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[DeathStride]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DeathStride wrote...
Anybody else notice how two out of the three of the main oppressed groups in Thedas mentioned in the OP are in their present conditions because of the Chantry?

Considering that the ones that have it worst (imo) are due to the Qunari (saarebas and workers), dwarves (casteless) and Tevinter (slaves), I'd say that all the present systems are flawed.

Agreed that all the major systems are messed up. Also agreed that the saarebas's plight outstrips pretty much any of the others except maybe Tevinter slaves. Those two might be equal.

[Rifneno]

blothulfur wrote...

Dwarven Casteless. Mages are pampered whiny babies and elves have a classic delight in their victim mentality, they've both got it easy compared to the casteless.

Mages supporters explosion in 5 4 3 2 1....

As one of the loudest mage supporters here...  I agree with you.  Casteless have it worse then mages or city elves.  All three groups, however, are treated badly enough that a rebellion is on order.

[Deified Data]

Mages Pros: Free accomodations, books, education; lifestyle generally on-par with that of your typical medieval noble.
Mages Cons: Condemned by the dominant faith as sub-humans, conditions vary depending on Circle, no freedom to explore the wider world

Elf Pros: Rich sense of community with scarce, but real opportunities for advancement, proud tradition of independence
Elf Cons: Condemned by the dominant culture as sub-human, generally not protected by the law, live in squallor

Casteless Pros: Opportunity awaits if they decide to become Surfacers
Casteless Cons: Live in squallor, not protected by the law, condemned by dominant culture as sub-dwarf, prone to quick, violent deaths

...

All in all, I think the casteless have it worst. That being said, they have the most opportunity to advance of the three if they decide to go to the surface. Those casteless that live in Orzammar, however, are almost better off dead.

[The Angry One]

The casteless situation is getting a little better if Bhelen is in charge though.
Might actually be preferable to being a noble right now given that any noble that Bhelen doesn't like is getting shanked by his death squads.

[Torax]

The Angry One wrote...

The casteless situation is getting a little better if Bhelen is in charge though.
Might actually be preferable to being a noble right now given that any noble that Bhelen doesn't like is getting shanked by his death squads.

Granted I think the most opportunity the Castless are getting is probably joining the Legion of the Dead and that is about it.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

The casteless situation is getting a little better if Bhelen is in charge though.
Might actually be preferable to being a noble right now given that any noble that Bhelen doesn't like is getting shanked by his death squads.

So true.  I think that was Bioware's best morally grey choice.

[Ivers0803]

Its easy for a castless to stop being casteless all he would have to do is go to the surface. You cant escape being an elf or mage

[Torax]

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The casteless situation is getting a little better if Bhelen is in charge though.
Might actually be preferable to being a noble right now given that any noble that Bhelen doesn't like is getting shanked by his death squads.

So true.  I think that was Bioware's best morally grey choice.

I think you mean the only one that didn't have a Sugar Happy Fun Time solution to a problem.

[Torax]

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its easy for a castless to stop being casteless all he would have to do is go to the surface. You cant escape being an elf or mage

Not necessarily. I think even many surface dwarves would look down on a brand.

[Ivers0803]

Torax wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its easy for a castless to stop being casteless all he would have to do is go to the surface. You cant escape being an elf or mage

Not necessarily. I think even many surface dwarves would look down on a brand.

Most humans wont even know what the tatoo is and acoording to the novels it can be removed with magic or something.

[Ooga600]

Overall, the city elves i guess. The situation at the Kirkwall Circle isn't really the norm.

Modifié par Ooga600, 12 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

False. They took in Pol and treated him as their own, who was a city-elf. It's not that they don't want to help. They do. It's that if they were to just go into a human city like Denerim, they would not be met with a warm reception

They treat city elves who are willing to abandon their faith pretty well.  I can't imagine them welcoming an Andrastean.

and yet Pol is still an Andrastian. He's trying to be Dalish, but he keeps saying Praise Andraste. Then he says Praise the Creators. Like in Merrill's Arulin'holm quest.

Plus there's nothing to say a person can't believe in two faiths. It's odd, but not unheard of. The Dalish are not as heartless as they are made out to be.

[earl of the north]

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its easy for a castless to stop being casteless all he would have to do is go to the surface. You cant escape being an elf or mage

Sure all you have to do is abandon the only way of life you know, travel through a city (avoiding the guards since its illegal for you to be out of dust town) to the only exit and then make a life outside on the surface where the local are glad to take you in and teach you a trade (since you don't actually have any experience in farming, trading, what's safe to eat etc).......unless you're connected with some surface dwarfs already or just luck out like Dorin (spelling?) who got taken in by a trading clan you're pretty much screwed if you just wander up to the surface.

Most surface dwarfs seem to come from exiled noble clans, trading clans or crime syndicates rather than individuals seeking a better life in an almost mythical place (which the outside would be to an uneducated, dirt poor duster).

Its possible, but its equally possible for a city elf to run away and join the dalish or a mage to escape the circle.

Modifié par earl of the north, 12 avril 2011 - 09:40 .

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and yet Pol is still an Andrastian. He's trying to be Dalish, but he keeps saying Praise Andraste. Then he says Praise the Creators. Like in Merrill's Arulin'holm quest.

Pol has converted, he just hasn't quite managed to update his vocabulary.  Though I guess this sort of thing is why he's still not got his tattoo

Plus there's nothing to say a person can't believe in two faiths. It's odd, but not unheard of. The Dalish are not as heartless as they are made out to be.

You can't be an Andrastean and worship heathen gods.

[Rockpopple]

I'd say slaves have it worse than all of them put together.

But outside Tevinter? Probably the casteless.

[TEWR]

earl of the north wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its easy for a castless to stop being casteless all he would have to do is go to the surface. You cant escape being an elf or mage

Sure all you have to do is abandon the only way of life you know, travel through a city (avoiding the guards since its illegal for you to be out of dust town) to the only exit and then make a life outside on the surface where the local are glad to take you in and teach you a trade (since you don't actually have any experience in farming, trading, what's safe to eat etc).......unless you're connected with some surface dwarfs already or just luck out like Dorin (spelling?) who got taken in by a trading clan you're pretty much screwed if you just wander up to the surface.

Most surface dwarfs seem to come from exiled noble clans, trading clans or crime syndicates rather than individuals seeking a better life in an almost mythical place (which the outside would be to an uneducated, dirt poor duster).

Its possible, but its equally possible for a city elf to run away and join the dalish or a mage to escape the circle.

Not to mention Dwarves are afraid they'll fall up into the sky. Ah good old propagandist lies to put some fear in your citizens so they won't leave.

[Ivers0803]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

earl of the north wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

Its easy for a castless to stop being casteless all he would have to do is go to the surface. You cant escape being an elf or mage

Sure all you have to do is abandon the only way of life you know, travel through a city (avoiding the guards since its illegal for you to be out of dust town) to the only exit and then make a life outside on the surface where the local are glad to take you in and teach you a trade (since you don't actually have any experience in farming, trading, what's safe to eat etc).......unless you're connected with some surface dwarfs already or just luck out like Dorin (spelling?) who got taken in by a trading clan you're pretty much screwed if you just wander up to the surface.

Most surface dwarfs seem to come from exiled noble clans, trading clans or crime syndicates rather than individuals seeking a better life in an almost mythical place (which the outside would be to an uneducated, dirt poor duster).

Its possible, but its equally possible for a city elf to run away and join the dalish or a mage to escape the circle.

Not to mention Dwarves are afraid they'll fall up into the sky. Ah good old propagandist lies to put some fear in your citizens so they won't leave.

Yes but there is a chance. If a mage is taken to the circle there is almost no chance of escape. Wherever an Elf goes they will be discriminated. Noble hunters are also common so there is a chance of gaining a caste. Alienages are dirty and overcrowed.  All of the groups have it pretty badly, but some members of theses groups accept their life 

[Torax]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and yet Pol is still an Andrastian. He's trying to be Dalish, but he keeps saying Praise Andraste. Then he says Praise the Creators. Like in Merrill's Arulin'holm quest.

Pol has converted, he just hasn't quite managed to update his vocabulary.  Though I guess this sort of thing is why he's still not got his tattoo

Plus there's nothing to say a person can't believe in two faiths. It's odd, but not unheard of. The Dalish are not as heartless as they are made out to be.

You can't be an Andrastean and worship heathen gods.

On the Contrary. It's only the Chantry who thinks they are Heathens. The Pantheon were not creators. A simple fact that the Chantry wouldn't recognize and used as an excuse to march with.

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and yet Pol is still an Andrastian. He's trying to be Dalish, but he keeps saying Praise Andraste. Then he says Praise the Creators. Like in Merrill's Arulin'holm quest.

Pol has converted, he just hasn't quite managed to update his vocabulary.  Though I guess this sort of thing is why he's still not got his tattoo

Plus there's nothing to say a person can't believe in two faiths. It's odd, but not unheard of. The Dalish are not as heartless as they are made out to be.

You can't be an Andrastean and worship heathen gods.

On the Contrary. It's only the Chantry who thinks they are Heathens. The Pantheon were not creators. A simple fact that the Chantry wouldn't recognize and used as an excuse to march with.

yup. They're only called 'The Creators', but never once are they called Creators of anything. They are more protectors of the Elves than actual creators, as no lore has said elves were created by any of these gods.

[Alex Kershaw]

Casteless.

Mages aren't even treated badly - only in the super exaggerated world of Kirkwall where there had to be a good/bad split for Bioware's new target market. In Origins, the control on the Fereldan circle was fine. Wynne was allowed to leave and follow the Warden, the mages helped at Ostagar, the mages can go to help Connor without templar supervision, the Warden can convince Gregoir not to envoke the right of annullment, etc...

Elves lhave a lower quality of life but I don't think there's any question that it's worse than the castless?

[Girl on a Rock]

The Angry One wrote...

The casteless situation is getting a little better if Bhelen is in charge though.
Might actually be preferable to being a noble right now given that any noble that Bhelen doesn't like is getting shanked by his death squads.

I kind of love you.

Modifié par Girl on a Rock, 13 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not to mention Dwarves are afraid they'll fall up into the sky. Ah good old propagandist lies to put some fear in your citizens so they won't leave.

It's likely less propaganda (after all, why should they care about someone that 'doesn't exist'?) and more environment. They're always used to there being something overhead, be it roof or cavern ceilling. Even in the Commons they can see there's a barrior of rock up there.

Then they get to the surface and boom! Nothing above you but emptiness. The whole culture (casted and casteless) have in ingrained case of agorapobia.

Casteless have it worse. Hands down. Even Seerebas could be concidered higher. They are at least acknowledged as living and with purpose for the culture/nation as a whole. Same with the Tevinter slaves, they have 'jobs' and roles. Yes both can be killed almost on a whim, but so can a casteless dwarf. Often right in front of a guard and they won't do anything except complain about the blood.

[TEWR]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not to mention Dwarves are afraid they'll fall up into the sky. Ah good old propagandist lies to put some fear in your citizens so they won't leave.

It's likely less propaganda (after all, why should they care about someone that 'doesn't exist'?) and more environment. They're always used to there being something overhead, be it roof or cavern ceilling. Even in the Commons they can see there's a barrior of rock up there.

Then they get to the surface and boom! Nothing above you but emptiness. The whole culture (casted and casteless) have in ingrained case of agorapobia.

Casteless have it worse. Hands down. Even Seerebas could be concidered higher. They are at least acknowledged as living and with purpose for the culture/nation as a whole. Same with the Tevinter slaves, they have 'jobs' and roles. Yes both can be killed almost on a whim, but so can a casteless dwarf. Often right in front of a guard and they won't do anything except complain about the blood.

I can actually see how grim and despicable it would possibly play out:

Dwarven Guard A: You there! Brand! Where did you get that nug?! You stole it didn't you?!
Casteless Dwarf: I didn't steal anything! I found this nug while doing some work for a merchant in the Deep Roads! My family is starving!
Dwarven Guard A: A likely story. You're coming with me!
Casteless: But I didn't do anything! Why do you people despise us for crimes we didn't commit?! Why are you so far mired in your precious tradition that it goes up your arse and through your mouth?! Oh what's the point....
Dwarven Guard A: Quit resisting arrest! *pulls out sword and kills unlucky Casteless who wasn't resisting arrest*
Dwarven Guard B: Oh come on! Garrak, you got brand-blood all over my brand new armor! Now I have to work extra hard tonight to get the blood out, and even then it's still tainted with his hideous essence! You're buying me a pint. NOW. Right now!








Personally, I'm in favor of capturing some schleets and giving them to the Casteless to use against these stupid traditionalist Dwarves.

[Joy Divison]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

False. They took in Pol and treated him as their own, who was a city-elf. It's not that they don't want to help. They do. It's that if they were to just go into a human city like Denerim, they would not be met with a warm reception

My "flat ear" city elf Gray Warden was not exactly welcomed being that she "differed little from her flat-ear masters."

The Dalish make consistent references that city elves are not "real" elves.  Lanaya (spelling?) and Pol are the exceptions which prove the rule.

[TEWR]

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Dalish aren't exactly kind to flat-ears.

False. They took in Pol and treated him as their own, who was a city-elf. It's not that they don't want to help. They do. It's that if they were to just go into a human city like Denerim, they would not be met with a warm reception

My "flat ear" city elf Gray Warden was not exactly welcomed being that she "differed little from her flat-ear masters."

The Dalish make consistent references that city elves are not "real" elves.  Lanaya (spelling?) and Pol are the exceptions which prove the rule.

I don't think it has to do with all Dalish though. The DE Origin clan was very welcoming, yet Zathrian's was rude upon arrival (did they all treat CE warden with disdain?). It's more of a clan to clan thing. But to generalize it like Iaius did saying all Dalish aren't kind to city elves is wrong.

Plus, they consistently state that when they get a land of their own, all elves will return home and be met with open arms and their old glory will be renewed. So if all Dalish hated city elves, they'd just say "only we true elves will regain our former glory. **** the rest of you"