98 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

sestrensaz wrote...

This is the one thing I really didn't like about the ending too. I played a mage in my playthrough; sided with the mages and despite the fact we'd just survived a massive Templar onslaught, Orsino uses blood magic and turns into this ridiculous abomination for seemingly no reason at all.

I think the cut scene would have made more sense if it ended with the Templar's overrunning the Gallows and cornering Hawke and Orsino... then Orsino in desperation turns to blood magic and takes out the templars, but is then unable to control himself and so Hawke and co. have to put him down.

That simple change would resolve the issues I have with Orsino's decision to use blood magic, and would also tie into the overarching theme of the DA2 story which seems to be that in the worst of circumstances mages will always turn to demons if it's their only chance for survival.

Actually this reminds me of something else in the run up to the ending. The part where you eventually meet Grace, If youve sided with the Mages to that point, everyone during that quest line still accuses you of supporting Meredith and attacks you.

They definitely made it hard ot support mages in this game.

[Xewaka]

Slidell505 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The most likely reason is that they implemented Templar path first, ran out of time to implement a wholly different ending for Mage path, said "eh, eff it" and frankensteined both into a single end.

Ha, frakenstein, harvester, good one.
And yes I know Franenstein is the doctors name.

Actually, there was no pun intended. But good catch.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Slidell505 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

So DA2 was meant to teach us that all mages are evil, backstabbing murderers? Is that it?

That was the mainplot, everyone knows that. That's why the story was bad. They had to turn that six word sentence into a videogame.

No it is supposed to teach us just what happens when you pressure mages, like Meredith did. WE are only ever shown 1 Circle Mage (2 if you let Bethany go there), the rest are locked up in the Gallows for the duration of the game. The story tries to show us what happens to apostates when they are pressed into a corner, like they were in Kirkwall. It doesn't try to make you feel sympathy towards the individual mage, it tries to make you understand the plight of the mages.

Yes I know most of the mages are in the circle. But most of the ones you meet are insane bloodmages or abominations. Which is a terrible idea. Look, if every Korean you met kicked you in the balls you'd have pretty negative veiw of their people as a whole. So even knowing that most mages are in the circle, every mage you meet being a bloodmage, is sort of casting them in a bad light.

If every Korean I ever met kicked me in the balls, more or less unmotivated, ofcourse I would have some reservations towards Koreans. But I would still keep the knowledge there there are many Koreans, and they can't all be like that.... Hopefully... Also, remember that Kirkwall have a history of somehow compelling Mages to practice forbidden magic. It goes all the way back to Tevinter even.

[Annie_Dear]

sestrensaz wrote...

This is the one thing I really didn't like about the ending too. I played a mage in my playthrough; sided with the mages and despite the fact we'd just survived a massive Templar onslaught, Orsino uses blood magic and turns into this ridiculous abomination for seemingly no reason at all.
 

I think Orsino just loses it when he sees the amount of dead mages after the attack. There are always dead mages there when he asks "Why don't they just drown us as infants?".

This is the second time he's seen mages, the people he was supposed to protect, die. I always thought that he simply snaps: he can't protect the others, the templars are going to slaughter them all, why not give them what they want?

Still, I thought they could have handled the ending better

[Chuvvy]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When did they ever claim DA2 to be a morally grey story? The only thing I had not expected in DA2 was Meredith's insanity (and Leandra's death), so I guess that is why I don't take Orsino's madness so hard.

So DA2 was meant to teach us that all mages are evil, backstabbing murderers? Is that it?

That was the mainplot, everyone knows that. That's why the story was bad. They had to turn that six word sentence into a videogame.

No it is supposed to teach us just what happens when you pressure mages, like Meredith did. WE are only ever shown 1 Circle Mage (2 if you let Bethany go there), the rest are locked up in the Gallows for the duration of the game. The story tries to show us what happens to apostates when they are pressed into a corner, like they were in Kirkwall. It doesn't try to make you feel sympathy towards the individual mage, it tries to make you understand the plight of the mages.

Yes I know most of the mages are in the circle. But most of the ones you meet are insane bloodmages or abominations. Which is a terrible idea. Look, if every Korean you met kicked you in the balls you'd have pretty negative veiw of their people as a whole. So even knowing that most mages are in the circle, every mage you meet being a bloodmage, is sort of casting them in a bad light.

If every Korean I ever met kicked me in the balls, more or less unmotivated, ofcourse I would have some reservations towards Koreans. But I would still keep the knowledge there there are many Koreans, and they can't all be like that.... Hopefully... Also, remember that Kirkwall have a history of somehow compelling Mages to practice forbidden magic. It goes all the way back to Tevinter even.

I'd like to think Kang Ho-Song wouldn't kick me in the balls. I love that guy. More specifically I love his movies, And that plot point should be way more readily available. Not hidden in an unmarked side quest, also infromation about the Veil being incredibly thin which is why demons are everywhere in kirkwall is hidden in it. (That story is way more interesting than the games story.)

[The Angry One]

Annie_Dear wrote...

sestrensaz wrote...

This is the one thing I really didn't like about the ending too. I played a mage in my playthrough; sided with the mages and despite the fact we'd just survived a massive Templar onslaught, Orsino uses blood magic and turns into this ridiculous abomination for seemingly no reason at all.
 

I think Orsino just loses it when he sees the amount of dead mages after the attack. There are always dead mages there when he asks "Why don't they just drown us as infants?".

This is the second time he's seen mages, the people he was supposed to protect, die. I always thought that he simply snaps: he can't protect the others, the templars are going to slaughter them all, why not give them what they want?

Still, I thought they could have handled the ending better

Because with Hawke's support, he could still win. He could escape and spread his story all over Thedas, and rub it in the Templar's faces that he survived their assault as an innocent mage who didn't resort to blood magic or deals with demons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is part of the game story you know You just have to look for it

[The Angry One]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is part of the game story you know You just have to look for it

That kind of logic is what brought Final Fantasy 13 crashing down.
A game which, by the way, BioWare itself heavily criticised... only to follow in it's footsteps.

[sestrensaz]

Xewaka wrote...

The most likely reason is that they implemented Templar path first, ran out of time to implement a wholly different ending for Mage path, said "eh, eff it" and frankensteined both into a single end.

Nah I don't think that's the case.  The ending needs to be the same for both paths otherwise people playing DA3 are going to be playing wildly different games.  If the ending wasn't the same no matter what choice you make then the DA series would be getting to the point where the diversity of choices is becoming too complex to sustain cost/development-wise (and disc space-wise!).  To be perfectly honest, it's clearly already too complex for them to sustain since decisions from DAO are already being retconned for the sake of the storyline.  For example, Leiliana's appearances in DA2 even if you killed her in DAO.

A lot of people hold up DAO as a shining example of player choice done right, but ultimately DAO had the same ending no matter what you did beforehand.  Whatever choices you made, the Archdemon always dies and someone always ends up on the thone - Ferelden saved.  Same with DA2 - you either fight the mages or the templars, but the end result is the chantry loses control of the circles.

I think games which can take vastly different turns based on player decisions isn't feasble yet.  DA (and Mass Effect) offer a taster of changes based on player decisions, but it's really only an a cleverly constructed illusion of choice.  At present, the only time a serious divergence in storyline can be sustained is when a series is ending.  The final end, where decisions no longer have to be carried over.  Think, ME3 - I have little doubt there will be multiple and vastly different endings in that game.

One day soon, however, I suspect games will advance to the point where true player choice will impact the story in a significant way, offering the opportunity for 2 (or more!) substantially different endings to be properly represented in a sequel.

Modifié par sestrensaz, 12 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Annie_Dear]

The Angry One wrote...

Because with Hawke's support, he could still win. He could escape and spread his story all over Thedas, and rub it in the Templar's faces that he survived their assault as an innocent mage who didn't resort to blood magic or deals with demons.

I see your point and I agree, but at this point, Orsino isn't thinking straight. He simply snaps.

That's the only explanation I've got.

[The Angry One]

Annie_Dear wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Because with Hawke's support, he could still win. He could escape and spread his story all over Thedas, and rub it in the Templar's faces that he survived their assault as an innocent mage who didn't resort to blood magic or deals with demons.

I see your point and I agree, but at this point, Orsino isn't thinking straight. He simply snaps.

That's the only explanation I've got.

Yes you can reason it that way, but it's rather frustrating.
Before this I liked Orsino. What a waste of a character (I say the same for Meredith).

[BigEvil]

I really liked Orsino as well, right up until he was handed the idiot ball. I suppose with all the other mages dead someone had to carry it. *sigh*

[1Nosphorus1]

BigEvil wrote...

I really liked Orsino as well, right up until he was handed the idiot ball. I suppose with all the other mages dead someone had to carry it. *sigh*

If I remember rightly dont they refer to him as a hero during the end segment too? I really enjoyed his character up until that point, because that was the kind of character I'd like to of made, he's almost like my Elf Warden in personality and what I'd imagine him looking like after the racial appearence change.

What I never understood though, was why a harvester of all things? One of the most ridiculous tie in bosses I've ever seen, I actually facepalmed IRL when he transformed into that.

[The Angry One]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

What I never understood though, was why a harvester of all things? One of the most ridiculous tie in bosses I've ever seen, I actually facepalmed IRL when he transformed into that.

Because EA had the CGI people put it in the trailer, then forced BioWare to put it in game somewhere, anywhere. 
That's my theory anyway.

[EmperorSahlertz]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

I really liked Orsino as well, right up until he was handed the idiot ball. I suppose with all the other mages dead someone had to carry it. *sigh*

If I remember rightly dont they refer to him as a hero during the end segment too? I really enjoyed his character up until that point, because that was the kind of character I'd like to of made, he's almost like my Elf Warden in personality and what I'd imagine him looking like after the racial appearence change.

What I never understood though, was why a harvester of all things? One of the most ridiculous tie in bosses I've ever seen, I actually facepalmed IRL when he transformed into that.

There could be any number of explanations for that. After all a Tevinter Magister helped the Amgarrak Dwarves in their research, perhaps he lived in Kirkwall, and that is the secrets they were researching, which Quintin unlocked.

[1Nosphorus1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There could be any number of explanations for that. After all a Tevinter Magister helped the Amgarrak Dwarves in their research, perhaps he lived in Kirkwall, and that is the secrets they were researching, which Quintin unlocked.

If you understand what actually went into making a Harvester then you'd know that one that even looked remotely alike from a bleedin' spell is ridiculous.

- Crafted by dwarven smiths using the bodies of casteless dwarves.
- Attempting to emulate Caradin's research by using a construction and sealing a spirit in there (Although they used one from the fade).
- The harvester over time killed many dwarves that were in the thaig and many dwarven visitors to it, adding to itself over a long stretch of time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And how does that preclude what Orsino did? He collected a lot of dead bodies and merged them together to become the Harvester. The only thing we can't verify is wether or not he summoned a Fade spirit.

Remember the Dwarves had no luck in their experiments until they got help from a Magister.

[Alamar2078]

The Angry One wrote...
Because with Hawke's support, he could still win. He could escape and spread his story all over Thedas, and rub it in the Templar's faces that he survived their assault as an innocent mage who didn't resort to blood magic or deals with demons.

Yet another major character that underestimates Hawke to their [and their faction's] detriment.

I wonder if along with the whole "swept along with the current of change" if the "let's underestimate Hawke" was an intentional story/plot feature they wanted to stress

[Rifneno]

ITT: TAO preaches truth and wisdom.

I've always thought the best way they should've done it, if they just HAD to squeeze Orsino-Harvester into it, was to make the final battle a three-way dance.  Hawke & company vs. Meredith vs. Harvester.  Not entirely sure how they'd work the aggro issues so you couldn't just go make a sandwich while they kill each other, but I'm sure it could be reasonably done.  It would also eliminate the need for Meredith's stupid statue gimmick.

[1Nosphorus1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how does that preclude what Orsino did? He collected a lot of dead bodies and merged them together to become the Harvester. The only thing we can't verify is wether or not he summoned a Fade spirit.

Remember the Dwarves had no luck in their experiments until they got help from a Magister.

I think your missing the point here, the golem was constructed by dwarven smiths, and the magister was there to seal a spirit inside the construct.

He collected about 4 dead bodies in comparison to the many that the Dwarves had used, not only that but they had Caradin's research on golem construction aswel as being tempered smiths themselves, also the harvester had killed off adventurers that wandered into the thaig and over time reconfigured itself.

The harvester is an amalgamation of dwarven bodies (casteless/adventurers), Caradin's golem insight and a fade spirit, it's a creature unique to Amgorrak.

[EmperorSahlertz]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how does that preclude what Orsino did? He collected a lot of dead bodies and merged them together to become the Harvester. The only thing we can't verify is wether or not he summoned a Fade spirit.

Remember the Dwarves had no luck in their experiments until they got help from a Magister.

I think your missing the point here, the golem was constructed by dwarven smiths, and the magister was there to seal a spirit inside the construct.

He collected about 4 dead bodies in comparison to the many that the Dwarves had used, not only that but they had Caradin's research on golem construction aswel as being tempered smiths themselves, also the harvester had killed off adventurers that wandered into the thaig and over time reconfigured itself.

The harvester is an amalgamation of dwarven bodies (casteless/adventurers), Caradin's golem insight and a fade spirit, it's a creature unique to Amgorrak.

We don't really have any specifics. All it says is that this "Nerada" bound a Fade Spirit within a construct of flesh. That's it. No counting of amount of bodies, or how the construct was created. So how Orsino did it, does not go against anything stated in the lore. And evidently it is not unique to Amgarrak. When Nerada, went to "search" for the head of the golem, I think she just made a break for the surface with her research.

And the many bodies the dwarves had used, was probably more due to trial and error, than because a lot is needed in the ritual. There are also more than 4 mages in the chamber iirc. and they are all gone after his ritual, so more than 4 bodies (+Orsino himself) was used.

[Morroian]

Annie_Dear wrote...

I think Orsino just loses it when he sees the amount of dead mages after the attack. There are always dead mages there when he asks "Why don't they just drown us as infants?".

This is the second time he's seen mages, the people he was supposed to protect, die. I always thought that he simply snaps: he can't protect the others, the templars are going to slaughter them all, why not give them what they want?

IMHO Orsino didn't expect to lose control like he obviously did. He thought he'd become this powerful flesh golem who'd be better able to duke it out with the templars, instead he lost conscious control and attacked Hawke.

[The Baconer]

Morroian wrote...
IMHO Orsino didn't expect to lose control like he obviously did. He thought he'd become this powerful flesh golem who'd be better able to duke it out with the templars, instead he lost conscious control and attacked Hawke.

Apparently he still must have had some kind of thought or he wouldn't have created a barrier ironically defending all the templars from harm.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

Morroian wrote...
IMHO Orsino didn't expect to lose control like he obviously did. He thought he'd become this powerful flesh golem who'd be better able to duke it out with the templars, instead he lost conscious control and attacked Hawke.

Apparently he still must have had some kind of thought or he wouldn't have created a barrier ironically defending all the templars from harm.

You shouldn't put too much into that barrier, it was probably purely based there for gameplay reasons.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You shouldn't put too much into that barrier, it was probably purely based there for gameplay reasons.

You know, that reminds me of this one boss fight in DA II.

Modifié par The Baconer, 12 avril 2011 - 11:07 .