434 réponses à ce sujet

[Sparrow44]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

...The Jack of all Trades is a Master Tank...

...but the current Sentinel isn't a biotic/tech specialist...

I don't mind if a Sentinel can play as both a tank and a caster as long as TA isn't as overpowered and if they have more/better powers to work with once shields break instead of re-casting (spamming) time and again.

My take on the Sentinel is they are strategists with flexible options available to them and should use those mix of talents in conjunction with offense and defense in combat.

[Jmrice88]

Has there been any discussion about how weapons will be handled in ME3? I know every class will be able to use every weapon, but has anything been said other than that?

[Stardusk78]

Jmrice88 wrote...

Has there been any discussion about how weapons will be handled in ME3? I know every class will be able to use every weapon, but has anything been said other than that?

Far as we know, no.

I guess casters will need to be more strategic about their weapons choices, based on missions, maybe on an Armour Heavy mission, an Engineer might take a SR and a Pistol with him, when fighting shielded enemies, a shotgun and a SMG.

[Sparrow44]

Hopefully ammo mods return to an inventory system that don't need points spending and only exclusive to combat classes or as bonus powers only, that way stuff like Tungsten ammo and Shredder ammo are highly useful again.

Meaning that any weapon can handle any situation where enemies have tougher defences as long as you have the right ammo (and mods) with you.

[Malanek]

Sparroww wrote...
At the moment the class can't use biotic combos itself and most of the cooldown tends to be spent on re-activating Tech Armor.

This simply isn't the case for me. When I play I would say overall it would be about 25% TA, 35% warp/reave, 30% overload/energy drain, 10% throw.  And when you do activate TA it means you then instantly have 2 teammate powers you can activate. The Sentinel can be a power spamming class with versatility and good survivability.

[Stardusk78]

Sparroww wrote...

Hopefully ammo mods return to an inventory system that don't need points spending and only exclusive to combat classes or as bonus powers only, that way stuff like Tungsten ammo and Shredder ammo are highly useful again.

Meaning that any weapon can handle any situation where enemies have tougher defences as long as you have the right ammo (and mods) with you.

Very acceptable change.

[Malanek]

Purely from a gameplay perspective I liked ammo powers. With global cooldowns I liked the way you could set up before hand. I don't mind the fact that non-combat classes don't get specialised ammo powers easily at all. They should not be able to deal damage as effectively with weapons. Having some squadmates with ammo powers and some squadmates without them made choosing and leveling your team much more interesting as well.

[termokanden]

I didn't like having to put nearly one-fifth of all my points into an ammo power to get the most out of it. They make it feel like there's very little going on in terms of progression. No new abilities. At least other powers change a lot more noticably.

I certainly wouldn't mind if ammo powers become ammo "mods" for your weapon like in ME1.

[Bozorgmehr]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Then I suggest you take a look at thisisme's excellent Power Armor+AR sentinel videos here and here. There's nothing about them that indicate failure as you say, on the contrary it's damn good fun. Personally pick shotguns, but heavy throw + deep cryo is always bound to RB+LB on my controller.

Well, actually those two vids demonstrate exactly what the problem is. Thisisme is an excellent player and those are awesome vids, but have little to do with Sentinels specificly. The unique power doesn't make any real difference (basically only improving the way Shep's armor looks) - it pops 3 times in +10 minutes play. Why play Sentinel when you can do all that plus have Singularity or Drones playing Adept or Engineer?

The freeze-shatter combo is great, but not limited to Sentinels. It's also a bit pointless to freeze an enemy who you're about to Throw of the map anyways. It looks nice (but enemies can't die twice Technically it's a waste of cooldown. Cryo effects and biotics also don't interact well (biotics don't work when target is freezing) making it a tricky combo - I really hope BW corrects this in ME3.

The real problem is not about the Sentinel being a bad class to play - they're great. But TA and casting cannot coexist in one playstyle. You either go casting and ignore TA; or go assault and use TA (but have little room to cast other powers) - you can't do both. The unique powers of the other two casters do not block the use of other skills, all I'm saying is that something that doesn't block the use of either the signature power or all the others is preferable. If you have ideas how to solve this issue please share. That's what I'm doing here - brainstorming and throwing ideas into the discussion.

[TevinterMagister]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Maze of Torment wrote...

Then I suggest you take a look at thisisme's excellent Power Armor+AR sentinel videos here and here. There's nothing about them that indicate failure as you say, on the contrary it's damn good fun. Personally pick shotguns, but heavy throw + deep cryo is always bound to RB+LB on my controller.

Well, actually those two vids demonstrate exactly what the problem is. Thisisme is an excellent player and those are awesome vids, but have little to do with Sentinels specificly. The unique power doesn't make any real difference (basically only improving the way Shep's armor looks) - it pops 3 times in +10 minutes play. Why play Sentinel when you can do all that plus have Singularity or Drones playing Adept or Engineer?

The freeze-shatter combo is great, but not limited to Sentinels. It's also a bit pointless to freeze an enemy who you're about to Throw of the map anyways. It looks nice (but enemies can't die twice Technically it's a waste of cooldown. Cryo effects and biotics also don't interact well (biotics don't work when target is freezing) making it a tricky combo - I really hope BW corrects this in ME3.

The real problem is not about the Sentinel being a bad class to play - they're great. But TA and casting cannot coexist in one playstyle. You either go casting and ignore TA; or go assault and use TA (but have little room to cast other powers) - you can't do both. The unique powers of the other two casters do not block the use of other skills, all I'm saying is that something that doesn't block the use of either the signature power or all the others is preferable. If you have ideas how to solve this issue please share. That's what I'm doing here - brainstorming and throwing ideas into the discussion.

Riiight, next you'll tell me mobs fall over from the slightest breeze once you remove protections on insanity, that's not the case and you know it, throw does a lot more damage on a frozen mob, use pull on frozen mob before throw and it's insane as the videos clearly demonstrates. But tell you what, stick to your adept and let me enjoy my sentinel.

[Bozorgmehr]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Riiight, next you'll tell me mobs fall over from the slightest breeze once you remove protections on insanity, that's not the case and you know it, throw does a lot more damage on a frozen mob, use pull on frozen mob before throw and it's insane as the videos clearly demonstrates. But tell you what, stick to your adept and let me enjoy my sentinel.

You obviously missed the whole point.

[termokanden]

I do think it's fair to say that Adepts and Engineers have better selections of powers to use against enemies. Sentinels make up for this by having Tech Armor. But they lack the good biotics selection of the Adept or the Combat Drone of the Engineer.

And it has already been pointed out that keeping up Tech Armor interferes with using other powers. I can't help but think you're better off considering the Sentinel a tank and just grabbing Assault Armor and a shotgun.

Man I really can't spell today.

Modifié par termokanden, 18 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[Bozorgmehr]

termokanden wrote...

I do think it's fair to say that Adepts and Engineers have better selections of powers to use against enemies. Sentinels make up for this by having Tech Armor. But they lack the good biotics selection of the Adept or the Combat Drone of the Engineer.

And it has already been pointed out that keeping up Tech Armor interferes with using other powers. I can't help but think you're better off considering the Sentinel a tank and just grabbing Assault Armor and a shotgun.

Man I really can't spell today.

Indeed, Tech Armor and shotguns have better synergy than TA and Warp. If you gonna build the Sentinel around TA it makes more sense to add some goodies they can use for tanking instead of a random selection of biotic/tech skills which will see very limited action anyways.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

True. Caster Sentinels down have any real power combos... Their 'special casting talent' consists of essentially just plain spamming direct damage spells. However, I always just chaulked this lack of combos up to the Sentinel being a hybrid class, so I never had much of a problem with this.

I've still never gotten to creating a Caster Sentinel, and it's been forever since I played my Assault Sentinel... is the Caster really much much weaker? Do we necessarily need spectacular combos for the Sentinel?

[Kronner]

A question: Why should every class be like Adept or Engineer? Caster? Why?

Sentinel is a tank in ME2, with some extra goodies on top. It's actually pretty cool class, but unfortunately poor QA resulted in overpowered Assault Armor, which could easily be fixed. Who cares about combos..you can enjoy those on other classes.

Modifié par Kronner, 18 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[Sparrow44]

Something I've realized is that TA is 4 powers in one, the shield boost, the pulse effect, the squad cooldown reset and either an instant shield recharge from breaking or a power damage buff depending on the evolution.

Just split the power into different components and cooldowns if they're to return, so you can activate the pulse ability at will instead of waiting for the shields to break albeit at maybe a smaller cooldown lets say 6 second base cooldown, and I suppose it can still let you play however you want with other powers without comprising with a hefty 12 cooldown just to recharge.

Kronner wrote...

A question: Why should every class be like Adept or Engineer? Caster? Why?
 
Sentinelis a tank in ME2, with some extra goodies on top. It's actually pretty cool class, but unfortunately poor QA resulted in overpowered Assault Armor, which could easily be fixed. Who cares about combos..you can enjoy those on other classes.

In fairness I see the Sentinel as more of a hybrid class than a true caster, they're only considered a caster due to the fact they got the same weapons treatment in ME2 (SMG and Pistol) if anything the Sentinel resembles more of a combat/biotic/tech hybrid - an all in one class so maybe Sentinel should've got an additional weapon slot to begin with same as other hyrbrids like the Vanguards and Infiltrators.

If anything the weapon system means 'casters' no longer get the shaft when it comes to starting weapon training; in other words it's an improvement in ME3.

Modifié par Sparroww, 18 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[Saaziel]

I think it boils down to gaming "archetypes".

You have your Warrior/Soldier types , your Stealth/Assassin types and the Special weapons/Mage types. Sub types are generally , and especially for ME , a combination of 2 or 3 of the archetypes above.

Its hard to classify Sentinels because they had a significant change from ME1 to ME2. Personally i find the changes even more drastic for the Vanguard , but its also due to the fact that it turns "cover base shooting" straight on its head. I'd see the sentinel more as a Paladin/Clerical type of class but for shooters. I think its rather unconventional to have a set up like this. As it is , i  like the sentinel and how it plays. But like all the classes the specialization , the Sentinel's could be more acute.

P.S.- I don't like to bring "swords & sorcery" to a Sci-fi context but the comparison seemed apt. Also I'm not implying that you should base classes off the tri-hero meta, but its how people make sense of game play.

{edit} If we're to make suggestions , i'll point to my earlier post. I think a good way to differentiate classes is to have "Unique" evolution of similar powers. So a Sentinel's "Warp evolve" could be a AoE version and an Damage Increased version , while the Adept's would be more "Combo" friendly with a larger detonation evolve or an instant recharge on death from warp evolve.

Modifié par Saaziel, 18 avril 2011 - 10:35 .

[Aumata]

Sparroww wrote...
If anything the weapon system means 'casters' no longer get the shaft when it comes to starting weapon training; in other words it's an improvement in ME3.

Ain't that the truth the classes plays way differently.  Though I wonder how the Soldier class is going to change?

[TevinterMagister]

Saaziel wrote...

I think it boils down to gaming "archetypes".

You have your Warrior/Soldier types , your Stealth/Assassin types and the Special weapons/Mage types. Sub types are generally , and especially for ME , a combination of 2 or 3 of the archetypes above.

Its hard to classify Sentinels because they had a significant change from ME1 to ME2. Personally i find the changes even more drastic for the Vanguard , but its also due to the fact that it turns "cover base shooting" straight on its head. I'd see the sentinel more as a Paladin/Clerical type of class but for shooters. I think its rather unconventional to have a set up like this. As it is , i  like the sentinel and how it plays. But like all the classes the specialization , the Sentinel's could be more acute.

P.S.- I don't like to bring "swords & sorcery" to a Sci-fi context but the comparison seemed apt. Also I'm not implying that you should base classes off the tri-hero meta, but its how people make sense of game play.

{edit} If we're to make suggestions , i'll point to my earlier post. I think a good way to differentiate classes is to have "Unique" evolution of similar powers. So a Sentinel's "Warp evolve" could be a AoE version and an Damage Increased version , while the Adept's would be more "Combo" friendly with a larger detonation evolve or an instant recharge on death from warp evolve.

You're quite right, we get so hung up in archetypes we become blind to other possibilites and therefore assume ME classes must adhere to preconceptions assosiated with them, the Sentinel - Paladin comparison is apt. It would be more realistic to think about how skills will evolve from the existing framework in ME2 instead of destroying a class and starting from scratch.

You obviously missed the whole point.

Point is that it's fine for people like me who enjoy what I have.

Modifié par Maze of Torment, 18 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[Ahglock]

Maze of Torment wrote...



Point is that it's fine for people like me who enjoy what I have.

ME1 adept fans can/could/did say the same thing, that does not mean what they wanted was the best thing for the game.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 18 avril 2011 - 11:23 .

[TevinterMagister]

Ahglock wrote...

Maze of Torment wrote...



Point is that it's fine for people like me who enjoy what I have.

ME1 adept fans can/could/did say the same thing, that does not mean what they wanted was the best thing for the game.  

What is the best thing for the game? I was a Sentinel /w sniper bonus in ME1, and due to the changes in ME2 the only way for me to emulate the playstyle I had in ME1 is to change to ME2 infiltrator w/slam bonus. Which I eventually did and enjoyed. You make it sound like an injustice was done to the Adept and that it was broken in ME2.

[The Spamming Troll]

i honestly dont see a point in ME having classes at all. putting the class label on a character only limits what that character can do, and i dont like limiting waht i can do. maybe if being a vangaurd served ANY kind of purpose in the story itd be interesting to be one class or another. but its not like shepard walked up to wrex and said "hey im already a vanguard, be something else." classes mean nothing to the game, and they mean nothing to me.

id rather have a charging, cloaking, revenant blasting pull spammer. that sounds like fun! and no i dont care what you think is balanced or not. i dont play videogames to be balanced. im commander shepard and i hope im not saving the galaxy as an adept in ME3, with my PISTOL!!!

[TevinterMagister]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i honestly dont see a point in ME having classes at all. putting the class label on a character only limits what that character can do, and i dont like limiting waht i can do. maybe if being a vangaurd served ANY kind of purpose in the story itd be interesting to be one class or another. but its not like shepard walked up to wrex and said "hey im already a vanguard, be something else." classes mean nothing to the game, and they mean nothing to me.

id rather have a charging, cloaking, revenant blasting pull spammer. that sounds like fun! and no i dont care what you think is balanced or not. i dont play videogames to be balanced. im commander shepard and i hope im not saving the galaxy as an adept in ME3, with my PISTOL!!!

Heh, maybe it would for the best if ME had a classless skillsystem, then we wouldn't have people losing sleep over what the other classes can do that their favorite can't.

[Ahglock]

Maze of Torment wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Maze of Torment wrote...



Point is that it's fine for people like me who enjoy what I have.

ME1 adept fans can/could/did say the same thing, that does not mean what they wanted was the best thing for the game.  

What is the best thing for the game? I was a Sentinel /w sniper bonus in ME1, and due to the changes in ME2 the only way for me to emulate the playstyle I had in ME1 is to change to ME2 infiltrator w/slam bonus. Which I eventually did and enjoyed. You make it sound like an injustice was done to the Adept and that it was broken in ME2.

No I am saying the exact opposite actually.  In ME1 Adpets were unstoppable(immunity was just as bad in a  different way), their powers could CC anything no matter the difficulty, no matter the opponent.  ME2 came a long and many ME1 adept fans compalained, they thought the ME1 way was fine for them and poeople like them who enjoyed what they had.  Does that mean bioware should have biotics so thery can instantly CC all enemies on all difficulties?  
  If TA is too good, you liking it being too good isn't a good enough reason to keep it that way, just like the adept fans couldn't or shouldn;t expect biotics to work the same way in ME2.  Maybe ME2 went to far, maybe there would be a better fix, but unstoppable biotics is not a good thing to keep.  If TA is just too good, yeah it should be changed it will make it a better game overall.  

[TevinterMagister]

Ahglock wrote...

If TA is just too good, yeah it should be changed it will make it a better game overall.  

Better game for whom? You see players like Kronner who mastered a class like Vanguard, AA sentinel will be a cakewalk, but he ultimately prefers Vanguard for its gameplay. But he also mentioned a very important fact that he had his friends play and they are not able to do what he does. Consider the skill level of the average player and not the top tier players. Soldier is the default class for most and it's a relatively easy class to get into and play, and it's needed for the game to appeal to a larger audience.