131 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

Just watched Finding Nathaniel with Bethany as a warden. Just one more reason to don''t make her one.

Hawke: You don't look well Bethany. Are you injured?
Bethany: Injured? I have the darkspawn taint forever in my veins, barely held in check by the wardens ritual! ... I'm sorry. You did the best you could.

Na, man. I just can't watch the depressed Bethany. No Deep Roads expedition for her.

[Icy Magebane]

Well I can't make Bethany a Circle Mage because I annul them every time... it would be hypocritical not to kill every mage, so sparing her is out of the question. And since I'd rather not deal with this at all, she goes to the Grey Wardens every time. Except that one time she died because Hawke couldn't get along with Anders at all, and therefore would not take him on any missions.

I can understand why she doesn't want to be a Warden, what with the nightmares and the unending horrors of the Deep Roads... too bad. It's better than dying. Although I might do a run where I take Anders AND let her die of the taint, since she hates the idea so much...

[Annarl]

It's a hard choice. I have played it with both choices. And personally I like her going to the circle. She seems happier there. And you can still have a relationship with her (visiting her). And post game the circles have been brought down she may be free. My MHawke wouldn't have returned her to the circle. We just leave.

[Rockpopple]

Well my 1st playthrough I left her at home only cuz Leandra begged me to. I was planning on taking her, but being the responsible older brother I had to respect mom's wishes. So she stayed. Imagine my surprise when Cullen was dragging her out of the house and Bethany was begging me not to make a scene. Though I was playing a diplomatic Hawke, I threatened to take Cullen's head off.

Ah well. I've already spoiled myself as to how Bethany reacts to being a Warden. She's bitter and miserable at first, but in the end I think she gets over most of that anger. She's only what, 19 when she becomes a GW?

[Darkhour]

You can kill your own sister?  Why would you do that?

[The Angry One]

Darkhour wrote...

You can kill your own sister?  Why would you do that?

Lumbering me with her evil daughter who makes me watch terrible Disney Channel shows?

... oh you meant Bethany. 

[TobiTobsen]

Rockpopple wrote...

Well my 1st playthrough I left her at home only cuz Leandra begged me to. I was planning on taking her, but being the responsible older brother I had to respect mom's wishes. So she stayed. Imagine my surprise when Cullen was dragging her out of the house and Bethany was begging me not to make a scene. Though I was playing a diplomatic Hawke, I threatened to take Cullen's head off.

You mean you screamed "About my dead body!!!" and then you stepped politely aside? I hate that part. Sure Bethany... "don't make a scene". Why should Hawke? Maybe because he sacrificed the last 19 years of his life for you? Why would he possibly make a scene?

Does that scene play out different if you don't play a diplomatic Hawke? Gets angry Hawke more angry?

Rockpopple wrote...
Ah well. I've already spoiled myself as to how Bethany reacts to being a Warden. She's bitter and miserable at first, but in the end I think she gets over most of that anger. She's only what, 19 when she becomes a GW?

Meh... so she can die with 49, after years of nightmares, constant fighting and being as unnormal as possible. Na... I just can not convince myself to make her one.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 14 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Halo Quea]

Making her a Grey Warden is a DEATH sentence. You're not doing the poor girl any favors by handing her over to the Wardens where she will be endlessly battling dark spawn for the remainder of her taint shortened years.

I can't believe that any of you stand by the decision to give her to the Wardens.

Bethany WANTS to go the Circle, she's tired of running and putting the rest of the family at risk. Hiding has caused fear and anxiety to be a central focus in her life, a death sentence in the Deep Roads is NOT an improvement. The odd thing is that she would have faired far better in the Circle in Ferelden.

[AlexMBrennan]

Personally I don't think the grey warden outcome is all that "happily every after" as some replies suggest (which the Warden you encounter points out); she just wants to be normal and you doom her to an hopefully early death in battle (otherwise, broodmother).

[Halo Quea]

TobiTobsen wrote...

You mean you screamed "About my dead body!!!" and then you stepped politely aside? I hate that part. Sure Bethany... "don't make a scene". Why should Hawke? Maybe because he sacrificed the last 19 years of his life for you? Why would he possibly make a scene? 

Does that scene play out different if you don't play a diplomatic Hawke? Gets angry Hawke more angry? 

I bet if there was some coin in it Hawke might have done something.   He doesn't seem to care about much else going on in this game.  <_<

[Icy Magebane]

Halo Quea wrote...

Making her a Grey Warden is a DEATH sentence. You're not doing the poor girl any favors by handing her over to the Wardens where she will be endlessly battling dark spawn for the remainder of her taint shortened years.

I can't believe that any of you stand by the decision to give her to the Wardens.

Bethany WANTS to go the Circle, she's tired of running and putting the rest of the family at risk. Hiding has caused fear and anxiety to be a central focus in her life, a death sentence in the Deep Roads is NOT an improvement. The odd thing is that she would have faired far better in the Circle in Ferelden.

Is there some point in Act 1 where she says she wants to go to the Circle?  I don't remember hearing that... all she does is complain about being hunted by Templars and not wanting to be separated from her family.  It seems like the logical response would be to take her with you into the Deep Roads so that she's not left alone (and vulnerable to being grabbed by Templars).  It's not Hawke's fault that she gets tainted down there... he has no way of knowing that will happen.  And if Anders is around... well, I just have a hard time killing Bethany if there's an option to save her life.  Yeah, being a Warden is difficult, but their cousin was the Hero of Ferelden.  It can't be that bad.

Based on the information you have at the time, making her a Warden is reasonable.

[Halo Quea]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Making her a Grey Warden is a DEATH sentence. You're not doing the poor girl any favors by handing her over to the Wardens where she will be endlessly battling dark spawn for the remainder of her taint shortened years.

I can't believe that any of you stand by the decision to give her to the Wardens.

Bethany WANTS to go the Circle, she's tired of running and putting the rest of the family at risk. Hiding has caused fear and anxiety to be a central focus in her life, a death sentence in the Deep Roads is NOT an improvement. The odd thing is that she would have faired far better in the Circle in Ferelden.

Is there some point in Act 1 where she says she wants to go to the Circle?  I don't remember hearing that... all she does is complain about being hunted by Templars and not wanting to be separated from her family.  It seems like the logical response would be to take her with you into the Deep Roads so that she's not left alone (and vulnerable to being grabbed by Templars).  It's not Hawke's fault that she gets tainted down there... he has no way of knowing that will happen.  And if Anders is around... well, I just have a hard time killing Bethany if there's an option to save her life.  Yeah, being a Warden is difficult, but their cousin was the Hero of Ferelden.  It can't be that bad.

Based on the information you have at the time, making her a Warden is reasonable.

Logical? Reasonable?   You're kidding right?

Come on now, you played the first game, you know what the Deep Roads are like.   You'd really turn your little sister over to that?  The risk of her possibly being captured and becoming a Brood Mother, or the higher than normal chance she'll get killed even before that? 

[TobiTobsen]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Making her a Grey Warden is a DEATH sentence. You're not doing the poor girl any favors by handing her over to the Wardens where she will be endlessly battling dark spawn for the remainder of her taint shortened years.

I can't believe that any of you stand by the decision to give her to the Wardens.

Bethany WANTS to go the Circle, she's tired of running and putting the rest of the family at risk. Hiding has caused fear and anxiety to be a central focus in her life, a death sentence in the Deep Roads is NOT an improvement. The odd thing is that she would have faired far better in the Circle in Ferelden.

Is there some point in Act 1 where she says she wants to go to the Circle?  I don't remember hearing that... all she does is complain about being hunted by Templars and not wanting to be separated from her family.  It seems like the logical response would be to take her with you into the Deep Roads so that she's not left alone (and vulnerable to being grabbed by Templars).  It's not Hawke's fault that she gets tainted down there... he has no way of knowing that will happen.  And if Anders is around... well, I just have a hard time killing Bethany if there's an option to save her life.  Yeah, being a Warden is difficult, but their cousin was the Hero of Ferelden.  It can't be that bad.

Based on the information you have at the time, making her a Warden is reasonable.

She mentions it in her talk with Hawke after her quest in the family estate. She is tired of runnig and asking herself if the circle would be really that bad and doesn't want to endanger the family any longer.

And we have this banter :

Aveline: I'm sorry I couldn't get you more information about the Circle, Bethany. It's difficult without naming you.
Bethany: Thank you for being discreet. I don't want the templars at my door.
Aveline: No one does.
Bethany: Let them corral the troublemakers. I just want information.
Aveline: Right. Right.
Bethany: It sounds like I'm trying to convince myself, doesn't it?
Aveline: I wouldn't have said. But yes.

[Iosev]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Making her a Grey Warden is a DEATH sentence. You're not doing the poor girl any favors by handing her over to the Wardens where she will be endlessly battling dark spawn for the remainder of her taint shortened years.

I can't believe that any of you stand by the decision to give her to the Wardens.

Bethany WANTS to go the Circle, she's tired of running and putting the rest of the family at risk. Hiding has caused fear and anxiety to be a central focus in her life, a death sentence in the Deep Roads is NOT an improvement. The odd thing is that she would have faired far better in the Circle in Ferelden.

Is there some point in Act 1 where she says she wants to go to the Circle?  I don't remember hearing that... all she does is complain about being hunted by Templars and not wanting to be separated from her family.  It seems like the logical response would be to take her with you into the Deep Roads so that she's not left alone (and vulnerable to being grabbed by Templars).  It's not Hawke's fault that she gets tainted down there... he has no way of knowing that will happen.  And if Anders is around... well, I just have a hard time killing Bethany if there's an option to save her life.  Yeah, being a Warden is difficult, but their cousin was the Hero of Ferelden.  It can't be that bad.

Based on the information you have at the time, making her a Warden is reasonable.

In party banter, it's revealed that she has asked Aveline to get more information on the Circle.  In dialogue with Hawke, she wonders if it may have been better if she went to the Circle.  In conversation with Merrill she talks about wanting a normal life.

[Rockpopple]

@ Halo Quea - Bethany does not want to go to the Circle. She's just tired of running. Take her along to see Karl, and you see that she's terrified of being made Tranquil. She talks about how she's afraid of the Templars. "As just as his cause is (Anders), this scares me. I don't want to be a target of the Templars" to paraphrase. There are other examples where she's clear in her desire to be free. But she's also tired of being a burden on her family. She just learns to cope in the Circle. She's a bright girl and she adapts.

@ TobiTobsen - Yeah, I hated that Hawke didn't fight more too, but I basically put it up to Hawke a) not wanting to cause Bethany any more trauma and not wanting himself and his family thrown into prison. They've been running from Templars all their lives and now they've been caught. Gigs over. If they fight, they all die. Hawke's smart enough to know this.

Tho I still wanted to tear Cullen's head off.

Anyway, what's the average life-span of a Thedan? Or a Marcher? 49 seems short to us, but I doubt many people live to be over 70. Being a Grey Warden's not a glamorous life, but it's a noble calling and who knows? If you're lucky you might get to slay an Archdemon and be glorified forever.

And since there's little risk of pregnancy or (I assume) STD's, I'm sure Grey Warden's get action 24/7.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 14 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[Icy Magebane]

@Halo Quea: Hawke hasn't been in the Deep Roads. He doesn't know about Broodmothers or all the freaking gore and other gross stuff that's normally on the walls. All he knows is that Grey Wardens fight darkspawn. Also, Anders doesn't mention that your lifespan is shortened, so he wouldn't know about that either.

@TobiTobsen: I recall her saying that if she had gone to the Circle, then Hawke would have been nothing more than a name in her file. While I will agree that she seemed tired of running, I'm still not convinced that she wanted to go to the Circle. If that was the case, why not just turn herself in before the Expedition? As for that exchange with Aveline... Yeah, I can see how she would be curious. That doesn't mean she wanted to go there.

Look, if Bethany is happier as a Circle Mage, then that's great. All I'm saying is that unless you already know how the story plays out, Hawke would have no reason to leave her behind and risk capture. I'm not really a fan of metagaming...

@arcelonius:  "Wanting a normal life" means she doesn't want to be a mage.  Joining the Circle is far from normal anyway.  Again, I'm not seeing any indication that she wanted to turn herself in.  She just didn't want the headache associated with being a mage.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 14 avril 2011 - 05:31 .

[Iosev]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Look, if Bethany is happier as a Circle Mage, then that's great. All I'm saying is that unless you already know how the story plays out, Hawke would have no reason to leave her behind and risk capture. I'm not really a fan of metagaming...

You say that you're not a fan of meta-gaming, but in your earlier post, didn't you say that you plan on annulling the Circle every time, so the reason you don't let Bethany go over to the Circle is because you plan on annulling it?

and

Icy Magebane wrote...

@arcelonius:  "Wanting a normal
life" means she doesn't want to be a mage.  Joining the Circle is far
from normal anyway.  Again, I'm not seeing any indication that she
wanted to turn herself in.  She just didn't want the headache associated
with being a mage.

Making Bethany a Grey Warden is just making her life more complex.  Not only is she still a mage, but now she has the taint as well.

Modifié par arcelonious, 14 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[AlexMBrennan]

It can't be that bad.

The Warden you meet in the Deep Roads tells Hawke that killing Bethany quickly is more merciful than making her a Grey Warden.

[Icy Magebane]

arcelonious wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Look, if Bethany is happier as a Circle Mage, then that's great. All I'm saying is that unless you already know how the story plays out, Hawke would have no reason to leave her behind and risk capture. I'm not really a fan of metagaming...

You say that you're not a fan of meta-gaming, but in your earlier post, didn't you say that you plan on annulling the Circle every time, so the reason you don't let Bethany go over to the Circle is because you plan on annulling it?

lol... yeah okay I did say that.  When I first had to make that decision as a Warrior (I was a mage the first time, so I was dealing with Carver then, and knew the results in advance), my reasoning was that I should not let Bethany stay at home because she'd be at risk of being captured.  Anders came along because Hawke was not anti-mage and there was no significant disagreement between them that would prevent the two of them from traveling together.  Even though I knew this would prevent Bethany's death, it was reasonable enough to say that having a former Warden along would be useful... no metagaming.  Now, by the time that game was over, Hawke was very much anti-mage, and annulled the Circle.

That said, on subsequent playthroughs, I've either a) taken Bethany due to the same reasons as the first time, or had Bethany die of the Taint because Hawke and Anders didn't get along.  So even if I know the results of these decisions, there's enough variables at hand to justify taking her into the Deep Roads and eliminating the third option (death at Hawke's hands at the very end).  Maybe that will change at some point... I hope not.

Edited...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 14 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[TobiTobsen]

Rockpopple wrote...

@ TobiTobsen - Yeah, I hated that Hawke didn't fight more too, but I basically put it up to Hawke a) not wanting to cause Bethany any more trauma and not wanting himself and his family thrown into prison. They've been running from Templars all their lives and now they've been caught. Gigs over. If they fight, they all die. Hawke's smart enough to know this.

You mean like he totaly got arrested for slaughtering Knight-Lieutenant Karras and his whole patrol, while fighting for the freedom of some random mages?
Hawkes reaction is just poorly written, if you ask me.

[Rockpopple]

Was he caught? Even if he was, What's-his-face.... Thrask, would've said "Oh... Karras! That motherchucker was crazy. Fool just came outta nowhere and attacked me. If good ol Hawke here wasn't present, I'd've been killed. Oh, and he killed some fool Mages too. Can we pin a medal on this badass or what?"

But who would've had his back if he killed Cullen and whoever was with him (Cuz I seriously doubt Cullen went there alone to pick Bethany up. There might have been other Templars waiting in the wings).

Hawke's reaction isn't poorly written IMO. You just have to live with the fact that there is no option in Dragon Age II to make Hawke a random-killing sociopath. Hawke decides what to do within the boundries of a pre-determined make-up. It's just how it is.

[TobiTobsen]

Rockpopple wrote...

Was he caught? Even if he was, What's-his-face.... Thrask, would've said "Oh... Karras! That motherchucker was crazy. Fool just came outta nowhere and attacked me. If good ol Hawke here wasn't present, I'd've been killed. Oh, and he killed some fool Mages too. Can we pin a medal on this badass or what?"

But who would've had his back if he killed Cullen and whoever was with him (Cuz I seriously doubt Cullen went there alone to pick Bethany up. There might have been other Templars waiting in the wings).

Hawke's reaction isn't poorly written IMO. You just have to live with the fact that there is no option in Dragon Age II to make Hawke a random-killing sociopath. Hawke decides what to do within the boundries of a pre-determined make-up. It's just how it is.

I live with it. I just don't like it.

Like I said, I think it's strange that Hawke is willing to attack a full templar patrol to free some mages from Starkhaven, but isn't lifting a finger when they come to take his sister. Not exactly a situation where I would make a rational decision.

*shrug*

It is what it is. I can't change that.

[stobie]

It might have been more in character for Bethany to surrender herself to the Circle, which would remove the "Hawk doesn't fight" part - I noticed that, too.

I just realized that you can have Warden Bethany in your final party. If you're unhappy with Anders at that point, there's a way to get a healer. (I hear people saying they want to get rid of him, but can't because he's the only healer. I might be willing to bench him, though stabbing in the bank just seems wrong.)

[HAM Hawke]

There are some good reasons why and why not to let Bethany become a Warden. As I have stated before, I feel as if my Hawke's decision to make Bethany a Warden was the safest choice in the end. Having her live in an unstable Circle where rogue Templars run things is worse than having her kill darkspawn for a living.

Living with the taint and having nightmares is a small price to pay in order to live without running in fear of being made tranquil and have every aspect of human identity striped from your soul. Not being able to love, hate, or feel any emotions would be unthinkable...

Being a Warden and keeping those things that make one human, without the fear of being targeted by the Circle and Templars would be worth the risk of carrying the taint for my Hawke's Bethany...

[AlexMBrennan]

IIRC making Anders a Grey Warden didn't exactly stop the Templars from coming after him - killing the Templars did. Also, Bethany is a capable mage but no warrior; whence it is debatable whether fear of getting killed and taken by darkspawn (in that order if one is lucky) is better than the fear of being made tranquil. Furthermore, Grey Wardens are at best a necessary evil - just look at Duncan's actions in the prologue (cf Fully Informed Consent)