77 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Huon is all three, thus he has it worst.

oh god.... that stupid insane wife-killing elf.

[Emperor Iaius I]

jmbrosendo wrote...

The casteless no doubt, for Redux's reasons.

Although I venture that being a slave in the Tevinter Imperium does not sound pleasant. Elf or human.

City elves and casteless have little to no prospects of social advancement. They're stuck with their lot. I'd say that the city elves have it worse only because they're forced into that position for racial reasons, even if they belong to a society that would otherwise recognize (limited) social advancement.

By contrast, slaves in Tevinter have the potential to become magisters. The vast majority lack this potential only to the extent that the majority of the populace also lacks this potential. There's equality of sorts there.

[TEWR]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

jmbrosendo wrote...

The casteless no doubt, for Redux's reasons.

Although I venture that being a slave in the Tevinter Imperium does not sound pleasant. Elf or human.

City elves and casteless have little to no prospects of social advancement. They're stuck with their lot. I'd say that the city elves have it worse only because they're forced into that position for racial reasons, even if they belong to a society that would otherwise recognize (limited) social advancement.

By contrast, slaves in Tevinter have the potential to become magisters. The vast majority lack this potential only to the extent that the majority of the populace also lacks this potential. There's equality of sorts there.

true there's a chance for advancement in Tevinter, but sadly not enough because it's a very rare thing to occur. So most slaves are stuck with being slaves. Unless someone like Fenris comes along, fights for something, and gives his boon to his family so they can be free. And then many years later his sister is a douche.

[blothulfur]

Course the Saarebas have a rough old time of it but then again like the Casteless they don't whine and moan about it they just endure and adapt, always reminds me of Sigrun talking about the alienages in such fond terms and wondering why anybody would resent living there.

The Casteless are just so tough they don't even see their ghettoes as that bad, and this is why the dwarves are prospering on the surface they are busy making the most out of life not sitting in a corner blubbing listening to Limp Biscuit and whining that the nasty templar/human doesn't wuve them.

Now that's gotta fuel the fires of outrage.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The something he fought for was an opportunity given to him by his master, though.

[The Angry One]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The something he fought for was an opportunity given to him by his master, though.

Probably because he was raised as a gladiator in the first place.

[tmp7704]

KJandrew wrote...

So who do you think has it worse off: Mage or Elf or Casteless?

Someone post the DA2 Zevran picture to /thread.

[barryl89]

blothulfur wrote...

Course the Saarebas have a rough old time of it but then again like the Casteless they don't whine and moan about it they just endure and adapt, always reminds me of Sigrun talking about the alienages in such fond terms and wondering why anybody would resent living there.

The Casteless are just so tough they don't even see their ghettoes as that bad, and this is why the dwarves are prospering on the surface they are busy making the most out of life not sitting in a corner blubbing listening to Limp Biscuit and whining that the nasty templar/human doesn't wuve them.

Now that's gotta fuel the fires of outrage.

OMG how could you say that


But yes your right. The casteless and the Saarebas are the worst off but they don't get the press because they accept it and move on with life. As for the circle mages, they just have an inflated sense of entitlement. They used to rule the world, now they are kept in a comfy little school for magic. The casteless, city elves and tevinter slaves would love to live in the tower. Saarebas probably wouldn't.

[jmbrosendo]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

jmbrosendo wrote...

The casteless no doubt, for Redux's reasons.

Although I venture that being a slave in the Tevinter Imperium does not sound pleasant. Elf or human.

City elves and casteless have little to no prospects of social advancement. They're stuck with their lot. I'd say that the city elves have it worse only because they're forced into that position for racial reasons, even if they belong to a society that would otherwise recognize (limited) social advancement.

By contrast, slaves in Tevinter have the potential to become magisters. The vast majority lack this potential only to the extent that the majority of the populace also lacks this potential. There's equality of sorts there.

City elves are in contrast allowed to take up jobs, setup shops, move from city to city(with permits granted), or to the countryside, serve the army as servants from which they receive pay. All of which are denied to the casteless. Most of their issues are traced to the fact they are generally poor, outright racism, and the stigma of centuries of past slavery which portrays them as servants of humans, always socially inferior.

They rank at the bottom of society but are not considered as non citizens, non existent, and better off dead as the casteless.

All the comments I've heard in game regarding Tevinter treatment of slaves and codex entries, makes them little more than cattle. A slight minority may escape this fate, by chance or inborn magic ability, but a slave is property and worth as much as a cow or pig in that country.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Nonsense. I'm sure the value of their labor is greater than the meat contained in a cow or pig. Slaves certainly cost a lot more to maintain than animals do--why go through the substantial effort if one does not expect a return on the investment?

[KyleOrdrum]

I can't really say if the casteless or city elves have it worse. While the casteless have "no chance for advancement" they can up and leave for the surface. They only stay because of an ongoing superstition of falling up. By the same token, the city elves could fall off the grid and seek out the dalish. Thinking about it, I have to say it leans slightly towards the casteless simply because a few people do try to look out for the city elves and feel for their plight. At the same time, the casteless have the sympathy of someone who may or may not become king (depending on player choices). As well, depending on the outcome, Alistair or Anora may have taken steps to ease things on the elves in their region. As such this argument cannot really be made as the side with more problems relates to choices made by the player.

[barryl89]

KyleOrdrum wrote...

I can't really say if the casteless or city elves have it worse. While the casteless have "no chance for advancement" they can up and leave for the surface. They only stay because of an ongoing superstition of falling up. By the same token, the city elves could fall off the grid and seek out the dalish. Thinking about it, I have to say it leans slightly towards the casteless simply because a few people do try to look out for the city elves and feel for their plight. At the same time, the casteless have the sympathy of someone who may or may not become king (depending on player choices). As well, depending on the outcome, Alistair or Anora may have taken steps to ease things on the elves in their region. As such this argument cannot really be made as the side with more problems relates to choices made by the player.

I tend to dismiss the endings of Origins because they are not all going to have happened the same for everyone. Until there is a canon set out for Origins I'll pretend its the same as before the warden came .

And DA really needs a set lore from origins on, otherwise he series will wither and lose all direction, like in DA2.

[Alamar2078]

I always got the feeling that the Casteless were the lowest of the low. The Circle Mages of Fereldon seemed [by-and-large] to be treated reasonably well even though they had limited freedoms. City Elves are often victims of crime, discrimination, etc. While they have the illusion of freedom I think they have it pretty bad.

Even worse are the Casteless [that stay in Orzammar]. They literally don't exist, have no official rights, are discriminated against, etc. The Casteless may have a harder time adjusting to life outside with the open sky so it's not even simple to run away.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

[TEWR]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

False. They took in Pol and treated him as their own, who was a city-elf. It's not that they don't want to help. They do. It's that if they were to just go into a human city like Denerim, they would not be met with a warm reception

[Mnemnosyne]

Casteless clearly have it worst of all. I wouldn't say there's any question about that, considering that both legally and functionally they have no rights and are treated as though they don't exist, if they're lucky.

After that, the question becomes one of 'legally, or functionally?'

Legally it seems as though elves are theoretically supposed to be the same as other citizens, while mages have almost no legal rights, and those which they do have are at the discretion of the templars. So on paper, mages have it worse - and in some situations under some Knight-Commanders, they functionally have it worse as well.

But functionally, it seems clear the elves aren't really protected by the law and such, and are only a step up from the casteless in that they can at least get some recognition from time to time. On the other hand, they also are pretty much free to do whatever they want in their own slums, and they can at least get married, have children, and a few of them can actually move up in the world by becoming successful merchants and whatnot.

So I would say that it really depends on what the conditions of the particular Circle we're talking about are. In most cases, elves probably have it worse than mages as far as the general population, but the exceptional elf has far more chances for advancement than the exceptional mage.

[Ansatsusha]

City elves. I'm replaying Origins as an elf mage and a few hours ago I just talked to that other elf mage dude sitting behind that huge desk, and he was like, "The circle is so much better than the alienage!" Or something along the lines.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

False. They took in Pol and treated him as their own, who was a city-elf. It's not that they don't want to help. They do. It's that if they were to just go into a human city like Denerim, they would not be met with a warm reception

They treat city elves who are willing to abandon their faith pretty well.  I can't imagine them welcoming an Andrastean.

[stobie]

Casteless dwarves - they're considered non-persons, whereas mages are at least respected for their skills. (and feared, and thus, subjugation attempts ensue) City Elves are in the middle, and seem to be held down by poverty and psychological repression. On the other hand, I'm assuming a purge of alienages is akin to a circle annulment. But mages are told they're cursed/powerful and must be contained - or taught to manage their power. City Elves are told they're just generally lesser, which puts them in the middle of 'we have it bad.'

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

False. They took in Pol and treated him as their own, who was a city-elf. It's not that they don't want to help. They do. It's that if they were to just go into a human city like Denerim, they would not be met with a warm reception

It all depends on the clan the city Elf encounter though. Marethari was leading a more open -minded clan, considering city Elves. He could have been unlucky and encountered one of those openly hostile ones.

[Bobad]

I feel the city elves have it the worst, at least the others have been properly renderered for the most part in their various incarnations, whereas DA2's background elves look like them things from Blade 2, yes, them ones.

[DeathStride]

Easy. Only one of those groups isn't free to make it's own decisions and will be hunted down like animals if they ever leave their designated areas aka prisons.

City elves and castless both have bad living conditions, but only because they're, forgive my harsh phrasing, idiots who choose to continue living in those conditions. If castless wanted to, they could go above ground and become merchants/smiths/mercenaries or whatever they want really. There have been numerous examples in the games of castless doing so in the two games.

City elves are basically dalish elves without an ounce of self-respect or self-reliance. They foolishly think they need to or have to live in the city or are just too lazy to try anything else so they stay in those terrible and oppressive alienages instead of growing a pair like the Dalish and doing something about their situation.

Like I said, only mages will be hunted and killed if they try to leave and live in what can quite justifiably be called slavery and have to suffer such things like the Rite of Tranquility. All 3 groups are oppressed, only 1 is held under pain of death.

Modifié par DeathStride, 12 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[primero holodon]

well, the mages are probably the worst off as far as freedom is concerned, but they are at least taken care of, but the elves have been reduced to nomads who've all but lost their culture or live in the worst part of the slums which are heavy with disease and crime, The catless also live in slums, but they still have their culture, and if they went to the surface they'd have a better shot at a decent life than the city elves.

[DeathStride]

primero holodon wrote...
well, the mages are probably the worst off as far as freedom is concerned, but they are at least taken care of, but the elves have been reduced to nomads who've all but lost their culture or live in the worst part of the slums which are heavy with disease and crime, The catless also live in slums, but they still have their culture, and if they went to the surface they'd have a better shot at a decent life than the city elves.

Anybody else notice how two out of the three of the main oppressed groups in Thedas mentioned in the OP are in their present conditions because of the Chantry?

Exalted Marches against the Tevinter Imperium at least had decent reasons, but against the Dales?? There are a lot of good people in the Chantry, but they are more than balanced by people like Sister Petrice. The whole institution is flawed and corrupted- the fact that it holds itself as the "moral authority" of Thedas is bitter, bitter irony.

Modifié par DeathStride, 12 avril 2011 - 08:59 .

[Herr Uhl]

DeathStride wrote...

Anybody else notice how two out of the three of the main oppressed groups in Thedas mentioned in the OP are in their present conditions because of the Chantry?

Considering that the ones that have it worst (imo) are due to the Qunari (saarebas and workers), dwarves (casteless) and Tevinter (slaves), I'd say that all the present systems are flawed.