98 réponses à ce sujet

[Aganerral]

Shinian2 wrote...

sestrensaz wrote...

This is the one thing I really didn't like about the ending too. I played a mage in my playthrough; sided with the mages and despite the fact we'd just survived a massive Templar onslaught, Orsino uses blood magic and turns into this ridiculous abomination for seemingly no reason at all.

I think the cut scene would have made more sense if it ended with the Templar's overrunning the Gallows and cornering Hawke and Orsino... then Orsino in desperation turns to blood magic and takes out the templars, but is then unable to control himself and so Hawke and co. have to put him down.

That simple change would resolve the issues I have with Orsino's decision to use blood magic, and would also tie into the overarching theme of the DA2 story which seems to be that in the worst of circumstances mages will always turn to demons if it's their only chance for survival.

Actually this reminds me of something else in the run up to the ending. The part where you eventually meet Grace, If youve sided with the Mages to that point, everyone during that quest line still accuses you of supporting Meredith and attacks you.

They definitely made it hard ot support mages in this game.

This was actually much more annoying for me.  The Orsino thing was stupid too, but at least could make some arguments for why he'd do that.  But I was playing a mage Hawke, had supported the mages every chance I got and argued with Meredith constantly.  So the mages/templars opposing Meredith kidnap my sibling to try to force me to help them/punish me for helping Meredith?  And then I have to kill them all instead of trying to talk out of it?  Biggest WTF moment in the game to me.  I actually reloaded and tried that 3-4 times to see if I could avoid it somehow.

Act 3 makes much more sense as a templar supporter than a mage suporter.  Like someone earlier in the thread said, it feels like they wrote the templar side, then just shoehorned the mage side in.

EDIT: Should add that with all teh bloodmagery around, I did love the snarky Hawke response 'Just once I'd like to go a week without a crazy mage trying to kill me'  Forget which quest it was, but was definitely feeling the same thing...and that was as my mage-supporting Hawke!

Modifié par Aganerral, 12 avril 2011 - 11:30 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Annie_Dear wrote...

I think Orsino just loses it when he sees the amount of dead mages after the attack. There are always dead mages there when he asks "Why don't they just drown us as infants?".

Except, of course, there weren't actually any dead mages.  I managed to defeat the templar assault without anyone dying on our side the first time, so as soon as the cutscene started and there were dead mages all over the place it completely breaks the scene cause nobody died in the first place.  Where did they come from, how did they die?  They certainly didn't get past Hawke and my party.  Did they kill themselves while I was busy fighting templars?

The whole thing could have been done reasonably had Hawke and Orsino fought their way out into the courtyard with a whole bunch of mages, then somehow been forced back, maybe simply by having infinite templar spawns and Orsino yells at Hawke to retreat to room X.  Then it would make sense for him to get desperate.  The way it was actually presented though, was simply really poorly done.  We win, quite possibly with no losses at all, and suddenly there's bodies all over and Orsino is all desperate even though we had absolutely no problem with that last fight.

[The Angry One]

Yep, I think most of us can agree that the critical failure here is that there's no sense of desperation, so Orsino snapping comes right out of the blue.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes you can reason it that way, but it's rather frustrating.
Before this I liked Orsino. What a waste of a character (I say the same for Meredith).

I thought that way at first, but the more I thought about it and the more I examined the evidence, the more I was convinced that Orsino was on his way down that path from the beginning.

As First Enchanter, Orsino's responsibility is to the circle and to the mages who belong as part of the circle. As such, he's a terribly bad First Enchanter. His job is to protect the circle from Maleficarum, train them to use magic wisely, and be their leader. Orsino, though, is a weak person. He has a weak will, and he is cowardly by nature. He's far too concerned with what Meredith might think about the mages' actions than what he should be doing. Rather than actually trying to find and stop the bad mages who were causing all the problem and clearly establishing himself as an anti-blood magic, anti-abomination mage, Orsino was overly concerned with appearances. He was too afraid to associate with Thrask's cabal because he was concerned for how it would look. He allowed a known blood mage and murderer run free, and kept his presence a secret because he was afraid of how it would look if Quentin was discovered. 

As a group, the mages should be self-policing. The mages shold be finding the maleficarum and blood mages hiding among their number, and turning them over to the templars. The moment the mages and maleficarum banded together like a herd of frightened sheep was the moment their ability to self-regulate went out the window. If the mages can't be trusted to police themselves, then the templars have to step in.

[1Nosphorus1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We don't really have any specifics. All it says is that this "Nerada" bound a Fade Spirit within a construct of flesh. That's it. No counting of amount of bodies, or how the construct was created. So how Orsino did it, does not go against anything stated in the lore. And evidently it is not unique to Amgarrak. When Nerada, went to "search" for the head of the golem, I think she just made a break for the surface with her research.

And the many bodies the dwarves had used, was probably more due to trial and error, than because a lot is needed in the ritual. There are also more than 4 mages in the chamber iirc. and they are all gone after his ritual, so more than 4 bodies (+Orsino himself) was used.

Unless there is a post from one of the writers themselves I doubt there is any evidence suggesting that what Orsino did was possible within the constraints of the lore considering that it was evidently:

-Crafted by dwarven smiths based on Caradins research (Not exactly easy to follow and sure as hell isn't as simple as casting a spell to re-arrange some bodies).

-Thaig was sealed afterwards, Harvester changed+expanded on the body using the dead dwarven bodies, yet Orisino's harvester is an exact duplicate.

I wouldn't of minded if he had became a different kind of harvester, or even something similar in appearence but honestly it made no sense what so ever.
That and the whole battle when you side with the mage was completely farfetched anyway, suddenly all of the mages that fought with me in battle die even though they survived and he insists on becoming an abomination in a closed off area even though we were winning?

Koyasha wrote...
We win, quite possibly with no losses at all, and suddenly there's bodies all over and Orsino is all desperate even though we had absolutely no problem with that last fight.

Exactly the same problems that I had, suddenly they all just dropped dead after the battle and he starts moping about saying that they think all mages are blood mages so let's use blood magic.

Modifié par 1Nosphorus1, 12 avril 2011 - 11:49 .

[Rifneno]

Aganerral wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

sestrensaz wrote...

This is the one thing I really didn't like about the ending too. I played a mage in my playthrough; sided with the mages and despite the fact we'd just survived a massive Templar onslaught, Orsino uses blood magic and turns into this ridiculous abomination for seemingly no reason at all.

I think the cut scene would have made more sense if it ended with the Templar's overrunning the Gallows and cornering Hawke and Orsino... then Orsino in desperation turns to blood magic and takes out the templars, but is then unable to control himself and so Hawke and co. have to put him down.

That simple change would resolve the issues I have with Orsino's decision to use blood magic, and would also tie into the overarching theme of the DA2 story which seems to be that in the worst of circumstances mages will always turn to demons if it's their only chance for survival.

Actually this reminds me of something else in the run up to the ending. The part where you eventually meet Grace, If youve sided with the Mages to that point, everyone during that quest line still accuses you of supporting Meredith and attacks you.

They definitely made it hard ot support mages in this game.

This was actually much more annoying for me.  The Orsino thing was stupid too, but at least could make some arguments for why he'd do that.  But I was playing a mage Hawke, had supported the mages every chance I got and argued with Meredith constantly.  So the mages/templars opposing Meredith kidnap my sibling to try to force me to help them/punish me for helping Meredith?  And then I have to kill them all instead of trying to talk out of it?  Biggest WTF moment in the game to me.  I actually reloaded and tried that 3-4 times to see if I could avoid it somehow.

Act 3 makes much more sense as a templar supporter than a mage suporter.  Like someone earlier in the thread said, it feels like they wrote the templar side, then just shoehorned the mage side in.

EDIT: Should add that with all teh bloodmagery around, I did love the snarky Hawke response 'Just once I'd like to go a week without a crazy mage trying to kill me'  Forget which quest it was, but was definitely feeling the same thing...and that was as my mage-supporting Hawke!

The story with that quest is that the whole thing was a setup by Grace.  She was finding everyone opposed to Meredith and rallying them together, then spreading lies about Hawke being in league with Meredith so they'd turn on Hawke.  She pretty much used the dissent for Meredith as a weapon against Hawke in some ridiculously long term revenge scheme for killing Decimus.

Hrm.  You know I never thought about it, but I bet the Right of Annulment battle would never have happened if not for Grace.  There were tons of templars who would refuse to follow the order, but Grace got them killed trying to use them against Hawke.  So most of the templars left were Meredith's cronies or at least not sympathetic towards the mages.  Thanks so much, Grace.  <grumble>  Jackass...

[Mnemnosyne]

To the harvester argument: Unless there's some in-character evidence at some point indicating that Orsino was supposed to become an actual harvester, there is absolutely no reason to think the two are connected in any way.

This is a video game.  Making a completely unique model would cost money and time.  If they had that money and time they probably would have spent it doing something more useful and meaningful than making a unique model for one of the stupidest fights in the game.  A model was already available that pretty much fit the purposes.  Actually, I'll bet he was written to do that corpse-flesh thing because an appropriate model was already available, rather than have him do some other kind of magic-based wonkiness.  In fact, there's even a chance they originally had him written to turn into a demon or an abomination, but 'we've already had too many demon/abomination fights' was brought up so the harvester model was used instead.

So unless someone comes along and says 'yes, he's supposed to have turned into an actual harvester from Amgarrak' the only reasonable thing to assume is that it is a reused model.  Y'know, just like how every single abomination looks identical, or every Qunari looks identical, etc, etc.

[Rifneno]

Koyasha wrote...

To the harvester argument: Unless there's some in-character evidence at some point indicating that Orsino was supposed to become an actual harvester, there is absolutely no reason to think the two are connected in any way.

This is a video game.  Making a completely unique model would cost money and time.  If they had that money and time they probably would have spent it doing something more useful and meaningful than making a unique model for one of the stupidest fights in the game.  A model was already available that pretty much fit the purposes.  Actually, I'll bet he was written to do that corpse-flesh thing because an appropriate model was already available, rather than have him do some other kind of magic-based wonkiness.  In fact, there's even a chance they originally had him written to turn into a demon or an abomination, but 'we've already had too many demon/abomination fights' was brought up so the harvester model was used instead.

So unless someone comes along and says 'yes, he's supposed to have turned into an actual harvester from Amgarrak' the only reasonable thing to assume is that it is a reused model.  Y'know, just like how every single abomination looks identical, or every Qunari looks identical, etc, etc.

Except for two things.  First, the original Harvester was apparently deserving of a unique model despite the fact he was a fairly pointless boss in a DLC rather than a character so important to the main game that his face is one of the two shown at intro (along with Meredith of course).  Second and more importantly, if it was a reused model there'd be no need for the detachable head mechanic.  That skittering head thing is unique to the Harvester, it doesn't come standard on flesh golems.

[Morroian]

Koyasha wrote...

This is a video game.  Making a completely unique model would cost money and time.  If they had that money and time they probably would have spent it doing something more useful and meaningful than making a unique model for one of the stupidest fights in the game.  A model was already available that pretty much fit the purposes.  Actually, I'll bet he was written to do that corpse-flesh thing because an appropriate model was already available, rather than have him do some other kind of magic-based wonkiness.  In fact, there's even a chance they originally had him written to turn into a demon or an abomination, but 'we've already had too many demon/abomination fights' was brought up so the harvester model was used instead.

The devs have implied that the harvester, and the vertarrel in WH, were used in those DLC as an intro for them for DA2. IOW they were actually created for DA2.

There are threads going back to tevinter blood magic linking both Amgarrak and Orsino, so there is a connection.

[sestrensaz]

Koyasha wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

I think Orsino just loses it when he sees the amount of dead mages after the attack. There are always dead mages there when he asks "Why don't they just drown us as infants?".

Except, of course, there weren't actually any dead mages.  I managed to defeat the templar assault without anyone dying on our side the first time, so as soon as the cutscene started and there were dead mages all over the place it completely breaks the scene cause nobody died in the first place.  Where did they come from, how did they die?  They certainly didn't get past Hawke and my party.  Did they kill themselves while I was busy fighting templars?

The whole thing could have been done reasonably had Hawke and Orsino fought their way out into the courtyard with a whole bunch of mages, then somehow been forced back, maybe simply by having infinite templar spawns and Orsino yells at Hawke to retreat to room X.  Then it would make sense for him to get desperate.  The way it was actually presented though, was simply really poorly done.  We win, quite possibly with no losses at all, and suddenly there's bodies all over and Orsino is all desperate even though we had absolutely no problem with that last fight.

Maybe I'm remembering the wrong scene here, but isn't there a cut scene showing the Templars killing all the mages in that fight?

Not that I see that as good enough reason for Orsino to go bat-poop insane... but still, there was a scene showing the poor circle mages using their crappy normal magic which is apparently completely weak and useless compared to blood magic!  Those mages clearly didn't put their attribute points in the right place. 

Modifié par sestrensaz, 13 avril 2011 - 02:01 .

[Telone]

Rifneno wrote...

nerdage wrote...

Elessara wrote...

Also at the end if you support the mages, Orsino will state that he thought Quentin's research was too evil and dangerous but that now he saw it was the only way - this is, of course, right before he flips out and turns into a harvester.

I think if you side with the templars you actually get to react to his confession, if you side with the mages it's as though Hawke's distracted while he's speeking.

Hawke: "Don't worry, Orsino, we'll make it through thi.... Hmm, this is a really tall room.."
....
Hawke: "I wonder how they built the roof so high up.."
Orsino: "Well I'll show them blood magic!!"
*havester abomination*
Hawke: "Uhh, sorry did I miss something there?"

That sums it up far too well.  

It's sad... this game reminds me of Final Fantasy VI in that it started off sooo well and just slowly went downhill until at the end you're just trying to pinpoint the exact moment that the writers started getting kickbacks from a competing game company.  Act I was great.  Act II was okay.  Act III was a literary catastrophe.

I agree. Act III felt rushed. Must have ran out of time.

[BigEvil]

sestrensaz wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

I think Orsino just loses it when he sees the amount of dead mages after the attack. There are always dead mages there when he asks "Why don't they just drown us as infants?".

Except, of course, there weren't actually any dead mages.  I managed to defeat the templar assault without anyone dying on our side the first time, so as soon as the cutscene started and there were dead mages all over the place it completely breaks the scene cause nobody died in the first place.  Where did they come from, how did they die?  They certainly didn't get past Hawke and my party.  Did they kill themselves while I was busy fighting templars?

The whole thing could have been done reasonably had Hawke and Orsino fought their way out into the courtyard with a whole bunch of mages, then somehow been forced back, maybe simply by having infinite templar spawns and Orsino yells at Hawke to retreat to room X.  Then it would make sense for him to get desperate.  The way it was actually presented though, was simply really poorly done.  We win, quite possibly with no losses at all, and suddenly there's bodies all over and Orsino is all desperate even though we had absolutely no problem with that last fight.

Maybe I'm remembering the wrong scene here, but isn't there a cut scene showing the Templars killing all the mages in that fight?

Not that I see that as good enough reason for Orsino to go bat-poop insane... but still, there was a scene showing the poor circle mages using their crappy normal magic which is apparently completely weak and useless compared to blood magic!  Those mages clearly didn't put their attribute points in the right place. 

No, that's at the very beginning of the Gallows section, where the Templars storm the lobby (I suppose) of the building. The section being discussed is just after we've fought off a wave of Templars in a small room with a portcullis at the front and some other bars all around. It's the same room where pro-mage Hawke speaks to their companions and any mages like Alain or the De Launcet lad before saying to Orsino they're ready for the fight (at which point the wave of Templars attack).

[sestrensaz]

Uh, I know what scene everyone is referring to... @_@

I was just unsure when the Templar/Mage massacre cut scene occurred.

[Greta13]

I'd just like to say that when my Mage Hawke (the fact the she was a mage is unimportant) sided with the Templars and confronted Orsino everything made perfect sense to me (Orsino was all pleased about helping my mothers murderer, then went F****** crazy) it all flowed well and I have no complaints.

I have yet to side with the mages though so...yah.

[BigEvil]

sestrensaz wrote...

Uh, I know what scene everyone is referring to... @_@

I was just unsure when the Templar/Mage massacre cut scene occurred.

Hence why I pointed out when that scene occurred in relation to the scene everyone is referring to.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually a wave of Templars do show up, just prior to Orsino turning into a Harvester.

[BigEvil]

And they stand there doing nothing overly threatening, do not kill any mages (nor are any killed in other cutscenes in that room) and when the boss fight starts they're trapped behind a magic barrier. It still makes no sense, especially since Hawke and co take out a much larger wave of attacking Templars with no casualties.

[Fruit of the Doom]

The Angry One wrote...

Yep, I think most of us can agree that the critical failure here is that there's no sense of desperation, so Orsino snapping comes right out of the blue.

This.

In my first playthrough, none of the mages died.  I never let a single Templar make it to the end of the hallway.

They could have made it a "Bad End" scenario that occurs if you let too many mages die.  Then at least it would have felt little less ridiculous.  Though it would still be ridiculous.

[Fruit of the Doom]

Greta13 wrote...

I'd just like to say that when my Mage Hawke (the fact the she was a mage is unimportant) sided with the Templars and confronted Orsino everything made perfect sense to me (Orsino was all pleased about helping my mothers murderer, then went F****** crazy) it all flowed well and I have no complaints.

I have yet to side with the mages though so...yah.

In the mage version, Orsino never goes crazy.  He remains perfectly rational and sympathetic until he just suddenly slits his wrists and becomes a Harvester.  His only reference to Quentin is muttering, "I told Quentin to end his research, it was too dangerous... too evil..."

He then says, "If Meredith wants blood magic, I'll give her blood magic." and goes emoharvester.

It comes completely out of nowhere, especially after his very emotional speech beforehand as he laments his failure to protect the mages and children in the tower.

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 14 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[thegrimfandango]

I have to confess, I didn't like the Orsino boss, even though I havn't played GOA. The skittering head just made me thing 'Someone's been watching The Thing'.

[Rifneno]

thegrimfandango wrote...

I have to confess, I didn't like the Orsino boss, even though I havn't played GOA. The skittering head just made me thing 'Someone's been watching The Thing'.

Every type of monster has been thought of by some other storyteller at some point.  If you think some design is new, it's because you just haven't seen or heard whatever it was in before.  There is no "new" anymore.  Sad but true.

[thegrimfandango]

Rifneno wrote...

thegrimfandango wrote...

I have to confess, I didn't like the Orsino boss, even though I havn't played GOA. The skittering head just made me thing 'Someone's been watching The Thing'.

Every type of monster has been thought of by some other storyteller at some point.  If you think some design is new, it's because you just haven't seen or heard whatever it was in before.  There is no "new" anymore.  Sad but true.

Ah, I'm aware there's no new stories anymore. It's mainly that I watched the Thing when much younger and I REALLY didn't like the skittering head thing in that, seeing it in Dragon Age was an unpleasant surprise

[Annarl]

BigEvil wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So it is bad writing because a character got you completely fooled? Should all characters always put out their whole lifestory, and long time goals the first time you meet them? Should all mages immediately admit to be blood amges? I think the main reason a lot of people dislike the ending, is because they feel betrayed. It is a lot more satisfying to side with the Templars the first time, and just get your suspicions of Orsino confirmed.

It's bad writing when a character has no reason to do what they do.
It's bad writing for the entire game to portray mages as evil blood magic abusing serial killing scum and have the one remaining reasonable mage turn into a monster for giggles.

nah it's good writing because it was unexpected

I've got to agree with The Angry One, this was bad writing. As much as I love DA2 the end bosses were very disappointing in terms of story. Had a blast fighting them (well apart from my 2nd playthrough with bugged/slowmo rogue, damn it Izzy) but Orsino turning on a pro-mage Hawke was not good. Unexpected twists can be good, but this was not unexpected, it was just stupid. They could have built on the letter in the serial killer's lair, they could have spent some time developing Orsino to make it seem he was desperate and conflicted before giving in at his lowest ebb but they painted him as the reasonable, only sane man and then make him do something which seems so illogical that it almost seems out of character for him.

I agree with you.  As much as I enjoyed the end battles.  The Orsino angle should have been better developed since they chose to have him explode into a Harvester.  It feels like a silly reason for a boss fight. This part of the story seemed underwritten.   But I could say that about a lot of things in this game.

[88mphSlayer]

screw orsino, i dislike that guy more than meredith...