41 réponses à ce sujet

[Super_Fr33k]

I think Anders' symbiosis with Justice has some interesting implications for DA, especially since mages' future is very much in flux atm.

First, there are very few examples of hosts being able to contain, let alone alter, benevolent spirits. The only other example I can think of for benevolent possession is Wynne, and as best I recall, she doesn't alter the spirit, it just kinda kicks in when necessary.

I think it's an intriguing possibility for future DA games if mages catch onto that whole "I can be possessed but not an abomination" thing. It has some significant implications.

Anders is apparently immune, or highly resistant, to being possessed by a demon. Doesn't this suggest that mages, if they can figure out how to draw out benevolent spirits, would be wise to forceably plant them into themselves?

The answer, of course, depends on whether you think Anders would have bombed the Chantry without Justice. Anders was supposed to be very angry with Templars before Justice, so he may have been willing to do it with or without Justice.

It could interesting for DA3, or any other game covering the mage rebellion, to explore mages seeking out benevolent possession to ward off demons. If mages can immunize themselves from demons, suddenly the Chantry loses a great deal of justification for imprisoning them. Abominations would be immensely rare, likely only occurring when a very powerful demon can force out the previous spirit. It might be possible to ward against even that, since Anders mentions he and Justice are inseparable.

Thoughts? Preventative possession a good thing? Should future games play with the concept more?

On another front, it is very strange that Justice, as a spirit whose nature is immutable, has evolved into a "spirit of vengeance" as Anders describes him. Is this a literal evolution? If so, it would be very odd to see a spirit's characteristics fundamentally change. Or is it simply that the force of Anders' emotions has skewed Justice's perceptions of the suffering of mages as a greater crime than any other? (I'd appreciate BW clarification on this point.)

[Foolsfolly]

No. It's dangerous.

Justice would not have bombed the Chantry. Anders would not have bombed the Chantry. They bombed the Chantry because Justice is no longer Justice. The spirit was corrupted by Anders's hate. That proves that you have to have the mind of a Jedi (or Wynne) to have a healthy beneficial possession with a Spirit.

It's still dangerous, maybe more so dangerous because other Mages and civilians might not be aware of what a Spirit/Mortal Abomination is capable of. Uldred corrupted some of a Circle with a Pride Demon, Anders killed an unknown number of civilians and started a destructive war with a Justice Spirit.

[Rifneno]

It was a plot device that still makes no sense.  As you say, there's no instance of anything even similar happening before.  Unless Wynne's spirit was a spirit of nagging, then it was totally uncorrupted by her.  And no demon has ever has its personality changed for the better by the person it's possessing.  So what, does it only effect spirits (i.e. the good ones) and if so, why didn't it effect Wynne's?  And nobody tell me that Wynne was some paragon of virtue that had nothing to corrupt it.  She was a human being with the same faults as anyone else.

Edit:  Also unexplained is how he knew how to make that bomb.  The ingredients he has you get are part of the real recipe for gunpowder, which was called "black powder" in ancient times.  The qunari sure aren't giving up that secret easily and it looks like they're the only ones with it.  If any other country got it, it would give them an enormous military advantage.  It's not like this knowledge is commonplace (well, at the time this game is set).  He basically found a way to turn iron into gold, but we're too distracted by what he did with it to notice "wait, how the **** did he get the knowledge to do that?"

Modifié par Rifneno, 12 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[Rexiselic]

I actually had the same exact line of thought. I imagine the mages taking on a new ritual to replace the Harrowing called "the Joining".

In it the mage seeks out a benevolent spirit to possoss him (justice, valor, courage, honor, etc.) and if the mages emerges in a state such as Wynne then they are accepted into the circle or if they emerge like Anders, having mutated the spirit into something different because of something already in the mage's heart then perhaps the templars kill him or they attempt to remove the spirit in a similar fashion that the demon is removed from Connor when the mages help. I imagine that it would be easier since this good spirit would probably leave willingly if things went wrong.

As we saw in the Fade, only Anders was immune to the influence of demons due to already having a spirit residing within him. It is certainly interesting I think.

[Augustei]

If you take the rivalry path with Anders he will express great regret for what he has done and then justice will come out and basically tell you to F off saying "You have given in to sloth!" Also in Awakening Anders says "Mages breaking away from the chantry is a receipe for disaster!" Anders would not have bombed the chantry without justice imo so yeah, bad idea.

Anyway what you described is pretty much what the Rivani Seers have been doing for ages anyway

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

If you take the rivalry path with Anders he will express great regret for what he has done and then justice will come out and basically tell you to F off saying "You have given in to sloth!" Also in Awakening Anders says "Mages breaking away from the chantry is a receipe for disaster!" Anders would not have bombed the chantry without justice imo so yeah, bad idea.

There's more of a disconnect between Anders and Justice on the rivalry path in terms of their symbiosis, and that scene you mentioned illustrates that they aren't quite as merged as Anders initially lead on - they may share the same body, but they aren't quite one person since they can be distinct in their perceptions of right and wrong.

[IanPolaris]

Actually we don't know whether or not Wynne's spirit corrupted her or not. I personally still think that her "spirit of faith" might actually be a Pride Demon. The fact is that we talk with Wynne for all of about a minute comprising of 2-4 lines when she is not possessed....so we really have no basis of comparison.

-Polaris

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually we don't know whether or not Wynne's spirit corrupted her or not. I personally still think that her "spirit of faith" might actually be a Pride Demon. The fact is that we talk with Wynne for all of about a minute comprising of 2-4 lines when she is not possessed....so we really have no basis of comparison.

-Polaris

Anders is also unique in his fashion. A spirit yanked out of the fade into a corpse. I think it almost severed the spirits link to it. So for example I don't think it was as simple as the body dies so Justice could go home. Even when they enter the fade it's together and not separate. So it's hard to say what he is. It isn't like you can enter the fade and battle justice to free Anders. Not even sure what Wynne is. She never seemed posessed just empowered by the spirit that she says never spoke to her. Hard to say either way besides assumption to her words. Anders contradicts his own situation but either way Justice is definitely not one of the nice beneficial spirits. Willing to kill all in his path to meet his goal. Basically a Demon with a blue glow instead of a purple one.

[Augustei]

Also another example you missed of spirit-human merging or w/e you want to call it is Flemeth

[electricfish]

I think Wynne actually did suffer some change after the "possession" of her spirit buddy. Faith is not quite as "hard" a concept as justice is, so perhaps the changes are a little more subtle compared to Anders. While we don't actually know what Wynne was like before she got possessed, many players seem to find her pushy and 'nagging' in her conversations, which is likely a manifest of her faith.
She believes strongly in ideals, humility, glory, and is dangerously close to seeing the world in black and white. The fact that the Warden/player can choose to question or investigate the meaning of what she says in several subjects is sort of like a trigger for getting her or her Faith buddy to defend themselves as if their faith were being threatened. Granted, this is very mild, but it can still be taken as a threat nonetheless.
She has the most respect for Alistair and Leliana because they appreciate the Andrastian religion much more than the rest of your party members (especially Morrigan and Zevran), and their faith in the Maker puts them in better graces and Wynne in a more agreeable conversation mindset. The Warden is an unknown variable, and while they may not be deliberately pushing, the Warden is still an element of grey that can push Wynne to test the boundaries of faith during the gathering of allies during the Blight and such.

Keep in mind that we only get to see Wynne over the course of a year, and for like five minutes in Awakening, compared to 9 years with Anders who goes cuckoo and what not at the end. The real consequences of having more "benign" spirits like that of faith and compassion over a long period of time are not really explored, which is a shame because it would be very interesting to see how Wynne develops and how the Faith spirit inside her evolves, or doesn't, in that period of time.

It could become a Pride spirit (or a similar trait), as faith in the real world can certainly evolve to manifest itself as a thing of pride, or even into a more active feeling like zealots and Sister Petrice seem to manifest. She's pretty crazy herself, but her believed faith in the religion and the Chantry as a whole certainly seemed prideful to us outsiders who are not of the same mindset.

It's something to think about, at least.

[HighMoon]

I don't know if he was on to something, but he was certainly ON something..

(just kidding, I love you Anders. lol)

[Plaintiff]

I think it's worth considering. We don't really know enough about spirit possession to judge the pros and cons. It's not really clear how much control Justice has over Anders or how his personality changed. His negative experiences with the wardens and seeing how the poor treatment of the Kirkwall Circle far exceeds that in Ferelden could just as easily change him. We meet Anders several months at least after the events of Awakening and there are altogether six or so years in DA2 that are, for the most part, unaccounted for. People are not constant, personailty and opinion are shaped by experience. Anything could've happened to make Anders the way he is, it's not necessarily all attributable to Justice.

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually we don't know whether or not Wynne's spirit corrupted her or not. I personally still think that her "spirit of faith" might actually be a Pride Demon. The fact is that we talk with Wynne for all of about a minute comprising of 2-4 lines when she is not possessed....so we really have no basis of comparison.

-Polaris

Does it make me a horrible person to kind of want this to be the case just for the opportunity to throw it in that preachy old hag's face (provided we ever see her again)?  Seriously, I can't stand Wynne.  No matter how much you follow the straight and narrow and avoid any shady dealings, she still won't stop preaching and nagging.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Also another example you missed of spirit-human merging or w/e you want to call it is Flemeth

We don't really know what Flemeth is, but that both Anders/Justice and Fenris are completely befuddled and taken aback by her indicates that she's clearly not as simple as a powerful abomination that the Chasind legends claim.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually we don't know whether or not Wynne's spirit corrupted her or not. I personally still think that her "spirit of faith" might actually be a Pride Demon. The fact is that we talk with Wynne for all of about a minute comprising of 2-4 lines when she is not possessed....so we really have no basis of comparison.

-Polaris

Why would a pride demon save Wynne's life? She's obviously not affected...

We get to see what Vengeance does when the spirit responds; Wynne NEVER does anything like Anders.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 12 avril 2011 - 10:26 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually we don't know whether or not Wynne's spirit corrupted her or not. I personally still think that her "spirit of faith" might actually be a Pride Demon. The fact is that we talk with Wynne for all of about a minute comprising of 2-4 lines when she is not possessed....so we really have no basis of comparison.

-Polaris

Does it make me a horrible person to kind of want this to be the case just for the opportunity to throw it in that preachy old hag's face (provided we ever see her again)?  Seriously, I can't stand Wynne.  No matter how much you follow the straight and narrow and avoid any shady dealings, she still won't stop preaching and nagging.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Also another example you missed of spirit-human merging or w/e you want to call it is Flemeth

We don't really know what Flemeth is, but that both Anders/Justice and Fenris are completely befuddled and taken aback by her indicates that she's clearly not as simple as a powerful abomination that the Chasind legends claim.

Wynne's own increasing religious zealotry will lead her astray from the straight and narrow path, transforming her once benevolent spirit into... a spirit of Bigotry.

[Danjaru]

no.. Taking on a spirit and merging with them would be rather stupid. It changed Anders for the worst.

But I don't see why mages couldn't learn a specific version of being a Spirit Warrior. Seemed to be the best type of deal with Spirits. They lend you aid in battle in exchange for being able to see the world for a little while.

Modifié par Danjaru, 12 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[HighMoon]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Wynne's own increasing religious zealotry will lead her astray from the straight and narrow path, transforming her once benevolent spirit into... a spirit of Bigotry.

LOL. A spirit of Bigotry. I can picture it now, Wynne running around the Ferelden Circle like a madwoman, preaching and nagging at every Mage, Apprentice and Enchanter that she comes across. Finally she reaches breaking point, TEARS her robes off in a heated rage, grabs hold of the nearest Mage that catches her eye and shouts to them..

"You're moving with you're auntie and uncle in Kont-Aar!".

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 12 avril 2011 - 11:04 .

[Rifneno]

Golden-Rose wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Wynne's own increasing religious zealotry will lead her astray from the straight and narrow path, transforming her once benevolent spirit into... a spirit of Bigotry.

LOL. A spirit of Bigotry. I can picture it now, Wynne running around the Ferelden Circle like a madwoman, preaching and nagging at every Mage, Apprentice and Enchanter that she comes across. Finally she reaches breaking point, TEARS her robes of in a heated rage, grabs hold of the nearest Mage that catches her eye and shouts to them..

"You're moving with you're auntie and uncle in Kont-Aar!".

Naked Wynne.  Thanks for that mental image.  Can you kill me now so it'll go away please?

[PlumPaul93]

If by on to something you mean: Being a crybaby and hypocrite during the whole game then yes.

[efrgfhnm_]

Anders would never have done what he did if he did not have a corrupted form of Justice inside of him. This lone example proves how dangerous it is, it twists the formerly benevolent spirit, and twists Anders to the extreme. Flemeth, who may or may not be the same, is now incredibly sinsister and we have no idea of what her goals or aims are, but she is definitely not someone whos example should be followed. Wynne, since we didn't know her or the spirit before, may be slowly corrupted without us knowing

[Foolsfolly]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Also another example you missed of spirit-human merging or w/e you want to call it is Flemeth

Assumes Flemeth is an Abomination and not something else. We've only had speculation on Flemeth.

[HighMoon]

Rifneno wrote...

Golden-Rose wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Wynne's own increasing religious zealotry will lead her astray from the straight and narrow path, transforming her once benevolent spirit into... a spirit of Bigotry.

LOL. A spirit of Bigotry. I can picture it now, Wynne running around the Ferelden Circle like a madwoman, preaching and nagging at every Mage, Apprentice and Enchanter that she comes across. Finally she reaches breaking point, TEARS her robes of in a heated rage, grabs hold of the nearest Mage that catches her eye and shouts to them..

"You're moving with you're auntie and uncle in Kont-Aar!".

Naked Wynne.  Thanks for that mental image.  Can you kill me now so it'll go away please?

Your wish is my command.

*casts death hex on Rifneno*

[Saephy]

 Am I the only one who thinks the problem with possession isn`t whether it´s a "good" or "bad" spirit, but being possessed in the first place? 

There is a particularly illuminating conversation between Merrill and Anders about this, regardless of friend/rivalry.
After Anders killed, or almost killed, Ella he explains "It´s not a good feeling you know", and goes on about "seeing the world through your eyes while someone else moves you like a puppet", or just blacking out and then realizing afterwards what you might have done, this doesn`t sound very positive to me at all.

It actually sounds quite horrible, and inflicting this upon someone, is something I would consider extremely cruel.

Might just be me though.

[Nashiktal]

Well you have two separate beings wrestling for control over a single body, with each person's personality influencing each other in significant ways.

Overall it just seems too dangerous to use in any significant way. Anders (in my game, since he "died" in awakening) had no choice but to accept the joining. The same happened with Wynne. (Kinda) Actually encouraging such a fusion doesn't seem like a good idea. From what little we know, fusing with a spirit good or not, changes the spirit and warps their "aspect" to a terrifying degree depending on the person.

Justice would not be the kind of person to bomb a tower in such a cowardly manner, and Anders wasn't such a whiny terrorist beforehand. With such little information... Were I a mage I would refuse such a joining unless my life depended on it, and even then I would have my apprehension.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 12 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[apantoliani]

Thinking along the same lines as the OP, I almost wonder if it was a Spirit/Person mismatch that changed Anders so much when Wynne was alright with a spirit that was into healing, though I don't quite think that was quite the same thing. Justice was trapped outside the Fade and needed a host to exist there, and Wynne and her spirit, if I remember correctly, encountered each other on the verge of her death when she fought demons in the Circle of Magi. If people go to the Fade when the die, it can make sense. 

Anders wasn't terribly interested in Justice before, just minding his own business and staying away from the Templars/Chantry/Circle. Since he loves healing magic, maybe a spirit similiar to Wynne's or something along the lines of Compassion (Another spirit type mentioned in dialogue) would have been better suited for him.

Not that it matters I guess, like he said, he did something for a friend and it ended badly. The Justice/Anders merge was a lot more of wrong place wrong time; **** happens. Whereas Wynne was being followed/stalked by a benevolent spirit. It seems that most of the time, the spirits stay away from folk, even in the Fade, which is one of the major differences between them and Demons. I can see why, Spirits + people = there is gonna be a throw down.