentinel clears the DCS, it's very possible to play any subsequent mission with just a guns and AA.

Generally speaking, a class' chief strength is fundamentally tied to its class ability. Soldier, Vaguard, Infiltrator and arguably the Sentinel are totally completely defined by their unique powers. The only real exceptions might be the Adept and maybe maybe the Engineer - but only because they generally need to combine other skills with their main one in order to be any good. Even so, the primary caster classes are still very reliant on their class powers.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 14 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[TevinterMagister]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Now we're getting somewhere. You say you like the Sentinel. What is it exactly that you like so much?

In RPGs I generally like characters that can get things done on their own, my import file is a Sentinel(Bastion) w/sniper bonus, this char was mostly self sufficient and I was free to pick any party members I felt like bringing without being overly reliant on skillset. Now you see why I also like Engineer and Infiltrator, but the biotic ability is what tipped the balance in favor of Sentinel.

My problem with the Sentinel is simple: Why give a class a bunch of biotic and tech skills when they're not going to use them? A class with such a flexible layout of powers should be great to get the most out of cool power-combos and squadmates - Sentinels should be the most flexible class when it comes to selecting squadmates and that would have opened lots of different tactics one could use. Instead, the Sentinel has become the total opposite - squadmates are a non-issue and the only tactic is to spam TA and shoot/beat everyone to death (with little chance to die in the process). I don't like that, but I can understand some do. If you're one of them then it's not the Sentinel class, but the ability to tank that got your attention - which brings us back to the original post: I said that task or role fits the Soldier best (imo) and Soldiers also have one (dominating) skill and could use a couple more to increase their options.

It's a valid concern regarding the biotic and tech abilites being secondary when going AA+Shotgun, but it's fun so I don't mind. In my mind Soldier and Sentinel are closely related, it's just how they do it that's different. Doing the caster sentinel on insanity is just not as fun as going the tank route, it feels very generic to the point I'd rather play Engineer or Adept, something that should be adressed.

Spamming PA for the +15% power damage gets frustrating when the armor is blown off in a second, and you're mostly stuck behind a crate. The ME1 Sentinel was much more rewarding to play as a caster, I had every tool I could possibly need to deal with any enemy in the game, sure you can do that in ME2 as well but nowhere near as fun.

[naledgeborn]

Maze of Torment wrote...
In my mind Soldier and Sentinel are closely related, it's just how they do it that's different.

This. Not as far as tanking but I like the Sentinel because it's exactly on the opposite spectrum of the Soldier and therefore they should behave similarly in some aspects (guarding and protecting doesn't have to be tanking) and completely different in others (relaince on a wide range of powers rather than a large arsenal of weapons). Also I know what you mean about self reliaince. I had an AR Sentinel in ME1 and Ashley and I were all that was needed for Insanity. The 3rd squaddie was always an obvious 3rd wheel in that playthrough.

[Bozorgmehr]

Waltzingbear wrote...

I'm trying to argue that just because a class has only one unique ability that doesn't mean that it is its only unique strength.

I don't know though maybe you're right, I've never done a complete playthrough with a Sentinel before so I can't speak from practice; it only seems logical to me that a Sentinel could have the same versatility by using his powers from afar rather than relying on his TA explosion, although less unique or exciting.

Agreed, all I'm saying is; a system that gives all classes an unique ability without making all the other (powers) redundant is better. Don't get the wrong idea, I like ARush, TA and Charge. But they are too dominant and, like Sentinels are TA addicts, Vanguards are Charge-bots. Both the Sentinel and Vanguard are hybrids yet all they do is using one combat power (given a tech/biotic sauce - and Sentinels are not even considered combat specialists!). I love Charge, but without the overwhelming experience when trying to use it properly for the first time (in ME2), it's not enough for me to call it a biotic/combat specialist in ME3- it's a Charge maniac only.

What I like to see in ME3 are classes that can still use the abilities that made them so much fun to play in ME2, but limit their powers so they cannot breeze through the game using one ability only (on Insanity). Vanguards should still be able to Charge and go berserk - that's great - but they should not be able to Charge anything (and I'm not talking about those unchargeable enemies in ME2 (that's poor design) - but too many enemies which would make Charge suicidal). This would keep all the Charge-fun but also forces the Vanguard to use his/her biotic powers at times - making it a true hybrid and a lot more fun to play imo.

Maze of Torment wrote...

In RPGs I generally like characters that can get things done on their own, my import file is a Sentinel(Bastion) w/sniper bonus, this char was mostly self sufficient and I was free to pick any party members I felt like bringing without being overly reliant on skillset. Now you see why I also like Engineer and Infiltrator, but the biotic ability is what tipped the balance in favor of Sentinel.

Due to poor squad AI, I too prefer to play a class or character who can handle themselves on their own But it's still a bad thing to have a squad-based game when your squad hardly affects combat performance. A good system would allow us to play without squadmates, but making it much harder (up to becoming tedious) whilst with (good use of) squadmates you can get through much faster and in a more spectacular way.

It's a valid concern regarding the biotic and tech abilites being secondary when going AA+Shotgun, but it's fun so I don't mind. In my mind Soldier and Sentinel are closely related, it's just how they do it that's different. Doing the caster sentinel on insanity is just not as fun as going the tank route, it feels very generic to the point I'd rather play Engineer or Adept, something that should be adressed.

Exactly. Although I disagree that Sentinels should have the option to go pure tank, I wouldn't have minded if the "Power route" would have resulted in a (more or less) equally powerful character. But as it stands, you're only gimping yourself by using Power Armor and go casting.

Spamming PA for the +15% power damage gets frustrating when the armor is blown off in a second, and you're mostly stuck behind a crate. The ME1 Sentinel was much more rewarding to play as a caster, I had every tool I could possibly need to deal with any enemy in the game, sure you can do that in ME2 as well but nowhere near as fun.

Yeah, PA sucks And I'd like the ME3 Sentinel to be a rewarding caster (too - if BW keeps AA). Just like Vanguard's Charge, there should be more to a class than one power alone to make them feel special. I like Adepts best because I love biotics but also because of gameplay. Adept are best when they use all powers combined and they can setup combos (themselves). Powers that work together to increase their potential effect are great - I'd like to see something similar in ME3 with all classes.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 14 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[chester013]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

chester013 wrote...

I'd like an evolved form of AI hacking available to Infiltrators and Engineers because let's face it, it sucks right now.

AI Hacking does not suck social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/261/index/5743362 at all.

I like your style

[Malanek]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^What if TA was tweaked to make it less spammable? Like I'd suggested before, a significantly reduced shield bonus, possibly a reduced shockwave, no more cooldown feature, etc... Things to force the Sentinel to play more carefully and rely on other powers more...

The teammate cooldown is the most interesting feature of TA and I think it fits well. I don't think it should be removed, if anything more abilities like that should be added. As for Shields, they are not that powerful, if you stand up in the open they still get shredded very quickly when 2 or 3 enemies can firte on you. Maybe take the shockwave away and just put it on one evolution and also reduce the radius significantly. Put the shield restore boost on the other evolution. I like the Sentinel, probably my second favourite class after the Adept. I want Tech Armour to stay.

[Saaziel]

I like the idea of having multiple "evolution" of powers over the course of the game. Not sure if its going to be as it is now, or if its something you "pick up" like bonus weapons in ME2. In any event i can't think of any new powers that could not be replicated with the current iteration of abilities & some new evolved versions.

- An evolved version that does something that resemble Katsumi's "Rapid" Shadow strike . An engineer that finishes off a target with an incinerate, for example, would reduce the cooldown by a 50/80% . Alternatively have an option to remove a power from global cooldown altogether.

-Evolved version of powers with sharper emphasis on the power's propriety. For instance , a Concussive shot that would remove Barriers completely , instead of adding damage or Knockdowns. Or similarly some means of working around armour; A single target pull that works through shields.

-An evolved version of a power that provide a passive buff to the squad with similar powers. For example a maxed out Cryo ammo could add Frost bite damage to Cryo bast. A maxed out Warp could increase the % of Warp ammo, or add an Impact knockdown component.

I can think of a few passive abilities for each classes, but i don't think its worth mentioning. Something I'd like very much to see is more power "combos"; A Shockwave hitting a frozen target could send shards damaging near by enemies. Hitting a biotically ragdolled target with an Overload could make an Electrical arc like the "Arc projector".

Anyways , enough ramblings.

Modifié par Saaziel, 14 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[PrinceLionheart]

I just had this thought, concerning the Vanguard, and I totally hope they do away with Area Charge. For the most part, its fairly useless. Instead, I think charge should be more similar to how Tela Vasir's worked.

Heavy charge functions like it did in the first game, but it's special feature allows you to power up before charge, doing more damage on impact. The second form of charge allows you to navigate the battlefield (ie for flanking or escaping.)

[Malanek]

Area charge should work like the Sentinel shockwave.

[RedCaesar97]

I think the class passive abilities should be changed slightly in ME3. In ME2, the +power damage, +power cooldown, and +power duration abilities affected all combat, ammo, tech, and biotic abilities on that class. For example, if you took Shield Drain on your Adept, the +15% cooldown bonus applied to your biotic abilities and Shield Drain.

I like the global cooldown system in ME2, but I think ME1's class-specific passive abilities worked better: Engineers gained power damage, power cooldown, and power duration bonuses for tech abilities only, Adepts gained bonuses for all biotic abilities, Sentinels got bonuses for both biotic and tech abilities, but not as much as Engineers or Adepts.

So for ME3, I'd like to see:
Soldiers gain the big damage bonuses to weapons and combat abilities.
Engineers gain big bonuses to tech abilites only.
Adepts gain big bonuses to biotic abilities only.
Infiltrators gain modest bonuses to weapons, combat, and tech abilities.
Vanguards gain modest bonuses to weapons, combat, and biotic abilities.
Sentinels gain modest bonuses to biotic and tech abilities.

This would still allow you to put a bonus biotic power on Soldiers/Engineers/Infiltrators, or a bonus tech power on Soldiers/Adepts/Vanguards, and so on, but they would not receive blanket bonuses like they do now.

As for Tech Armor, the armor explosion should have been the Assault Armor evolution. For the Power Armor evolution, perhaps reduced shield damage (-25-50 percent?) or regenenerating shields (maybe something like 5-15% shields/s?) would have been better? So for assaulting, you want the explosion, while casters want the regeneration so they do not have to put the armor back on constantly.

I know there is some speculation about the "multiple evolutions per power" that has been reported. Having not read the Game Informer article yet--and from what I have seen on these forums it does not look like it was explained--it may not be ME2-style evolutions, but perhaps a return to ME1-style Basic-Advanced-Master evolutions.

[lazuli]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

As for Tech Armor, the armor explosion should have been the Assault Armor evolution. For the Power Armor evolution, perhaps reduced shield damage (-25-50 percent?) or regenenerating shields (maybe something like 5-15% shields/s?) would have been better? So for assaulting, you want the explosion, while casters want the regeneration so they do not have to put the armor back on constantly.

This would wreck early game Sentinels.  "Congratulations.  Your class-specific power is a Barrier without a duration until you sink 10 points into it."

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

As for Tech Armor, the armor explosion should have been the Assault Armor evolution. For the Power Armor evolution, perhaps reduced shield damage (-25-50 percent?) or regenenerating shields (maybe something like 5-15% shields/s?) would have been better? So for assaulting, you want the explosion, while casters want the regeneration so they do not have to put the armor back on constantly.

This would wreck early game Sentinels.  "Congratulations.  Your class-specific power is a Barrier without a duration until you sink 10 points into it."

Yeah, the problem with TA (and Charge/ARush) are not the effects an sich, but the option to spam - which results in using one power over and over again and ignoring everything else. Sentinels are tech/biotics not pure tanks; Vanguards are combat/biotics; not Charge maniacs only. I think it's not really worthwhile to gimp those powers (Charge must be powerful or it becomes suicidal) but instead look for ways to block (or greatly discourage) spamming those powers.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I think it's not really worthwhile to gimp those powers (Charge must be powerful or it becomes suicidal) but instead look for ways to block (or greatly discourage) spamming those powers.

I think tweaking AA's shield bonus / shockwave so that it's rhythm is upset could go a long way in that.
Eg: We could massively nerf the shockwave (say, make it stagger only), which would make AA/Shotgun spam a lot less deadly; or reduce AA's shield bonus significantly (maybe reduce by 1/2 or 2/3) to make it a lot less safe and harder to spam; or we could do anything in between.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 15 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[TevinterMagister]

What we know so far is that classes and abilites are going to remain the same for the most part, but there's some issues but they are difficulty related, such as Area Charge and Power Armor being the lesser evolutions at hardcore/insanity. And then there's the ability I really think needs the most fixing, Shockwave, reducing cooldown to 4,5 and doubling the speed at which the shockwave travels would've done a lot for this on the highest difficulties.

Something that's not been mentioned is what happens to bonus powers and how they translate into ME3, if at all. Would love my Infiltrator to keep Crippling Slam in ME3.

[RedCaesar97]

lazuli wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

As for Tech Armor, the armor explosion should have been the Assault Armor evolution. For the Power Armor evolution, perhaps reduced shield damage (-25-50 percent?) or regenenerating shields (maybe something like 5-15% shields/s?) would have been better? So for assaulting, you want the explosion, while casters want the regeneration so they do not have to put the armor back on constantly.

This would wreck early game Sentinels.  "Congratulations.  Your class-specific power is a Barrier without a duration until you sink 10 points into it."

Good point.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 15 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Something that's not been mentioned is what happens to bonus powers and how they translate into ME3, if at all. Would love my Infiltrator to keep Crippling Slam in ME3.

Yeah, we've left that out.

The ME2 bonus powers are a huge reason why we can have as many playstyles as we do for each class, I think... Not to mention the fact that many of the unique styles are as viable as the mainstream ones. I think BW really needs to keep this kind of class variability in ME3.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 15 avril 2011 - 06:25 .