77 réponses à ce sujet

[KJandrew]

 As the title suggests, all groups kind of get the short end of the stick. In DA2 it seemed to me that the elves were kind of ignored but we still see plenty of abuse in origins. 
So who do you think has it worse off: Mage or Elf or Casteless?

Modifié par KJandrew, 12 avril 2011 - 03:08 .

[IanPolaris]

KJandrew wrote...

 As the title suggests, both groups kind of get the short end of the stick. In DA2 it seemed to me that the elves were kind of ignored but we still see plenty of abuse in origins. 
So who do you think has it worse off: Mage or Elf?

As a whole?  Probably mages but it's not an easy pick.  Elves at least in most places (read not Tevinter or Orlais) at least hypothetically are royal subjects like everyone else and are equal under the law.  Certainly that is what's supposed to happen (and we are told this) in both Kirkwall and Fereldan.  That said, it all too often isn't true.....

Mages, however, by divine fiat, aren't human beings and aren't entitled to be treated as such (just as Knight Captain Cullen).

So mages unless they have a fruit-loop Knight Commander over them probably live better than most (city) elves, but overall in terms of opportunity and human rights, even city elves have it better.

Of course the Dalish have it best of all, but only a small percentage of the elves are Dalish.

-Polaris

[Torax]

Yes and no. The Circle does take care of the Mages. Talks of gardens where the food is grown. Generally I doubt the Kirkwall Circle is the norm for a Circle of Magi. They are tended to and taken care of. They maybe abused but I doubt it's to the extreme of City Elves. A guard could probably rape and kill a City Elf and have not much happen to them as long as no one noticed. But said City Elf can't fight back like a mage. This has me thinking the Templar type of abuses would be far more rare.

Now making the Magi Tranquil against their wishes is very much an abuse and what the Templars would do with them after that? I mean it's all hypthetical. Just stating that for a City Elf, not fed or taken care of by others. Left to rot pretty much unless they can steal or find a job somewhere. Mages do not want in that regard. Emule's complaint was that he just didn't cook his own meal. City Elves may not eat for a week.

Mages do pay a price for what others of their kind did in the past. Elves have had to pay a price for Tevinter did thousands upon thousands of years ago. The Chantry was only the 2nd time they were almost crushed and put into servitude. To a point they both have it bad. Mages are more of a special case form of a abuse. When Elves do gain more standing or rank they are usually met with anger and punishement. Most humans tend to think of them as only servants/slaves. I'm sure there are outliers though.

So they both have it bad in the form of bigotry. Just there is one who can strike the fear in their enemies. The other just hopes that the humans won't beat them again today.

[Plaintiff]

I'd say mages, by a smidgeon. Elves are treated like ****, but they have more freedom. Just because mages have the capability to fight back doesn't justify their treatment.

[Aldandil]

I'd say (city) elves most likely have it worse. They probably have similar rights as mages: They exist on paper but not in reality. The events in the city elf origin story is a clear indication of that, and that takes place in Ferelden where the nobility is comparatively weak. The effects of the social stigma surrounding elves serves pretty much the same function as the templar oppression does for the mages. It was stated in the old forums that elves were perfectly free to leave the alienage and live wherever they wanted, but in such a case, they could pretty much count on being robbed by humans thinking they could get away with it (and rightfully so most of the time). They are more or less left with few other options but to live in squalor in the alienage. It's fair to assume that having magic powers isn't the worst thing that could happen to a city elf. The mages live in relative comfort, after all, and are not required to work unless so inclined.

As a side note, elves aren't considered human beings either (bud dum dum tsch).

[Torax]

"They planted a tree in the middle of the alienage long ago. Today it stands tall, healthy and green in sharp contrast to the city around it. For we are the poorest of the poor, the unwanted and the unwelcome huddled on the other side of the wall that separates us from the human part of the city. We are allowed to go there, to work on the docks or in their taverns and in their homes, but when dusk comes we must return. Any elf caught outside the alienage at night is likely to be mistaken for a sneak-thief or a pickpocket and let us be honest, the ones that stay out there at night probably are."

Don't get me wrong they both are basically prisoners in a sense. The Elves can leave during the day but they must return before sundown or a guard could probably kill them on sight. If an Elf even asked why their friend was killed? They could likely be punished in return for it. To a point the Dalish have it the best but it's a wilder life of roaming. Fending off bandits and trying not to have local villages rally at your presence. To a point just like mages they are born into what they are. Just one is by race. I will say besides a special case like Kirkwall's Circle, a City Elf could dream of being a mage and getting food, clothes that are clean, a home without rats, being allowed to read and the list goes on. Infact the Elf in the Magi Origin seemed actually proud to be in the Circle and not the Alienage.

Modifié par Torax, 12 avril 2011 - 10:00 .

[HighMoon]

Elven mages would probably have it the worst. Or elven apostate mages.

Hmm...I just had a random thought. Imagine the uproar if a female Qunari mage ended up becoming the next Divine. Political Maelstrom anyone?

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 12 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

In the Circle they are all equal. They are all mages. I'd say the City Elves are having it worst. They may have a better illusion of "freedom" but they live in extreme poverty for the most part. Then I rather live with a reduced freedom, and a nice meal three times a day.

[blothulfur]

Dwarven Casteless. Mages are pampered whiny babies and elves have a classic delight in their victim mentality, they've both got it easy compared to the casteless.

Mages supporters explosion in 5 4 3 2 1....

[EmperorSahlertz]

blothulfur wrote...

Dwarven Casteless. Mages are pampered whiny babies and elves have a classic delight in their victim mentality, they've both got it easy compared to the casteless.

Mages supporters explosion in 5 4 3 2 1....

Oh no you didn't... Brace for impact!

[JabbaDaHutt30]

casteless dwarves definitely seem to be treated worse than city elves...

[Xewaka]

Casteless dorfs are the worst off of the lot. City Elves are just whiny. Mages get free lodging and manteinance for no work, and are another bunch of whiners.

[Torax]

Xewaka wrote...

Casteless dorfs are the worst off of the lot. City Elves are just whiny. Mages get free lodging and manteinance for no work, and are another bunch of whiners.

I think most just focus on Elves cause of how the Humans have tried to take them out twice.

I think the better debate would be Castless vs. City Elf than even adding Mages into the equation. Castless are pretty screwed though. Not even allowed jobs. Branded at birth. List goes on. But the Mage lovers do like to believe they have it bad. Must suck living in a former Tevinter structure, meals each day. They let you read books, learn and to a point become better than you were. Castless and City Elves are both basically expected to stay to their stations of life. Both greatly held back by others who think of them as next to nothing. But it is sad that for so many dwarves the most dangerous place to live is in Orzimmar, especially if you are a "Brand".

[LobselVith8]

blothulfur wrote...

Dwarven Casteless. Mages are pampered whiny babies and elves have a classic delight in their victim mentality, they've both got it easy compared to the casteless.

Mages supporters explosion in 5 4 3 2 1....

That's why the Warden supports Bhelen for King - casteless get more freedoms and opportunity through his reign (or at least mine did). I wonder what it's like in Kal Sharok...

[JesterPsychotica]

Elves. They dont even get shoes to wear.

[earl of the north]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's why the Warden supports Bhelen for King - casteless get more freedoms and opportunity through his reign (or at least mine did). I wonder what it's like in Kal Sharok...

That's what the epilogue tells us at least, I've always taken that with a pinch of salt since Dwarfen history is written with the support of the noble houses......Bhelen's always going to get good press, even if he was a total disaster as king.

OP.......Casteless dwarfs and city elves are one and two with mages comming a distant third in the oppressed minority tables. I never had that much sympathy for the mages (in DAO) when I playing a city elf or dwarf commoner (or even as a dwarf noble).....whiny, over priviledged gits! 

Modifié par earl of the north, 12 avril 2011 - 02:13 .

[Girl on a Rock]

Kirkwall aside, it seems like most mages, even Circle mages, have it pretty sweet compared to City Elves, or even the Dalish, depending on your perspective. They may not have freedom, but poverty can be just as much of a prison as a tower - more so, in fact. Elves are generally deprived of education, resources, and their sense of history and cultural identity has been seriously diminished by the conquests of the humans. There are people in this thread who say that elves are at least royal subjects, but they're not treated as equals or as real people even - they're treated as an underclass, a subspecies, and are very casually referred to in derogatory terms throughout Thedas, it seems.

Mages are able to rebel even now because of the resources that have been made available to them; an elven rebellion would be much more difficult to incite, and pull off, because of the disadvantage elves are at.

[TEWR]

elven mages who aren't part of the Dalish clans. but if we're going to add casteless into this discussion, definitely casteless.

They are branded at birth as non-existent because of the sins of their fathers/mothers. They are given no chance for redemption, and are seen as less than nug ****. As a result of this, in order to survive they turn to a life of crime. The Dwarves see this as proof that they are unworthy of being dwarves, but they don't choose to turn to a life of crime. They are forced to so they don't die and keep their children fed.

Very few Dwarves see the idea of following Dwarven tradition with an obsession with a true heart and want change to happen. We have Bhelen, who brings reform if you crown him king. Travel down to Dust Town and talk to a casteless thug, and he mentions that Bhelen is recruiting casteless into the army. He's using whatever Orzammar's got. Then we have Denek Helmi, who says that most tavern keepers and smiths would make decent Deshyrs if they were only allowed. But alas, only the Noble Caste are allowed to, and these Nobles despise the very idea of change.

Tradition is all well and good, but stick to it too long and eventually you will rot from within. Change must happen to continue living. This is why Harrowmont is a bad ruler. Sticking to Dwarven Tradition when the Darkspawn are on your doorstep constantly and the Warrior Caste is gradually diminishing will eventually lead to the end of all Dwarves, save for those topside and possibly Kal-Sharok. Add into this the loss of the Golems until the Warden discovers the Anvil of the Void and decides whether it should remain in existence, and it's evident to even a lyrium-addled Dwarf that change must happen to ensure the Dwarven race continues for as long as possible.

Also look at Orta. At first we find her searching for old records to prove she is from House Ortan. These records have been lost sadly and her family are now commoners (I don't recall if a specific Caste was given). But once you find the records, which indicate upon examination that the last entry on there was 400 years ago, she is ecstatic to see them. She even says that her great-grandmother's name is on there. After taking these to the Assembly, they eventually recognize her claims and grant her the old seat her house held in the Assembly. No doubt from living as a commoner for so long that she will try to make lives better for them.

I think I wanted to add more, but I forgot what it was. Ah well. Also, how long is the lifespan of a Dwarf, normally?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2011 - 03:39 .

[RavenB]

I think it depend on where you are. In Ferelden, I think city elves had it worse. Loghain was selling them into slavery and the nobles were coming by for rape-time now and again. We didn't see that much in the Ferelden circle that was that far off. There's a comment from Anders that circle mages are sometimes raped and beaten, but did he mean in the Ferelden circle too, or just the Kirkwall circle? It's still a bit of a hard call, but I'd say city elves in Ferelden. In Kirkwall, I'd say mages definitely had it worse. But, basically, it just depends on where you're talking about.

[The Angry One]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

elven mages who aren't part of the Dalish clans

Irrelevant, elven mages are treated the same as any other mage in the circle.
In fact outside of Tevinter (which would also require them to be a mage), the Grey Wardens and the Qun the circles are the only way an elf is going to have a chance to gain a position of status.

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 avril 2011 - 03:09 .

[Addai]

Casteless, especially after Varric's description of the smell in Orzammar tunnels.

[TEWR]

The Angry One wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

elven mages who aren't part of the Dalish clans

Irrelevant, elven mages are treated the same as any other mage in the circle.
In fact outside of Tevinter (which would also require them to be a mage), the Grey Wardens and the Qun the circles are the only way an elf is going to have a chance to gain a position of status.

Meh I meant it as more of a joke. Not really meant as a serious thing. However I tend to forget that jokes do not transfer well over text without smiley faces.
 
I edited my post to reflect a serious point though regarding the Casteless

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[jmbrosendo]

The casteless no doubt, for Redux's reasons.

Although I venture that being a slave in the Tevinter Imperium does not sound pleasant. Elf or human.

[Herr Uhl]

Huon is all three, thus he has it worst.

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Huon is all three, thus he has it worst.

Not his fault, the dwarf who gave him the tattoo told him it was an S for "success".