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[The Angry One]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

[PlumPaul93]

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

Did it ever occur to you that he was a Blood Mage all along, and played you for a fool? And he had no reason? There was a friggin annulment going on, he knows exactly what was going to happen. Even if he had succeeded at defeating the Templars in Kirkwall, what then? Do you think the Divine would let it slip? He was a Blood Mage who made one last desperate act, to take as many Templars with him as possible. Why he turns on Hawke, can be because he didn't fully understand the magic he was using. After all the "original" Harvester included binding a fade spirit in flesh.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[Selenora]

The Angry One wrote...

My first Hawke sided with the mages because despite all the evil mages and such, she was a mage and Orsino seemed like the one reasonable person in all of Kirkwall to follow.
And then.. that happened. Plot failure doesn't even begin to describe it.

Same here

[The Angry One]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Did it ever occur to you that he was a BLood Mage all along, and palyed you for a fool? And he had no reason? There was a friggin annulment going on, he knows exactly what was going to happen. Even if he had succeeded at defeating the Templars in Kirkwall, what then? Do you think the Divine would let it slip? He was a BLood Mage who made one last desperate act, to take as many Templars with him as possible. Why he turns on Hawke, can be becasue he didn't fully understand the magic he was using. After all the "original" Harvester included binding a fade spirit in flesh.

That's not the point. The point is he shouldn't have been like that in a story that claims to be of grey areas and not black and white.
Also, playing you for a fool is one of the flaws in the storyline, since everybody plays Hawke for a fool.

Finally it being "unexpected" is not necesarilly good.
They could end it with a UFO landing on Kirkwall's keep, spewing out an army of Kirbys who declare "All your base are belong to us."
That'd be unexpected too. It'd also be crap.

[BigEvil]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

I've got to agree with The Angry One, this was bad writing. As much as I love DA2 the end bosses were very disappointing in terms of story. Had a blast fighting them (well apart from my 2nd playthrough with bugged/slowmo rogue, damn it Izzy) but Orsino turning on a pro-mage Hawke was not good. Unexpected twists can be good, but this was not unexpected, it was just stupid. They could have built on the letter in the serial killer's lair, they could have spent some time developing Orsino to make it seem he was desperate and conflicted before giving in at his lowest ebb but they painted him as the reasonable, only sane man and then make him do something which seems so illogical that it almost seems out of character for him.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Did it ever occur to you that he was a BLood Mage all along, and palyed you for a fool? And he had no reason? There was a friggin annulment going on, he knows exactly what was going to happen. Even if he had succeeded at defeating the Templars in Kirkwall, what then? Do you think the Divine would let it slip? He was a BLood Mage who made one last desperate act, to take as many Templars with him as possible. Why he turns on Hawke, can be becasue he didn't fully understand the magic he was using. After all the "original" Harvester included binding a fade spirit in flesh.

That's not the point. The point is he shouldn't have been like that in a story that claims to be of grey areas and not black and white.
Also, playing you for a fool is one of the flaws in the storyline, since everybody plays Hawke for a fool.

Finally it being "unexpected" is not necesarilly good.
They could end it with a UFO landing on Kirkwall's keep, spewing out an army of Kirbys who declare "All your base are belong to us."
That'd be unexpected too. It'd also be crap.

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Angry One wrote...
They could end it with a UFO landing on Kirkwall's keep, spewing out an army of Kirbys who declare "All your base are belong to us."

I could see Mary doing just that.

[1Nosphorus1]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

Trololoololololool

The only reason it was added was because we saw a harvester in the trailer, and guess what, Orsino's transformation undermines the entire GoA dlc and lore that went with it.

Act 3 was an abomination in it's own right.

[PlumPaul93]

BigEvil wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

I've got to agree with The Angry One, this was bad writing. As much as I love DA2 the end bosses were very disappointing in terms of story. Had a blast fighting them (well apart from my 2nd playthrough with bugged/slowmo rogue, damn it Izzy) but Orsino turning on a pro-mage Hawke was not good. Unexpected twists can be good, but this was not unexpected, it was just stupid. They could have built on the letter in the serial killer's lair, they could have spent some time developing Orsino to make it seem he was desperate and conflicted before giving in at his lowest ebb but they painted him as the reasonable, only sane man and then make him do something which seems so illogical that it almost seems out of character for him.

You are very correct it was insanely stupid and was just used for another boss no matter what side you took as others have said

[EmperorSahlertz]

BigEvil wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

I've got to agree with The Angry One, this was bad writing. As much as I love DA2 the end bosses were very disappointing in terms of story. Had a blast fighting them (well apart from my 2nd playthrough with bugged/slowmo rogue, damn it Izzy) but Orsino turning on a pro-mage Hawke was not good. Unexpected twists can be good, but this was not unexpected, it was just stupid. They could have built on the letter in the serial killer's lair, they could have spent some time developing Orsino to make it seem he was desperate and conflicted before giving in at his lowest ebb but they painted him as the reasonable, only sane man and then make him do something which seems so illogical that it almost seems out of character for him.

But that is just it. What he did in the Gallows was not illogical, well... It wasn't THAT kind of illogical. He knew he was doomed. He did one last act to take as many Templars as possible with him in death.

[Chuvvy]

Every mage in DA2 is a bloodmage and the one that isn't is half way to abomination and, well Bethany's okay. But you see them torture and shove demons into templar recruits, kill their wives, betray after you saving them, they kill your mother, get people killed, turn into monster (orsino not your average abomination), get possessed by demons and, in general give the templars more than enough reason to do what they're doing. At a certain point DA2 became a guessing game of "Okay, when will this mage screw me and how?". Honestly had I not played DAO and seen that most mages are just people, I'd have sided with the templars, because there's no reason to side with the mages, outside of Bethany, or you being a mage.

[Selenora]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

I didnt feel betrayed but i certainly felt i fight for a lost cause...both of them were insane......

But when Orsino asked Meredith to invoke the right of Annulment i was in awe...and then i was like...behhhh..

And Cass thinks Hawke is behind all
(Yes, yes we all know who was really behind all these )

[The Angry One]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

So DA2 was meant to teach us that all mages are evil, backstabbing murderers? Is that it?

[Chuvvy]

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

So DA2 was meant to teach us that all mages are evil, backstabbing murderers? Is that it?

That was the mainplot, everyone knows that. That's why the story was bad. They had to turn that six word sentence into a videogame.

[BigEvil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

I've got to agree with The Angry One, this was bad writing. As much as I love DA2 the end bosses were very disappointing in terms of story. Had a blast fighting them (well apart from my 2nd playthrough with bugged/slowmo rogue, damn it Izzy) but Orsino turning on a pro-mage Hawke was not good. Unexpected twists can be good, but this was not unexpected, it was just stupid. They could have built on the letter in the serial killer's lair, they could have spent some time developing Orsino to make it seem he was desperate and conflicted before giving in at his lowest ebb but they painted him as the reasonable, only sane man and then make him do something which seems so illogical that it almost seems out of character for him.

But that is just it. What he did in the Gallows was not illogical, well... It wasn't THAT kind of illogical. He knew he was doomed. He did one last act to take as many Templars as possible with him in death.

It was illogical though. I can understand a doomed last act to take them down with him, that could have made sense if they had made Orsino pull a heroic sacrifice. But it didn't need blood magic. It certainly didn't make sense that we'd just cleared out a large wave of Templars and stood a chance of winning (or at least surviving the Templars in the city) and he suddenly freaks out, turns harvester and attacks us when there are no Templars around. If perhaps a group of Templars jumped in and he decided to do this, so he was allied to us while a harvester but then turned on us in a rage after they were dead, I could understand that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Slidell505 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

So DA2 was meant to teach us that all mages are evil, backstabbing murderers? Is that it?

That was the mainplot, everyone knows that. That's why the story was bad. They had to turn that six word sentence into a videogame.

No it is supposed to teach us just what happens when you pressure mages, like Meredith did. WE are only ever shown 1 Circle Mage (2 if you let Bethany go there), the rest are locked up in the Gallows for the duration of the game. The story tries to show us what happens to apostates when they are pressed into a corner, like they were in Kirkwall. It doesn't try to make you feel sympathy towards the individual mage, it tries to make you understand the plight of the mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

BigEvil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

I've got to agree with The Angry One, this was bad writing. As much as I love DA2 the end bosses were very disappointing in terms of story. Had a blast fighting them (well apart from my 2nd playthrough with bugged/slowmo rogue, damn it Izzy) but Orsino turning on a pro-mage Hawke was not good. Unexpected twists can be good, but this was not unexpected, it was just stupid. They could have built on the letter in the serial killer's lair, they could have spent some time developing Orsino to make it seem he was desperate and conflicted before giving in at his lowest ebb but they painted him as the reasonable, only sane man and then make him do something which seems so illogical that it almost seems out of character for him.

But that is just it. What he did in the Gallows was not illogical, well... It wasn't THAT kind of illogical. He knew he was doomed. He did one last act to take as many Templars as possible with him in death.

It was illogical though. I can understand a doomed last act to take them down with him, that could have made sense if they had made Orsino pull a heroic sacrifice. But it didn't need blood magic. It certainly didn't make sense that we'd just cleared out a large wave of Templars and stood a chance of winning (or at least surviving the Templars in the city) and he suddenly freaks out, turns harvester and attacks us when there are no Templars around. If perhaps a group of Templars jumped in and he decided to do this, so he was allied to us while a harvester but then turned on us in a rage after they were dead, I could understand that.

To become a Harvester he has to bind a Fade spirit within him, or it. It stands to reason that it was not Orsino we fought, but the Harvester.

[The Angry One]

If there ABSOLUTELY HAD TO be a Harvester, and Orsino ABSOLUTELY HAD TO be it, I would've written it like after a few waves of Templars, you get a massive assault.
Orsino tells Hawke he has one last thing he can do, ancient magic he studied but never intended to use. He tells Hawke to take the remaining mages and run for their lives because he isn't sure he can control it.
Orsino turns into the Harvester and massacres the Templars, then goes berserk and you go into a chase scene along a long passageway or something.

Again, that's if it was absolutely necesarry that this must happen. It would at least make Orsino look like less of a complete moron.

[Zjarcal]

The Angry One wrote...

If there ABSOLUTELY HAD TO be a Harvester, and Orsino ABSOLUTELY HAD TO be it, I would've written it like after a few waves of Templars, you get a massive assault.
Orsino tells Hawke he has one last thing he can do, ancient magic he studied but never intended to use. He tells Hawke to take the remaining mages and run for their lives because he isn't sure he can control it.
Orsino turns into the Harvester and massacres the Templars, then goes berserk and you go into a chase scene along a long passageway or something.

Again, that's if it was absolutely necesarry that this must happen. It would at least make Orsino look like less of a complete moron.

This would've been how I would've liked for it to be handled too. It was supposed to be a "desperate man grasping at straws" but it didn't feel that way in the game.

[BigEvil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
To become a Harvester he has to bind a Fade spirit within him, or it. It stands to reason that it was not Orsino we fought, but the Harvester.

I can see how that would work, but having not played GoA I don't know the specifics of the Harvesters. Still, it was Orsino who makes such a stupid decision after having previously been portrayed as a relatively calm and intelligent man. Anyone with the knowledge to do what he did should have known it would be the end in terms of intelligence and control, why didn't he at least wait until the Templars were making their move? We were still fighting Orsino, even if no longer in control of what he had become, he was the one to turn himself into the Harvester. If it had been forced on him by someone else, that might be a valid excuse, but he turned into a monster therefore he turned on Hawke and the others.

[sestrensaz]

This is the one thing I really didn't like about the ending too. I played a mage in my playthrough; sided with the mages and despite the fact we'd just survived a massive Templar onslaught, Orsino uses blood magic and turns into this ridiculous abomination for seemingly no reason at all.

I think the cut scene would have made more sense if it ended with the Templar's overrunning the Gallows and cornering Hawke and Orsino... then Orsino in desperation turns to blood magic and takes out the templars, but is then unable to control himself and so Hawke and co. have to put him down.

That simple change would resolve the issues I have with Orsino's decision to use blood magic, and would also tie into the overarching theme of the DA2 story which seems to be that in the worst of circumstances mages will always turn to demons if it's their only chance for survival.

[Chuvvy]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

So DA2 was meant to teach us that all mages are evil, backstabbing murderers? Is that it?

That was the mainplot, everyone knows that. That's why the story was bad. They had to turn that six word sentence into a videogame.

No it is supposed to teach us just what happens when you pressure mages, like Meredith did. WE are only ever shown 1 Circle Mage (2 if you let Bethany go there), the rest are locked up in the Gallows for the duration of the game. The story tries to show us what happens to apostates when they are pressed into a corner, like they were in Kirkwall. It doesn't try to make you feel sympathy towards the individual mage, it tries to make you understand the plight of the mages.

Yes I know most of the mages are in the circle. But most of the ones you meet are insane bloodmages or abominations. Which is a terrible idea. Look, if every Korean you met kicked you in the balls you'd have pretty negative veiw of their people as a whole. So even knowing that most mages are in the circle, every mage you meet being a bloodmage, is sort of casting them in a bad light.

[Xewaka]

The most likely reason is that they implemented Templar path first, ran out of time to implement a wholly different ending for Mage path, said "eh, eff it" and frankensteined both into a single end.

[Chuvvy]

Xewaka wrote...

The most likely reason is that they implemented Templar path first, ran out of time to implement a wholly different ending for Mage path, said "eh, eff it" and frankensteined both into a single end.

Ha, frakenstein, harvester, good one.


And yes I know Franenstein is the doctors name.