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[Persephone]

17thknight wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Wow. Falsifying (Misquoting) dialogue, hyperbole and rudeness all in one post. Just awe inspiring.

And it's fanGIRL, dear hater. I may call you hater, given how you throw the "fanboi" label at me, right?

Except that IS the dialogue. You pick "STAY AWAY FROM MY SISTER!" with a big angry fist.
You get the very bored "I'm with Bethany".

How do those two possibly mesh? Why not just say "STAY AWAY FROM MY SISTER!" in an angry tone, as indicated by the giant red fist?

Give me one logical reason why those two should not be congruent.

The dialogue is not "Stay away from my sister" and the response is not "I'm with Bethany". Nor is it in all caps (yelled).

There are various nuances to threats, anger and making demands. Not just bellowing. (Take Shepard's Renegade interrupts, are they all bellowed because of the Red "anger" symbol?) 

Hawke is setting Wesley straight without antagonizing a possible ally who might sell his sister out (Wesley indicates that it'll be his duty) once they reach Kirkwall. Never mind that there are more pressing issues than shouting matches....hello, darkspawn!

[17thknight]

Persephone wrote...
The dialogue is not "Stay away from my sister" and the response is not "I'm with Bethany". Nor is it in all caps (yelled).

There are various nuances to threats, anger and making demands. Not just bellowing. (Take Shepard's Renegade interrupts, are they all bellowed because of the Red "anger" symbol?) 

Hawke is setting Wesley straight without antagonizing a possible ally who might sell his sister out (Wesley indicates that it'll be his duty) once they reach Kirkwall. Never mind that there are more pressing issues than shouting matches....hello, darkspawn!

So after all that, you have no logical reason whatsoever that the words you picked shouldhave nothing to do with what you actually say.

Hell, not one word you pick is actually in the spoken dialogue.

You have yet tto give a logical reason why this should be. (not to mention the tone is WILDLY off for picking a giant-red-fist and the resutl being  a yawn inducing "I'm with bethany").

Modifié par 17thknight, 13 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[Persephone]

17thknight wrote...

Persephone wrote...
The dialogue is not "Stay away from my sister" and the response is not "I'm with Bethany". Nor is it in all caps (yelled).

There are various nuances to threats, anger and making demands. Not just bellowing. (Take Shepard's Renegade interrupts, are they all bellowed because of the Red "anger" symbol?) 

Hawke is setting Wesley straight without antagonizing a possible ally who might sell his sister out (Wesley indicates that it'll be his duty) once they reach Kirkwall. Never mind that there are more pressing issues than shouting matches....hello, darkspawn!

So after all that, you have no logical reason whatsoever that the words you picked shouldhave nothing to do with what you actually say.

Hell, not one word you pick is actually in the spoken dialogue.

You have yet tto give a logical reason why this should be. (not to mention the tone is WILDLY off for picking a giant-red-fist and the resutl being  a yawn inducing "I'm with bethany").

I have explained it. You chose to ignore the explanation. Fine by me. And kindly stop misquoting the dialogue.

[MingWolf]

I don't mind voice protagonists if they are done right (Mass Effect). There is of course plenty of ways to do it wrong.

I also don't believe the whole reading text boxes thing to be primitive. Sometimes narrative can be carried out with much more enthusiasm and depth than having some actor try and force it. Plus its more efficient. There is only so much one can do behind a microphone, and there plenty of ways to botch that up too.

[17thknight]

Persephone wrote...


I have explained it. You chose to ignore the explanation. Fine by me. And kindly stop misquoting the dialogue.

Give me ONE logical reason you should be picking options and not ONE WORD of what you pick is in the spoken dialogue. Your explanation had nothing to do with what I just requested.


Go for it, one logical reason you should be picking things that have not a single word (not one WORD) in the spoken dialogue.

[Persephone]

17thknight wrote...

Persephone wrote...


I have explained it. You chose to ignore the explanation. Fine by me. And kindly stop misquoting the dialogue.

Give me ONE logical reason you should be picking options and not ONE WORD of what you pick is in the spoken dialogue. Your explanation had nothing to do with what I just requested.


Go for it, one logical reason you should be picking things that have not a single word (not one WORD) in the spoken dialogue.

Look up the correct dialogue. Maybe you'll get it then. If not, fine by me.

[17thknight]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Isn't it that way in Mass Effect, too? You pick a renegade response, Shepard goes "Hey everyone, this store discriminates against the poor!" Shep doesn't actually say "Your prices are insulting" or whatever.

Though I will agree that the dialouge wheel feels out of place in the DA games. Just my opinion, of course.

Absolutely, which is why I savaged the idea of putting in the dialogue wheel 9 MONTHS ago. Click my profile, it's one of the threads I made, and all the points I brought up (surprise!) actually happened.

It's a HUGE probelm with Mass effect but it's been there since the beginning and the game isn't much of an RPG in the first place so you deal with it. (Although it's always amazing when you pick something that says "Stop!" and you end up committing cold-blooded murder, only to say torture is mean 20 minutes later).

But then importing that godawful system into a game that didn't have it in the first place? Unfathomably stupid.

The end  result is the exact same problems in DA2.

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

17thknight wrote...

Persephone wrote...
The dialogue is not "Stay away from my sister" and the response is not "I'm with Bethany". Nor is it in all caps (yelled).

There are various nuances to threats, anger and making demands. Not just bellowing. (Take Shepard's Renegade interrupts, are they all bellowed because of the Red "anger" symbol?) 

Hawke is setting Wesley straight without antagonizing a possible ally who might sell his sister out (Wesley indicates that it'll be his duty) once they reach Kirkwall. Never mind that there are more pressing issues than shouting matches....hello, darkspawn!

So after all that, you have no logical reason whatsoever that the words you picked shouldhave nothing to do with what you actually say.

Hell, not one word you pick is actually in the spoken dialogue.

You have yet tto give a logical reason why this should be. (not to mention the tone is WILDLY off for picking a giant-red-fist and the resutl being  a yawn inducing "I'm with bethany").

I have explained it. You chose to ignore the explanation. Fine by me. And kindly stop misquoting the dialogue.

Isn't it that way in Mass Effect, too? You pick a renegade response, Shepard goes "Hey everyone, this store discriminates against the poor!" Shep doesn't actually say "Your prices are insulting" or whatever.

Though I will agree that the dialouge wheel feels out of place in the DA games. Just my opinion, of course.

I will concede that maybe playing both ME and ME2 (And LOVING every moment....well...except for "The Priiiiiiiize!") made the wheel feel less like an abrupt switch to me. It felt familiar, I liked how aspects were added that were not in ME and that was that. But that may indeed have helped me to ease into it.

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...

17thknight wrote...

Persephone wrote...

What game were you playing? In my game Hawke almost growled (Love Lady Hawke's snarl there) "As long as you know that I stand with Bethany, Templar!". 

Which is exactly like the big angry red fist and "STAY AWAY FROM MY SISTER!" Right?

Hell, why didn't he say "Stay away from my sister!" Or something equivalent?

Instead "Hurrr I'm with Bethany." "Oh, okay, who the **** are you?" "The dude with Bethany." "...kay."

It's garbage. Absolute garbage. The dialogue and actions have NOTHING to do with the choice you picked. Nothing.

Must anger always be loud and involve "This is Spartaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!" rage? The underlying threat is actually way more potent. To me, anyway.

I think that 17thKnight is SLIGHTLY overexaggerating here.

But I agree with his basic point. The spoken lines are often bad.

My favourite example is in ME2 when some Batarian goes like
- "what are you looking at? *grabs weapon*"
- A dead man.

Now, i always pick that because i thought it is one of the best lines I ever heard in a video game. Only Shepard SAYS: "The man whose day I´m about to ruin". I was like WHAT THE FREAKING DEVIL´S HELL THAT`S SH!T!!!!!!!!

Moments like this happen often in DA2. Admittedly, not always, and there are some cases where I found the paraphrase quite good. But still WAY TOO often.

[Persephone]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

@Persephone: The Jacob romance was worth it for that piece of dialouge

*Recoils*

But...but.........Thane! ...... Garrus....

[ItsToofy]

What about in ME2? i wanted Shepard to be a slight jerk with some renegade options, not a freakin cold blooded murderer, for example, when you sneak up on the blue sun or whatever the heck they were called in one of the towers that you're supposed to invade...shows how much I remember a game I played a month ago, it's too bad, ME2 was nearly forgetable in terms of ME1, sorry, ME1 felt more epic.

Anywhooo...when you sneak up on the guy and you have that "For Renegade action: press 1" icon show up, I didn't know what would happen, it's even worse than the dialogue wheel because you don't even know what is going to happen if you push that button, it's like Monty Hall's Let's Make a Deal, what's behind door number 1? Oh, push the guy out the window, how tasteful...there's only two extremes in this game, cold blooded murderer or super jesus mode, what if there were options like, push him out the window but hold onto him to scare the living crap out of him? that would have been nice, didn't want to pull a Die Hard 1 but i guess since I didn't know ahead of time, guess we have to live with it...

[Dark83]

I think a "she's with me" type of line is very badass, and a rather standard counter-threat if someone is being picked on.

Jacob's so boring as a dude. He won't even chill at the bar or nothin'.

[Dark83]

ItsToofy wrote...

What about in ME2? i wanted Shepard to be a slight jerk with some renegade options, not a freakin cold blooded murderer, for example, when you sneak up on the blue sun or whatever the heck they were called in one of the towers that you're supposed to invade...

So you're ok with shooting them until they're dead, but not with killing them in a pragmatic way? :innocent:

[ItsToofy]

Dark83 wrote...

ItsToofy wrote...

What about in ME2? i wanted Shepard to be a slight jerk with some renegade options, not a freakin cold blooded murderer, for example, when you sneak up on the blue sun or whatever the heck they were called in one of the towers that you're supposed to invade...

So you're ok with shooting them until they're dead, but not with killing them in a pragmatic way? :innocent:

There's a differance between being an honorable or dishonorable bastard...don't start with the "you'd rather kill him X way instead of Y?"...

Soldiers normaly shoot people on the battlefield to kill them, but most would rather not kill in the most brutal fashion possible...it's all a matter of being demented, but being demented to a certain extent...

AKA I'm fine with the kill or be killed dogma, but throwing a beaten man out a window? I would have much rather held his cuff at the edge and threatened to let him go, never having the intention, but I think in terms of the character I would have preferred to be, unfortunately I have to live with the choice and the extra renegade, mainly because, at first, I didn't know what would happen.

Modifié par ItsToofy, 13 avril 2011 - 06:40 .

[Persephone]

ItsToofy wrote...
Oh, push the guy out the window, how tasteful...there's only two extremes in this game, cold blooded murderer or super jesus mode, what if there were options like, push him out the window but hold onto him to scare the living crap out of him?

You can actually do this.

With Shep going "What sound will you make when you hit the ground? Think you'll hear it before you die?".

[erynnar]

Having a voiced character for cut away scenes and having them silent for the rest would be a compromise I think I could live with (as long as the VA had a good voice and talent like Lady Shep). I prefer more content and a longer game to a shorter game and my PC speaking.

[AlanC9]

ItsToofy wrote...

What about in ME2? i wanted Shepard to be a slight jerk with some renegade options, not a freakin cold blooded murderer, for example, when you sneak up on the blue sun or whatever the heck they were called in one of the towers that you're supposed to invade...shows how much I remember a game I played a month ago, it's too bad, ME2 was nearly forgetable in terms of ME1, sorry, ME1 felt more epic.

Anywhooo...when you sneak up on the guy and you have that "For Renegade action: press 1" icon show up, I didn't know what would happen, it's even worse than the dialogue wheel because you don't even know what is going to happen if you push that button, it's like Monty Hall's Let's Make a Deal, what's behind door number 1? Oh, push the guy out the window, how tasteful...there's only two extremes in this game, cold blooded murderer or super jesus mode, what if there were options like, push him out the window but hold onto him to scare the living crap out of him? that would have been nice, didn't want to pull a Die Hard 1 but i guess since I didn't know ahead of time, guess we have to live with it...

You're going through the whole tower shooting these guys right and left, and you're bugged by Shepard saving a thermal clip?

I don't know why you didn't expect Shepard to toss the guy out a window. Thw whole conversation was already an interrogation at gunpoint. What did you think would happen? Interrupts interrupt a conversation, you know. What you wanted was the Renegade dialog choice.

And if you really had no idea what would happen, why'd you hit the button?

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 avril 2011 - 06:43 .

[Bostur]

mordarwarlock wrote...

like for example, in the first conversation with flemeht, there's an option in the dialogue wheel, I don't remember exactly it said something like "ok", then Hawke says something as short as "spot on"

Actually Ive read a reasonable explanation for why they do it like that. If the character repeats the exact same words, it may feel like the line is being said twice and feel awkward. Instead it may feel more natural to use slightly different wording in the paraphrase.

I'm not entirely convinced of that argument myself, but I can understand the reasoning.



But whether the paraphrase is identical or not, it should in my opinion at least aproximate the general tone and the message being said. DA2 gets way off quite often. ME1 and ME2 does as well sometimes but not nearly as often.

[ItsToofy]

Persephone wrote...

ItsToofy wrote...
Oh, push the guy out the window, how tasteful...there's only two extremes in this game, cold blooded murderer or super jesus mode, what if there were options like, push him out the window but hold onto him to scare the living crap out of him?

You can actually do this.

With Shep going "What sound will you make when you hit the ground? Think you'll hear it before you die?".

Ok, here's the point I'm making, there is no intimidate or persuade skill, its all renegade and paragon points, I chose that option to be intimidating, but unfortunately that didn't budge, instead I had a renegade option and figured what the hell, let's go for it, and he went for it...but here's the kicker...YOU DON'T KNOW THE ACTION BEFORE IT HAPPENS! that's the point I'm trying to portray, sure, it's VERY obvious what COULD happen. If I am playing an RPG, I would like to know the action my character is about to take, so that I can choose whether or not I want to take that action...that's it.

[AlanC9]

And what I was saying is that you should have expected something like that from a Renegade interrupt aimed at someone who is an armed enemy combatant.When you're on a mission the Renegade interrupts always involve violence, don't they?

[Warheadz]

AlanC9 wrote...

And what I was saying is that you should have expected something like that from a Renegade interrupt aimed at someone who is an armed enemy combatant.When you're on a mission the Renegade interrupts always involve violence, don't they?

You know, in an RPG you shouldn't ever have to guess what your character will do when you press the awesome button. Even if you assume that renegade option means cutting someone open, taking their guts out and roasting them on an open fire, not everyone does.

[Nozybidaj]

Bostur wrote...

Actually Ive read a reasonable explanation for why they do it like that. If the character repeats the exact same words, it may feel like the line is being said twice and feel awkward. Instead it may feel more natural to use slightly different wording in the paraphrase.

I'm not entirely convinced of that argument myself, but I can understand the reasoning.



But whether the paraphrase is identical or not, it should in my opinion at least aproximate the general tone and the message being said. DA2 gets way off quite often. ME1 and ME2 does as well sometimes but not nearly as often.

I don't see why they even bother with a paraphrase.  Just give a little fist symbol, or heart, or halo, or whatever.  At least then no one can complain about the line being misinterpreted.