355 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Monica83 wrote...

The best between way for me is have a VO character with full written answers... This can make happy OldSchool Rpg lovers like me or The Voiced char lover to.. I can't imagine a better way to fix it...What about that?

Voiced char+Dialog whell+full written answer+tone of them for me this is the best way to make mhhhhhh almost all happy

It for me if going the VO route has to have various choices in VO because like I said earlier I put myself in the world, universe and situations via the CC in a RPG that is my 'role' playing. So Yes I agree full text so we know what we are going to say before we say it and VO if have choices then yes I'm ok with that as long as there are enough choices to get close to my actual voice but ideally I prefer no voice if that isn't possible.

Given I want multiple race and backgrounds in DA3 this might just be too much work for Bioware and therefore given the choice between those two options I pick race/backgrounds over VO everytime. Even ME had background selection though was only one main character and had VO but I still want choice of race as well as background.

The irony of it even those who love VO the fact is in order to pick the choices they have to read the choices (all reading is voiced in your head by your own voice this cannot be stopped and without fail happens, the voice is your own unless your suffering from sort of multiple personality), then they hear 'someone else' saying out loud there choices in the screen.

I however do not like the UI of the wheel it really does not fit in with a fantasy (sword and spell) style RPG, in ME yes fits perfectly because it is a 'sci fi' style wheel... But DA no not even in the slightest. Change it's style it's font and/or it's colours to match the sword and spell fantasy world DA inhabits not imprint ME interface styling on DA.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 avril 2011 - 12:24 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

all reading is voiced in your head by your own voice this cannot be stopped and without fail happens

This isn't actually trrue.  Not all people subvocalise when they read.

Any design that lets us play the same way we used to be able to play - to know with certainty what our character is going to say, and be able to decide for ourselves how that line is uttered - would be fine by me.

But so far, the only design I've seen that allows it is a silent PC.  So any voiced PC needs to be optional, else the game will fail in my eyes.

[Reika24]

myztikrice wrote...

I think Luke said they were considering a box that pop-upped when you hover'd over a line for a certain amount of time that would show you the full sentence. I think this is a great idea, but it seemed like it was only a 'well maybe... *forget about it in a week*' type of idea instead of a top priority.

This idea would be better if they got rid of the waiting while hovering over a line and instead went with Sith Grey Warden's idea of pressing a button to bring up the pop-up box instead. Then those of us who like to know what our character is going to say before they say it don't have to spend an eternity in converations and those who like to be surprised won't be spoiled because they took to long to make a choice.

[Embargoed]

samtoshan wrote...

5ubzer0 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I can understain wanting voiced NPCs...but no reading? No text?

That's like an insult to intellect and good sense.

Claiming that you don't know what you should do and that games are vauge, because you can't be arsed to READ. The lazyness and poor education of today astounds me...

The elitism found in this thread astounds me. Clearly, there can only be two explanations, why people may prefer a fully voiced protagonist, right?

a) they are console gamers
they are intellectually inferior

Well, I don't consider gaming an intellectual pursuit. Now contrary to popular opinion, you can enjoy a voiced player character, be highly educated and read books in your free time. It's amazing, I know!

Personally, none of the dialogue choices in DA came close to what I wanted my heroine to say. I found that more immersion breaking than the dialogue wheel. At least, with Hawke you never knew what he/she was going to say.

yes but with hawke you can here his/her to fu.cking  much its hard to even think when you here there voices lets not forget no elfs or no drawfs to back it up GAY GAME

You aren't really helping your argument. Try again, and this time, try to not sound like an idiot.

Otherwise, I can concede the fact that some people may enjoy a non-voiced protagonist for roleplay reasons. I don't seem to understand this concept of roleplaying considering I always assumed roleplaying didn't require me to sit and pretend that anyone in the game gave a **** about what I was saying, but alas, this is out of my hands.

I'm playing origins right now, and watching people react to the choices I pick doesn't stop being jarring. I guess I'd like a silent protagonist more if EVERYONE didn't talk. At least then I wouldn't have to plow through these jarring conversations and pretend like the main character matters to the story. A silent medium makes the playing field a lot more even, I think. It makes it so much easier to use a silent protagonist without him or her suddenly seeming like a cardboard-cutout in a world full of life. 

[Gatt9]

Embargoed wrote...

samtoshan wrote...

5ubzer0 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I can understain wanting voiced NPCs...but no reading? No text?

That's like an insult to intellect and good sense.

Claiming that you don't know what you should do and that games are vauge, because you can't be arsed to READ. The lazyness and poor education of today astounds me...

The elitism found in this thread astounds me. Clearly, there can only be two explanations, why people may prefer a fully voiced protagonist, right?

a) they are console gamers
they are intellectually inferior

Well, I don't consider gaming an intellectual pursuit. Now contrary to popular opinion, you can enjoy a voiced player character, be highly educated and read books in your free time. It's amazing, I know!

Personally, none of the dialogue choices in DA came close to what I wanted my heroine to say. I found that more immersion breaking than the dialogue wheel. At least, with Hawke you never knew what he/she was going to say.

yes but with hawke you can here his/her to fu.cking  much its hard to even think when you here there voices lets not forget no elfs or no drawfs to back it up GAY GAME

You aren't really helping your argument. Try again, and this time, try to not sound like an idiot.

Otherwise, I can concede the fact that some people may enjoy a non-voiced protagonist for roleplay reasons. I don't seem to understand this concept of roleplaying considering I always assumed roleplaying didn't require me to sit and pretend that anyone in the game gave a **** about what I was saying, but alas, this is out of my hands.

I'm playing origins right now, and watching people react to the choices I pick doesn't stop being jarring. I guess I'd like a silent protagonist more if EVERYONE didn't talk. At least then I wouldn't have to plow through these jarring conversations and pretend like the main character matters to the story. A silent medium makes the playing field a lot more even, I think. It makes it so much easier to use a silent protagonist without him or her suddenly seeming like a cardboard-cutout in a world full of life. 

The major issue I have with the concept is it very severely limits the game's ability to account for the Character I've created.

Take Fallout/Fallout 2 for example:  If I create an idiot,  the entire game reacts to him like he's an idiot,  and the dialogue refelcts the fact that he's an idiot.  If I create a genius,  again,  the game reflects that in his dialogue options.

Now take any given Voiced game:  The game won't account for what kind of intelligence you've given your character,  because to voice an idiot requires you to essentially duplicate the entire game's dialogue.  A genius could require you to triplicate a fair portion of it on top of that.  They're not going to spend the money to do it.

So basically,  Voiced characters severely reduce the amount of options we have for the end experience we get.  The tradeoff really doesn't yield anything meaningfull in at least some cases (Recognizing that in some games,  a voiced pre-envisioned character is necessary for a high-quality story).  In some cases,  it exists only so some number of people don't have to read,  which makes me seriously question why they're playing RPGs?  Because they just picked one of the most math/reading intensive genres of gaming possible. 

As far as the earlier poster and his "Elitism" comments go,  you need to realize that alot of people who complain about the lack of voice are doing so because they do not want to read.  Developers have been commenting on hearing "I don't wanna read" complaints for at least 13 years,  I recall both J.E.Sawyer and a Bioware guy talking about that problem during BG2 and Icewind Dale's development cycles.

So it's not "Elitism",  it's being *really* tired of losing features and gameplay in favor of a group of people who are complaining just because they don't want to be bothered reading.  Contrast the OP with the post I quoted here,  the OP's screaming he shouldn't have to read because it's "Old!!!",  the person I've quoted here is expressing he feels that (at least sometimes) he finds silent protagnists to yield jarring gameplay.  The latter is a worthy topic of discussion,  the former?  The OP is (IMO) offensive.

[5ubzer0]

DanaScu wrote...

Two minutes? I never took speed reading in school, and unless it was a subject that really required care, like Chaucer in Middle English, or Milton, I can read most things a lot faster than that. Very few games have dialogue on the level of the Canterbury Tales or Paradise Lost.

When I speak with someone in RL I don't blurt out every word that passes through my mind. Taking *a few seconds* to consider what I'm going to say feels very natural. Taking a few seconds to read replies feels the same. Of course, I'm not usually playing as psycho bi-polar Shepard; when I want to end an interview, knowing in advance that Shepard will say "Enough. I'm finished with you." or haul off and break the reporter's jaw when the option on the wheel o'hints says "This interview is over." matters to me. Saves time over saving before each conversation and reloading when the wheel o'hints gives me a "why the ninth level of Cania did she say *that*?" moment.

Perhaps the school systems should go back to the "Reading is Fundamental" campaign? Although I was in school long before that came around.

Yes, by all means, please do imply that I am a slow reader or just intellectually inferior. Clearly, taking two minutes to think through various dialogue options and the anticipated responses, is too much. I am not sure how I manage to dress myself in the morning. 

You may want to learn about a wonderful process called mindfulness. It teaches you to pay full attention to the other person when you communicate, instead of being preoccupied with thoughts about what to say next. Then again, because I prefer the dialogue wheel, my communication skills must be lacking. Of course, I blurt out my thoughts unfiltered, every other minute.

I have no idea why you would call Shepard's renegade actions "psycho bi-polar." Considering how many people struggle with mental health issues, I find your comment very disrespectful. Why not take that speed reading class and pick up a few books about tolerance, mindfulness, and why arrogance seldom helps to prove your point?

[Gatt9]

5ubzer0 wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

Two minutes? I never took speed reading in school, and unless it was a subject that really required care, like Chaucer in Middle English, or Milton, I can read most things a lot faster than that. Very few games have dialogue on the level of the Canterbury Tales or Paradise Lost.

When I speak with someone in RL I don't blurt out every word that passes through my mind. Taking *a few seconds* to consider what I'm going to say feels very natural. Taking a few seconds to read replies feels the same. Of course, I'm not usually playing as psycho bi-polar Shepard; when I want to end an interview, knowing in advance that Shepard will say "Enough. I'm finished with you." or haul off and break the reporter's jaw when the option on the wheel o'hints says "This interview is over." matters to me. Saves time over saving before each conversation and reloading when the wheel o'hints gives me a "why the ninth level of Cania did she say *that*?" moment.

Perhaps the school systems should go back to the "Reading is Fundamental" campaign? Although I was in school long before that came around.

Yes, by all means, please do imply that I am a slow reader or just intellectually inferior. Clearly, taking two minutes to think through various dialogue options and the anticipated responses, is too much. I am not sure how I manage to dress myself in the morning. 

You may want to learn about a wonderful process called mindfulness. It teaches you to pay full attention to the other person when you communicate, instead of being preoccupied with thoughts about what to say next. Then again, because I prefer the dialogue wheel, my communication skills must be lacking. Of course, I blurt out my thoughts unfiltered, every other minute.

I have no idea why you would call Shepard's renegade actions "psycho bi-polar." Considering how many people struggle with mental health issues, I find your comment very disrespectful. Why not take that speed reading class and pick up a few books about tolerance, mindfulness, and why arrogance seldom helps to prove your point?

I think maybe you took his response a bit too personally,  I didn't get the same impression I think you did out of that,  although I can see how his closing comment could easily be read differently.

What I took out of it is that he doesn't appriciate Bioware's tendency for the Wheel to give you the impression that you'll say/do one thing,  and then haul off with something completely different,  which I think our conversation here illustrates.  You read his whole sentences,  and apparently received a different message than I did,  so condensing it to a few words would likely be exponentially worse.

His closing comment,  I'm reading as he feels "That part of the problem with this topic in general is that the schools no longer focus on reading,  and a sizeable portion of the younger generations have a disturbing aversion to it".  Which from my experience,  is pretty spot on,  but that's a whole different topic.

As far as his closing comment,  is it really that far out of line?  Shephard does demonstrate psychotic tendencies,  punching a female reporter for asking a question he disliked?  Evil responses are sometimes "No,  go away" and sometimes "I'LL KILL YOU WITH A PAPERCLIP!!!!",  from a person in a command position with diplomatic responsibliities?  It's pretty game-breaking actually,  IRL a person who behaved like that would be back in civilian life in minutes,  no matter his skill.  I'm not throwing a label on it,  but that's definitely the behaivior one would expect from certain psych disorders (And Bi-polar isn't actually the one characterized by that kind of behavior,  it's a different one).

In closing,  his contention about the Wheel is validated by the fact that you and I both received different messages from the same full sentences,  and removing alot of the information in his post would make it alot worse.  Further,  I don't like this slippery slope now that Bioware's talking about giving icons to everything,  cause that puts us about an inch away from no longer having dialogue choices and just selecting mood-icons,  which really is just game-killing in an RPG.

[neppakyo]

samtoshan wrote...
whats wrong?someones asshurt cuz i owned there ****buddy friend but u dont get my point i dont like hawks voice i hate it infact i hate the whole game the dude i replied 2 said with hawke they can know what hes saying so im getting the sense hes defening hawke so yeah im just saying the game is GAY cuz u can only play as a human can only saty in 1 ****ING city and your choices r short now do u get me crack ass ****got

Sorry dear, is your primary language not english? If your main tongue isn't english, I apologize for the coming remarks;

Please structure your sentences properly, use grammar and spelling. Also, not sounding like a retard would help.

[We Tigers]

Monica83 wrote...

The best between way for me is have a VO character with full written answers... This can make happy OldSchool Rpg lovers like me or The Voiced char lover to.. I can't imagine a better way to fix it...What about that?

Voiced char+Dialog whell+full written answer+tone of them for me this is the best way to make mhhhhhh almost all happy

This seems a little excessive to me.  If you're having the full text before the VO, why bother with the VO?  If you give me the text like in Fallout or DA:O, I don't need to wait 5-10 seconds to hear the line spoken every time I make a dialogue choice.  If you're going to have a good VO, I think it's got to be in the paraphrase model, so there's actually some interest and intrigue in what Hawke exactly says.  Otherwise a huge portion of your game is just waiting for something about which you already know all the details, again and again.

It's one or the other for me.  I generally prefer voiced characters for anything that is a third-person game with voiced NPCs (first-person games are fine with non-voiced), but I can go the other way when a game is as good as Origins, and there isn't needless repetition between text and vocal performance.

[TJSolo]

This seems a little excessive to me. If you're having the full text before the VO, why bother with the VO? If you give me the text like in Fallout or DA:O, I don't need to wait 5-10 seconds to hear the line spoken every time I make a dialogue choice. If you're going to have a good VO, I think it's got to be in the paraphrase model, so there's actually some interest and intrigue in what Hawke exactly says. Otherwise a huge portion of your game is just waiting for something about which you already know all the details, again and again.

I thought the point of options during dialogues were to have the player make decisions, hopefully informed ones, on what their character will do or say and then to see how the choice plays out. The paraphrase model fails when what is said by the character and picked by the player clash because of different intentions. I see the confusion, some people want to watch a movie not RP in a video game. Having unknown intent and intrigue is great for non-interactive mediums like movies, TV shows, Stand-up acts, and other examples where the player is not supposed to be the one picking the lines in their entirety.

[We Tigers]

And if that's how you feel, then fine, you want full text. Still no point in having text + voiceover.

[CARL_DF90]

Me personally? Loved the fact that we had a fully voiced main character. I have always hated the silent main character thing myself.

[TJSolo]

We Tigers wrote...

And if that's how you feel, then fine, you want full text. Still no point in having text + voiceover.

The point would be to fully disclose the content of their character's reply options and to have their character say* those lines consistently. Hell either partial disclosure(ME1) or tone only(Alpha Protocol) replies would be better then the way paraphrasing was generally done in DA2.

[CARL_DF90]

Maybe "hate" is getting the wrong idea across. I've always preferred a fully voiced character because I would like to hear and see this character I have spent so much time and effort invested in.

[wowpwnslol]

RPG's being made for consoles has ruined RPG gaming. Every dumb "innovation" is there because a bunch of ADD kids can't be bothered to read.

Why am I not surprised that the topic starter is a console user?

[Pandaman102]

http://www.escapistm...Voice-vs-Choice

But here is the kicker: Watch anyone play these fully-voiced RPG's, and you'll see they click right through the voice acting. People can read a lot faster than they can talk, and so players end up hearing just the first six words of every sentence. Unless the actor is Patrick Stewart or Liam Neeson, people aren't going to sit still while an NPC rattles on. We've lost so much in the way of freedom and depth, and in return we've gained voice acting that everyone is in a hurry to skip.

Can't say it any better than that article.

I remember around 2000~2002 there was a game developer going on about how they were working on a high quality text-to-voice program that promised to drastically reduce the space taken up by sound files while allowing for even greater variety of voices; until that promise is finally delivered, I would much rather have text boxes and plenty of choices than plenty of voices and fewer choices in my RPGs.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 14 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[Fishy]

 Admit this conversation would have been completly different with a TPV silent protagonist  doing weird expression(Think KOTOR and DA:O) rather than this..

Now add a VoiceOver to vopy-cat DA2.
I prefeer this ... FPS style conversation so i can stare ewww ... her eyes.

I want TPV with FPS conversation.. So i don't have to see my character doing retarded smirk and  lsitening to annoying VO.

Modifié par Suprez30, 14 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[UltiPup]

Here is a compromise. Keep voices in. When someone who wants a silent protagonist makes a dialogue option, they can stick their fingers in their ears and scream "la la la" until the voice clip finishes.

[Eterna]

Merced652 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Mecher3k wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Mecher3k wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I'm unable to grasp why people would want a silent, emotionless character.

I mean the Warden was pretty much just a statue.

 Because we have a fully capable mind of our own that allows us to add our character to him/her?

 Right, but that still exists in Dragon Age 2.

Wrong.

 Really? I could choose if my Hawke was Stern, diplomatic or Sarcastic/charming.

 This is placing a personality upon my character.

OH MAN SO MANY RP OPTIONS I .. I.. OMG THATS AMAZING.

Sorry, but that pretty much indicates you've never actually even attempted to RP a character in your life. But i suppose thats who bloware wants to play their games now. 

 Because your warden had so many options as well.

[Pandaman102]

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

[Eterna]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

[DA2 is Awsum]

Eterna5 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

You mean the franchise that started as a throwback to another, more famous and infinitely better, rpg called BG2? Who knew!