355 réponses à ce sujet

[Pandaman102]

Eterna5 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

Fair 'nuff

[Eterna]

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

You mean the franchise that started as a throwback to another, more famous and infinitely better, rpg called BG2? Who knew! 

 Opnions, I hear people have them.

[DA2 is Awsum]

Eterna5 wrote...

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

You mean the franchise that started as a throwback to another, more famous and infinitely better, rpg called BG2? Who knew! 

 Opnions, I hear people have them.

Which is funny considering it was that guys opinion that you were trying to invalidate with your own. What? You think you're better than him? 

[Eterna]

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

You mean the franchise that started as a throwback to another, more famous and infinitely better, rpg called BG2? Who knew! 

 Opnions, I hear people have them.

Which is funny considering it was that guys opinion that you were trying to invalidate with your own. What? You think you're better than him? 

 Not really, no.

I was just correcting something that was wrong.

Modifié par Eterna5, 14 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[mdugger12]

wowpwnslol wrote...

RPG's being made for consoles has ruined RPG gaming. Every dumb "innovation" is there because a bunch of ADD kids can't be bothered to read.

Why am I not surprised that the topic starter is a console user?

How insightful. Just curious, when did you decide you were against innovation? Why not just stick to pen and paper? I'm seeing a lot of arguments to support letting gaming stagnate to fit the comfort level of a few "hardcore old school" fans but I don't understand why you you're drawn to this medium for your Role playing fix. Because you're not concerned with how good a story is, or characters, or the world created for your enjoyment. Bust out the pen and paper if thats the experience you're looking for but whats the point of anybody attacking video game developers for using the resources they have available.

Modifié par mdugger12, 14 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[DA2 is Awsum]

Eterna5 wrote...

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

DA2 is Awsum wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
 Because your warden had so many options as well.

DA:O isn't the only other RPG in existence, you realize.

 Right, but this is the Dragon Age forums and thus other RPG's are not worth mentioning.

You mean the franchise that started as a throwback to another, more famous and infinitely better, rpg called BG2? Who knew! 

 Opnions, I hear people have them.

Which is funny considering it was that guys opinion that you were trying to invalidate with your own. What? You think you're better than him? 

 Not really, no.

I was just correcting something that was wrong.

Oh? How was he wrong? Can i tell you "you're wrong" with no validation and you accept it like a good little sheep? baaaaa'aaaah.

[wowpwnslol]

mdugger12 wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

RPG's being made for consoles has ruined RPG gaming. Every dumb "innovation" is there because a bunch of ADD kids can't be bothered to read.

Why am I not surprised that the topic starter is a console user?

How insightful. Just curious, when did you decide you were against innovation? Why not just stick to pen and paper? I'm seeing a lot of arguments to support letting gaming stagnate to fit the comfort level of a few "hardcore old school" fans but I don't understand why you you're drawn to this medium for your Role playing fix. Because you're not concerned with how good a story is, or characters, or the world created for your enjoyment. Bust out the pen and paper if thats the experience you're looking but whats the point of anybody attacking video game developers for using the resources they have available.

Because it's not really innovation, thus the quotation marks. Gaming is not at the level where there can be a voiced main character without significant sacrifice in dialogue options due to resource constraints a company faces when they choose to go down that path.

I would not mind voiced character at all - as long as the same depth is retained in conversations. If you played NWN2, there was a 30 minute trial scene with TONS of complex dialogue options based on your previous actions (or inactions) and skill based conversation checks etc.  Can D2 achieve the same? No. The convos consist one one liners where devs have to hold our hand telling us what is "good/diplomatic", sarcastic and "evil/aggressive.

Currently, voiced main character is actually a step backwards, as we have none of the complexity with the "dialogue wheel" featuring contracted responses, where your character doesn't even say what you want half the time. It really should have been confined to action/platform shooters with RPG elements like ME series, where RPing is somewhat unimportant.

[GodWood]

I really see no benefit in having a voiced PC in an RPG.
I much prefer having them silent so I, as the player, can decide what I want them to sound like and so I, as the player, can decide exactly what I want them to say and how I want them to say it.

[Warheadz]

As long as the player can't choose from multiple voice-overs, we should just stick with the silent. Will it ever happen? Dunno. But silent is better than a voiced character if there is no choice.

[DocDoomII]

VO of the protagonist in DA2 and ME series are quite bad too. Can't sense any emotion in their voice.

[mdugger12]

wowpwnslol wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

RPG's being made for consoles has ruined RPG gaming. Every dumb "innovation" is there because a bunch of ADD kids can't be bothered to read.

Why am I not surprised that the topic starter is a console user?

How insightful. Just curious, when did you decide you were against innovation? Why not just stick to pen and paper? I'm seeing a lot of arguments to support letting gaming stagnate to fit the comfort level of a few "hardcore old school" fans but I don't understand why you you're drawn to this medium for your Role playing fix. Because you're not concerned with how good a story is, or characters, or the world created for your enjoyment. Bust out the pen and paper if thats the experience you're looking but whats the point of anybody attacking video game developers for using the resources they have available.

Because it's not really innovation, thus the quotation marks. Gaming is not at the level where there can be a voiced main character without significant sacrifice in dialogue options due to resource constraints a company faces when they choose to go down that path.

I would not mind voiced character at all - as long as the same depth is retained in conversations. If you played NWN2, there was a 30 minute trial scene with TONS of complex dialogue options based on your previous actions (or inactions) and skill based conversation checks etc.  Can D2 achieve the same? No. The convos consist one one liners where devs have to hold our hand telling us what is "good/diplomatic", sarcastic and "evil/aggressive.

Currently, voiced main character is actually a step backwards, as we have none of the complexity with the "dialogue wheel" featuring contracted responses, where your character doesn't even say what you want half the time. It really should have been confined to action/platform shooters with RPG elements like ME series, where RPing is somewhat unimportant.

Now that makes more sense. I agree, there are still plenty of things that can be done better with a voiced protagonist but that isn't a reason to throw it out. I didn't play NWN2 but I'm familiar with the Ember Trial. It's pretty much the same set up as the Landsmeet and to some extent the Omega Relay scene in ME2. It's not a situation that DA2 "couldn't" achieve that, obviously it could have. It's more of a situation that it wouldn't have been natural anywhere in the story. But that doesn't take away the advancement of having a voiced protag, it's a seperate issue. As far as holding out hand regarding the tone of options you choose, that really isn't important at all and can't hurt gameplay for a RPG vet. It only makes the game more accessible to casual/new players and if that bothers you thats also a totally seperate issue. You shouldn't want to alienate gamers new to the genre if you don't actually lose anything.

[mdugger12]

Warheadz wrote...

As long as the player can't choose from multiple voice-overs, we should just stick with the silent. Will it ever happen? Dunno. But silent is better than a voiced character if there is no choice.

Do it right or don't do it at all. I really want to agree with that. It just doesn't make sense to not use a voiced protagonist. At this point you shouldn't allow Bioware or any developer off the hook to revert back to something that, while may be comfortable and familiar, is pretty unacceptable in gaming today. We should be demanding that they spend the money to do it right so the genre can move forward. Not allowing things to stagnate.

[5ubzer0]

Gatt9 wrote...

I think maybe you took his response a bit too personally,  I didn't get the same impression I think you did out of that,  although I can see how his closing comment could easily be read differently.

I am sure you mean well. Although I must say I appreciate your response, I do not agree.

It's quite simple, actually. When I take the elevator, I do not engage the person standing next to me in a discussion about Sartre. Not because I don't think that's a fascinating topic. Chances are high, however, that he or she may have no idea what I am talking about. As a result of this, I may very well make the other person feel uncomfortable. Every one of us can come up with a topic that will make others look inadequate. What's the point?

Now when I see a post in a game forum making references to Chaucer and Milton, I can't help but wonder how many people here have read "Paradise Lost." Probably not that many. Combine that with a statement about the "Reading is fundamental" campaign, an overall less than respectful tone, and I get the impression that the poster really tries to show off.

I am not a fan of ego boosting at the expense of others. If I misinterpreted the poster's intent, I'll bow out gracefully.
Lastly, I work in mental health. The stigma attached to mental health issues is not something I take lightly.

To keep it on topic, the dialogue wheel still is super awesome!

[AlanC9]

wowpwnslol wrote...
I would not mind voiced character at all - as long as the same depth is retained in conversations. If you played NWN2, there was a 30 minute trial scene with TONS of complex dialogue options based on your previous actions (or inactions) and skill based conversation checks etc.  Can D2 achieve the same? No. The convos consist one one liners where devs have to hold our hand telling us what is "good/diplomatic", sarcastic and "evil/aggressive.

I'm not sure this proves that they couldn't do this sort of convo with a voiced PC. Going to voiced NPCs was a big resource hit and that hardly made dialogues in KotOR, NWN2 and DAO less complex than those in the IE games.

In that trial convo, for instance, they've already got a bunch of alternate lines for the other NPCs, especially Sand.

Of course, it's possible that a voiced PC puts convos like this over some sort of zot efficiency threshold that voiced NPCs don't reach, but I'm more of the opinion that not doing this sort of thing is an effect of the small DA2 budget, not the voiced PC per se. I don't think we have enough data on Bio's costs to accurately determine this.

[The Morrigan]

The addition of voice means there are going to be limitations, limitiations that wouldn't necessarily be there in text. Personally, I quite like having a voiced protag; gives me more character to work with. The voiced dialogue itself isn't to blame - I'd rather developers work towards a goal of reasonable choice in dialogue, but also with a voiced protagonist.

The thing wiht DA2 (and ME) is that the dialogue wheel and the voiced protagonist create a completely different experience to a "regular" RPG. The player doesn't know for sure what their character is going to do or say - it's more improvised. But at the same time, the other characters are more reactive. Think about text dialogue in DA:O, for example; there are plenty of dialogue trees where no matter how elaborate your reply is, the NPC will respond in more or less the same way. You might get one additional line of dialogue to acknowledge your specific text choice, but it doesn't change the outcome of what the NPC says to you.

I say the problem isn't voice, but choice. Give me more of it! Develop Dragon Age 3 for six or more years and make it the most groundbreaking RPG to date!

And remember that more snark is a good thing.

Modifié par The Morrigan, 14 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[Veritas]

The problem I have with this thought "I don't want to go back to no voice and reading text boxes" is that the premise is unsound (as an opinion fine, but as a fore gone conclusion not so much); that some how a voiced protagonist is better aesthetically or technically, than a silent one. Movies(new tech) were invented and yet one can still find books(old tech) for sell. Don't get me wrong, I am not against a voiced character I enjoyed ME/ME2 but that does not mean that I cannot also enjoy DA:O or games in the same class (however anyone chooses to define that class) without voice work. Voicing a game places certain limitations upon the designers; it cost money to hire actors which in turn tends to lead to either, if not both, limiting the number of characters and/or limiting the number of options for how to respond to something said to you. What I think it comes down to for most people is pacing: is the story moving along fast or slow enough for the person... if there is a new book you wanted and a new movie you wanted, sitting on a table in front of you which would you pick up and enjoy first. Those who would pick the movie first are more likely to prefer a voiced character, those who would pick the book first are likely to prefer a "silent" character. *** Food for thought*** I would point out one thing to those who think a voiced character is the only way to go and should never be done otherwise... the number 1 best seller and most five start rated product on amazon is the Kindle: a technological item design so people can read books.

[GodWood]

mdugger12 wrote...

Warheadz wrote...
As long as the player can't choose from multiple voice-overs, we should just stick with the silent. Will it ever happen? Dunno. But silent is better than a voiced character if there is no choice.

Do it right or don't do it at all. I really want to agree with that. It just doesn't make sense to not use a voiced protagonist. At this point you shouldn't allow Bioware or any developer off the hook to revert back to something that, while may be comfortable and familiar, is pretty unacceptable in gaming today.

How is it unacceptable?
Plenty of RPGs still use a silent protaganist and they sell very well and some (like me) would argue it's a superior style of protaganist as it allows more role-playing freedom and allows the developers to spend money and resources on more important things.

We should be demanding that they spend the money to do it right so the genre can move forward. Not allowing things to stagnate.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
I personally see absolutely no benefits to having a voiced protaganist in an RPG.
Even if I had a choice of 50 VO (which is just not possible) I would still rather a silent PC.
Why?
Well for one the money spent on those 50 VO could have been spent on more content for companion dialogue, levels, longer story, romances etc etc.
And secondly having a silent proganist gives me more freedom to role-play the character I want to play, which IMO is fundamentally the most enjoyable part of playing an RPG.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 avril 2011 - 11:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

- have fully written lines (this is a MUST. Absolutely, positively NO paraphrases!)




- no VO, but have someone (anyone) record it anyway, use it to generate gesticulation and then remove it - the PC would open his mouth properly and make gestures, but no sound will come out.
OR
- find a way to generate speach from severl voice clips.....

[Aargh12]

wowpwnslol wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

RPG's being made for consoles has ruined RPG gaming. Every dumb "innovation" is there because a bunch of ADD kids can't be bothered to read.

Why am I not surprised that the topic starter is a console user?

How insightful. Just curious, when did you decide you were against innovation? Why not just stick to pen and paper? I'm seeing a lot of arguments to support letting gaming stagnate to fit the comfort level of a few "hardcore old school" fans but I don't understand why you you're drawn to this medium for your Role playing fix. Because you're not concerned with how good a story is, or characters, or the world created for your enjoyment. Bust out the pen and paper if thats the experience you're looking but whats the point of anybody attacking video game developers for using the resources they have available.

Because it's not really innovation, thus the quotation marks. Gaming is not at the level where there can be a voiced main character without significant sacrifice in dialogue options due to resource constraints a company faces when they choose to go down that path.

I would not mind voiced character at all - as long as the same depth is retained in conversations. If you played NWN2, there was a 30 minute trial scene with TONS of complex dialogue options based on your previous actions (or inactions) and skill based conversation checks etc.  Can D2 achieve the same? No. The convos consist one one liners where devs have to hold our hand telling us what is "good/diplomatic", sarcastic and "evil/aggressive.

Currently, voiced main character is actually a step backwards, as we have none of the complexity with the "dialogue wheel" featuring contracted responses, where your character doesn't even say what you want half the time. It really should have been confined to action/platform shooters with RPG elements like ME series, where RPing is somewhat unimportant.

This. This all the way. 
With the current level of technology (storage devices to be exact) it's impossible to add a VO without sacrificing the depth of the dialogues.

Also, there are RPGs that are successful without voiced protagonist. Fallout, anyone?

[tfive24]

I have been playing Mass effect 1 and 2, then went back to play Dragon Age:Origin. I have come to the conclusion to take the a non voice pc. I don't like have less content and less options when playing a rpg. There is less reason for me to play me 1 and 2 because of the voiced pc. I have beat me 1 twice and me 2 once, but I have beat DA:O 4 times with 8 different characters. DA II, i haven't finished beating it, and i probably never will. By the way, please stop blaming all console gamers for the cutting of content of games, I'm a console gamer myself and i don;t like it one bit. Blame the devs and publishers for putting too much weight in tho the metrics data they get back from their games.

[Rompa87]

Surely there must be some way for those who want to "live" through their character in a deep RPG without having a VO, and still get their way? I've seen some people suggest P'n'P RPG's here. Couldn't that be something for the old-schoolers?

Then you can self-voice all you want and create in-depth adventures on your own, without having to rely on pesky devs who might ruin "your" game?

I am fully in favour of voiced player characters, probably since I don't play my games imagining I'm actually in it myself.

[ToJKa1]

I got crawing for the old school computer RPGs after DA2, and must also say i much prefer selecting from multiple, fully written lines with a silent PC than a misleading paraphrase with the voice actor saying something i didn't mean to say. Call me old school, but when it comes to the player character silence is golden ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

I still prefer the system used in NWN for example, only some of the important dialogue is voiced, rest is text only. It has the benefits of both systems, the better and more extensive writing of text only system and ...whatever the benefits of voice acting are. And it saves money and deveploment time that could be better used in more important areas. 

Oh well, i realise that ain't gonna happen, but atleast i have my old games still. Too bad there wont be any new old games

[DanaScu]

Aradace wrote...

Dont worry OP. DA3 will NOT bring back your warden as a protagonist OR the voiceless hero in general. I find it humorous too. If people want their sodding voiceless hero and walls of text RPGs, they should go play MUDDs or their other games where they can get that and stop pining over something their not going to get back.  

I guess it depends on who is in charge, and whether EA lets the leash out a little.

When they were working on Dragon Age, they had a different midset for the player character. From a different thread:

http://social.biowar...7811/37#7052053

"I'm going to give you an interview with Zeschuk of Bioware (whoever that is) that multiplayerblog.mtv did.

"Multiplayer: If people's last point of reference for BioWare is "Mass Effect," they may recall the quality of the voice acting and the fact that you could even choose the gender of your character and have a separate voice track to listen to. Also, the conversation was triggered by mood and not knowing the line that the character would deliver. In "Dragon Age" it seemed that your lead character has no voice and you're literally selecting what line you say next rather than picking the emotion. So how should people interpret that you guys have undone some of the things you did in "Mass Effect," and why is there a difference?

Zeschuk: So the way the voice and the voice of the protagonist works: Our belief, and the reason we make a wide variety of games at BioWare (we actually have a quite a few in development), they come in different flavors. "Mass Effect" is incredibly cinematic and flowed a certain way based on the protagonist's voice and the way we did the dialogue system. When we looked at "Dragon Age" we sat back and thought we wanted the player to reflect their own inner voice. This was a very conscious decision. It actually harkens back to our roots and it's actually what we've done in all our games up until "Mass Effect." And things like "KOTOR" have been pretty well-loved by the fans. [smiles] There's a lot of choices in this game about how you portray yourself and how you experience it. We wanted players to have an additional sense of -- even though I'm picking a line -- I'm the one saying it in my head"

Imo, its too bad they changed that. I guess it didn't fit with the "fight like a SPARTAN!!!!!!" hot-rod samurai push-a-button-and-something-AWESOME-happens!!!!!!!!!!!!! concept.

Aradace, you're probably right, and they will keep attracting new players by streamlining and spoon-feeding everything so there will be no difficult things to do in a game, like reading. Whether they will keep the new players attracted by teh shineys is a different question. Moving on to the next hot-rod samurai button awesome game doesn't do good things for a long term fanbase for your products.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't want to self-voice. I just don't want the game's voice to contradict my character's design.