So little is known about the spirits, but I don't think it's completely black or white. Justice hitching a ride with Anders did not turn out so good, and we really never got a good in depth look as to how Wynne's spirit truly changed her if at all. Merrill may be on to something when she states that spirits are spirits, there are spirits of rage and desire just as there are spirits of faith and justice.
I also think that the spirits are far more facinated with human beings then we are led to think, not just the demony flavored ones. The Maker created them and cast them off for a better model more or less. Would not even a supposedly benevolent spirit be curious what it would be like to experience human life? Just my ramblings with too little coffee.
Was Anders on to something?
Débuté par
Super_Fr33k
, avril 12 2011 06:28
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#27
Posté 12 avril 2011 - 05:51
barryl89
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Well Wynnes spirit was dying so she may already be dead.
#28
Posté 12 avril 2011 - 06:45
KyleOrdrum
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In regard to Wynne. My question becomes if the Wynne we know, is the Wynne that existed prior. I do not mean this in the sense that the spirit changed her and we didn't know enough, I mean in the sense that the spirit is walking around in Wynne's corpse much like Justice in awakening.
The obvious difference being that a healing oriented spirit could keep the body in much...fresher conditions. The spirit had been following her for her whole life, and so could easily have tricked Irving and the others long enough to leave with the Warden. As well, after a year of fighting darkspawn, the others would've expected her to change, thus giving the spirit a chance to pick up a life in our world.
The obvious difference being that a healing oriented spirit could keep the body in much...fresher conditions. The spirit had been following her for her whole life, and so could easily have tricked Irving and the others long enough to leave with the Warden. As well, after a year of fighting darkspawn, the others would've expected her to change, thus giving the spirit a chance to pick up a life in our world.
#29
Posté 12 avril 2011 - 06:48
The Angry One
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Spirits are single-minded in their aspect, so I doubt a spirit of faith would have the capacity to deceive in such a manner for so long.
#30
Posté 12 avril 2011 - 06:51
BigEvil
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But how do we know it was really a spirit of Faith? I thought the only person we hear that from is Wynne after she's been taken over.
#31
Posté 12 avril 2011 - 07:11
Saelihnne
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BigEvil wrote...
But how do we know it was really a spirit of Faith? I thought the only person we hear that from is Wynne after she's been taken over.
That's a good question. Wynne states that she believes it is a spirit of Faith, but we never truly get any confirmation of this. More food for thought.
#32
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 12:12
chq
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efrgfhnm wrote...
Anders would never have done what he did if he did not have a corrupted form of Justice inside of him.
I think we're overstating the importance of this. True as it may be, being posessed is not a prerequisite of fanatacism. While Anders probably would never have done this without Justice's influence (and vice versa), it's totally possible to conceive of another fanatic mage who totally would have under the influence of no spirits at all. So it's not like preventing posessions will prevent terrorism. And while it's true that posession will certainly change people, so will a lot of other things, any number of which might drive them towards destructive acts (or might not). So I don't think this is a very good argument against it.
Furthermore, Anders's situation is different than that of any other mage we've met (barring Flemmeth, anyway), in that Justice is physically present, whereas Wynne and Connor's spirits and the spirits that spirit healers and warriors and Nevarran hedge-witch type people call on to help them out are in the Fade. Notice that while for Anders it's really hard to tell where he ends and Justice begins, Wynne recognizes her spirit as a separate entity. They don't seem to have "merged" the way Anders and Justice have. So I really don't think it's possible to compare the two situations.
Of course, the fact that Justice is physically present might well be what protects Anders from possession in the first place, so getting yourself posessed by a good spirit via the normal route might not even offer any protection at all...
#33
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 12:57
Mnemnosyne
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Why not? Wynne is one of the most stuck-up, prideful people in the setting and only once that I'm recall does she admit she might in any way be wrong about anything.JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
Why would a pride demon save Wynne's life? She's obviously not affected...
We get to see what Vengeance does when the spirit responds; Wynne NEVER does anything like Anders.
Why would a pride demon save her life? Same reason any demon merges with any mage: to see the mortal world. A pride demon smart enough not to go all 'blaargh!' is an entirely reasonable possibility. Do I really think that's going to be the case? Nah. But it's not because it doesn't make sense.
#34
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 03:03
primero holodon
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I think I'm going to agree with a comment Merrill made that there are no good spirits. I remember in Awakenings the further I got into justices development, the more I was convinced that he was becoming a demon. Wynne's spirit seems to be benevolent, But I'd be willing to bet it's because the spirits power is focused on extending her life.
#35
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 03:45
Ieolus
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I think Ander's hatred of templars and the circle corrupted Justice's singular focus, but by himself he never would have committed that overt act. Justice and vengeance (the concepts) are two sides of the same coin.
Wynne didn't have the same issues that Anders did, even if she wasn't perfect (who said she was?). She was pretty content with her life, other than her "one regret" which hopefully you resolved in Origins for her.
Wynne didn't have the same issues that Anders did, even if she wasn't perfect (who said she was?). She was pretty content with her life, other than her "one regret" which hopefully you resolved in Origins for her.
#36
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 04:20
Lewie
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In awakenings i never once thought that Justice was 'turning'. The only time i was worried was when he went mad over lyrium. You find the ring and he tells you it sings, which happened to bartrand also.
In hindsight, saying that anders knew all along that would happen doesn't work. Accidently, it does.
In hindsight, saying that anders knew all along that would happen doesn't work. Accidently, it does.
#37
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 05:34
Saelihnne
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primero holodon wrote...
I think I'm going to agree with a comment Merrill made that there are no good spirits. I remember in Awakenings the further I got into justices development, the more I was convinced that he was becoming a demon. Wynne's spirit seems to be benevolent, But I'd be willing to bet it's because the spirits power is focused on extending her life.
This is an excellent perception, at least to my warped little mind. Spirits are spirits. I think they choose what traits to embody but that does not mean they stay on a single track of thought.
#38
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 06:03
Super_Fr33k
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Wow, a topic I started actually got posts. I wuv you all to the extent you appreciate it and do not find it creepy.
A few points, touching on various posts:
I purposefully omitted Flemeth from the discussion. Flemeth is something totally different. Who knows what. I personally like the theory that she's one of original Tevinter magisters who entered the Golden City, and has prolonged her life to re-enter it, once she collects power from the slumbering Old Gods. Totally made up, but I think it'd be cool.
As has been acknowledged, it seems unlikely Anders would have bombed the Chantry without Justice, though I was initially more on-the-fence about that. Justice gave him conviction, courage and focus, which he had been lacking. It is hard to say, placed in an environment less hostile to mages, whether their merger would have been detrimental.
Regardless of the new flaws Justice created in Anders, including perhaps being short-sighted (he notes Justice has no sense of time, and therefore no patience), he did bring some virtues as well. Anders, for the first time in his life, stood his ground rather than running. If he had been possessed by Justice in Awakening, he may never have fled the Wardens.
If beneficial possession were done in a more systematic, controlled way, who's to say a person could not be matched up with a spirit which compensates for a virtue they lack? Even if the person's personality changes radically, could it still not be preferable to constant risk of demonic possession?
The unusual mechanics of Anders' possession also struck me as contradictory at first, but then I considered some of the other possessed characters in the games, such as werewolves, sylvans, etc. While possessed by rage demons, they do exhibit markedly different behaviors than other rage-possessed things. I think Anders' situation may point to a more complex reality that DA hasn't explicitly acknowledged: possession is not a binary state, but depends instead on numerous variables.
Spirits' strength is largely variable, and difficult to gauge, and that strength's interaction with potential hosts depends on the host's willpower and motives. So it makes sense the outcome would differ often. Suppose Justice had merged with an immoral or weak-willed person. The conflict between Justice and the host would be far more pronounced, with Justice potentially completely taking over. Imagine if Justice had merged with Isabela, for instance... Even demons have been shown to bide their time or struggle when paired with difficult hosts, Connor being one example.
Also, working off the example of werewolves, which aren't really rage abominations, like one might expect, it seems that the classification of spirits by certain values may be much fuzzier than it seems. There are many ways to interpret or demonstrate rage, valor, desire, pride, etc., and the dividing line can be fuzzy. Desire, as jealousy, can become rage, in example. As Merrill points out, spirits are unique, even if painted in broad strokes. This would lend even more nuance to an intentional possession process.
Synergy, nuance and magnitude are factors that, when carefully considered, could make a forced possession functional. If Anders had been paired with a compassion spirit, or a weaker Justice spirit, he may have behaved in a more balanced and peaceful way.
A few points, touching on various posts:
I purposefully omitted Flemeth from the discussion. Flemeth is something totally different. Who knows what. I personally like the theory that she's one of original Tevinter magisters who entered the Golden City, and has prolonged her life to re-enter it, once she collects power from the slumbering Old Gods. Totally made up, but I think it'd be cool.
As has been acknowledged, it seems unlikely Anders would have bombed the Chantry without Justice, though I was initially more on-the-fence about that. Justice gave him conviction, courage and focus, which he had been lacking. It is hard to say, placed in an environment less hostile to mages, whether their merger would have been detrimental.
Regardless of the new flaws Justice created in Anders, including perhaps being short-sighted (he notes Justice has no sense of time, and therefore no patience), he did bring some virtues as well. Anders, for the first time in his life, stood his ground rather than running. If he had been possessed by Justice in Awakening, he may never have fled the Wardens.
If beneficial possession were done in a more systematic, controlled way, who's to say a person could not be matched up with a spirit which compensates for a virtue they lack? Even if the person's personality changes radically, could it still not be preferable to constant risk of demonic possession?
The unusual mechanics of Anders' possession also struck me as contradictory at first, but then I considered some of the other possessed characters in the games, such as werewolves, sylvans, etc. While possessed by rage demons, they do exhibit markedly different behaviors than other rage-possessed things. I think Anders' situation may point to a more complex reality that DA hasn't explicitly acknowledged: possession is not a binary state, but depends instead on numerous variables.
Spirits' strength is largely variable, and difficult to gauge, and that strength's interaction with potential hosts depends on the host's willpower and motives. So it makes sense the outcome would differ often. Suppose Justice had merged with an immoral or weak-willed person. The conflict between Justice and the host would be far more pronounced, with Justice potentially completely taking over. Imagine if Justice had merged with Isabela, for instance... Even demons have been shown to bide their time or struggle when paired with difficult hosts, Connor being one example.
Also, working off the example of werewolves, which aren't really rage abominations, like one might expect, it seems that the classification of spirits by certain values may be much fuzzier than it seems. There are many ways to interpret or demonstrate rage, valor, desire, pride, etc., and the dividing line can be fuzzy. Desire, as jealousy, can become rage, in example. As Merrill points out, spirits are unique, even if painted in broad strokes. This would lend even more nuance to an intentional possession process.
Synergy, nuance and magnitude are factors that, when carefully considered, could make a forced possession functional. If Anders had been paired with a compassion spirit, or a weaker Justice spirit, he may have behaved in a more balanced and peaceful way.
#39
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 06:36
Saelihnne
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Super_Fr33k wrote...
Wow, a topic I started actually got posts. I wuv you all to the extent you appreciate it and do not find it creepy.
A few points, touching on various posts:
I purposefully omitted Flemeth from the discussion. Flemeth is something totally different. Who knows what. I personally like the theory that she's one of original Tevinter magisters who entered the Golden City, and has prolonged her life to re-enter it, once she collects power from the slumbering Old Gods. Totally made up, but I think it'd be cool.
As has been acknowledged, it seems unlikely Anders would have bombed the Chantry without Justice, though I was initially more on-the-fence about that. Justice gave him conviction, courage and focus, which he had been lacking. It is hard to say, placed in an environment less hostile to mages, whether their merger would have been detrimental.
Regardless of the new flaws Justice created in Anders, including perhaps being short-sighted (he notes Justice has no sense of time, and therefore no patience), he did bring some virtues as well. Anders, for the first time in his life, stood his ground rather than running. If he had been possessed by Justice in Awakening, he may never have fled the Wardens.
If beneficial possession were done in a more systematic, controlled way, who's to say a person could not be matched up with a spirit which compensates for a virtue they lack? Even if the person's personality changes radically, could it still not be preferable to constant risk of demonic possession?
The unusual mechanics of Anders' possession also struck me as contradictory at first, but then I considered some of the other possessed characters in the games, such as werewolves, sylvans, etc. While possessed by rage demons, they do exhibit markedly different behaviors than other rage-possessed things. I think Anders' situation may point to a more complex reality that DA hasn't explicitly acknowledged: possession is not a binary state, but depends instead on numerous variables.
Spirits' strength is largely variable, and difficult to gauge, and that strength's interaction with potential hosts depends on the host's willpower and motives. So it makes sense the outcome would differ often. Suppose Justice had merged with an immoral or weak-willed person. The conflict between Justice and the host would be far more pronounced, with Justice potentially completely taking over. Imagine if Justice had merged with Isabela, for instance... Even demons have been shown to bide their time or struggle when paired with difficult hosts, Connor being one example.
Also, working off the example of werewolves, which aren't really rage abominations, like one might expect, it seems that the classification of spirits by certain values may be much fuzzier than it seems. There are many ways to interpret or demonstrate rage, valor, desire, pride, etc., and the dividing line can be fuzzy. Desire, as jealousy, can become rage, in example. As Merrill points out, spirits are unique, even if painted in broad strokes. This would lend even more nuance to an intentional possession process.
Synergy, nuance and magnitude are factors that, when carefully considered, could make a forced possession functional. If Anders had been paired with a compassion spirit, or a weaker Justice spirit, he may have behaved in a more balanced and peaceful way.
THIS. You state so eloquently, what I would like to.
#40
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 08:05
Guest_Puddi III_*
Guest_Puddi III_*
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I'm curious what would happen if they tried to make Anders tranquil, or if one were to put a spirit into a tranquil.
#41
Posté 13 avril 2011 - 08:24
McHoger
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I imagine it's like a car. In an abomination, the demon is up front driving while the mage is sitting in the back. In Wynne's case, the spirit is content to sit in the back seat. And with Anders, both are up front trying to steer.
#42
Posté 15 avril 2011 - 04:38
Dhanni
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Hmm...having the warden's darkspawn taint probably didn't help either.
