185 réponses à ce sujet

[vlyms1]

I think we all know how the qunari invasion started, the killing of Saemus, the loss of the tome to Isabela and most importantly, Aveline's insistence for the Arishok to give back the two elves. Ok let me tell you why Aveline insisting for them to be returned to face punishment was terribly wrong:

First of all, the coumpound where the qunari was staying was their territory by treaty, it was not part of Kirkwall anymore, it was like Par Vollen, then it had it's own administration and independence from the city state of Kirkwall.

Second I asked my criminal law teacher from my college (yes I am a lawschool student) about people who commit crimes in their country and ask for political asylum (well the two elves's situation is similar i guess, even if religion was involved to achieve this) in another country who has no extradition treaty or any good diplomatical relationships (I heard the Arishok told the Viscount to "begone" when he visited them so you can't call that good diplomacy) with the country of the criminals, and the country of the criminals wishes that country to turn them in then the will of the people of that country applies (in this case the qunari people), if they decided to hand them over it was alright, but if they refused to hand them over the country of the criminals can't do anything but leave, otherwise (what Aveline did) it will mean to interfere in the sovereignity of that country, even if it's dictator like (the Arishok is somehow like a supreme rules not a democratic president), so yeah, according to my country's laws Aveline was wrong, this goes for the real world, not sure how things are right or wrong in Thedas though.

[The Angry One]

Nothing says the Qunari compound was legally as an embassy, or even if they have a concept of embassies on Thedas.

[caradoc2000]

Yet the arishok demands you to hand over Isabela.

[AlexXIV]

Aveline is wrong in many things. As much as I would admire a woman like her in real life, most of the time she is somewhere between annoying and unnerving.

[IanPolaris]

Aveline is *so* law and order that she borders on unreasonble at times, and this is one of them. You are completely correct. Kirkwall law does not extend to the Qunari compound or Quanari subjects which the Elves as Viddathari now are. At best Aveline could inform the Arishock that if they ventured outside the compound they would be arrested and tried for murder.

It was a particularly dumb thing to do with tensions running so high after the assassination of Mother Petrice.

-Polaris

[BigEvil]

The Viscount mentions Kirkwall gave the Qunari the space in the docks to keep them contained and away from others. There's no mention of a treaty, just a gift and in the subtitles it says "gift" so I don't think it was an embassy or any kind of ground legally owned by the Qunari.

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Yet the arishok demands you to hand over Isabela.

Sure.  The demand isn't the problem.  Theatening to act on that demand with force is (and the Arishok is just as guilty as Aveline here but both are at fault).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BigEvil wrote...

The Viscount mentions Kirkwall gave the Qunari the space in the docks to keep them contained and away from others. There's no mention of a treaty, just a gift and in the subtitles it says "gift" so I don't think it was an embassy or any kind of ground legally owned by the Qunari.

Actaully the Viscount tells you it was a gift which does imply a de-facto if not de-jure embassy arrangement.  At any event, the compound had been treated as an embassy for four years.  Aveline knew that.  Aveline knew tensions were running sky high.  She tried to abrogate the Qunari rights in their own compound anyway (my Hawkes almost always side with the Arishok against Aveline too in this scene).

-Polaris

[mcsupersport]

They didn't have "diplomatic relations" with Thedas, they were squatters/refugees at best. It wasn't until the second act that they even tried diplomatic relations, and while promising, the individual were taken and killed. So no treaty, no established way to communicate, nothing, they just were given an area in the city to limit their exposure and hopefully the deaths of citizens. So if a Spanish vessel crashed into North Africa and the people set up camp for 4 years, would their laws be above the country they were in??

[IanPolaris]

Given the way the Qunari compound had been treated for four years, I think it's reasonable to say that most people of all walks of life regarded the Qunari compound as a de-facto embassy subject to it's own laws.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

The Viscount mentions Kirkwall gave the Qunari the space in the docks to keep them contained and away from others. There's no mention of a treaty, just a gift and in the subtitles it says "gift" so I don't think it was an embassy or any kind of ground legally owned by the Qunari.

Actaully the Viscount tells you it was a gift which does imply a de-facto if not de-jure embassy arrangement.  At any event, the compound had been treated as an embassy for four years.  Aveline knew that.  Aveline knew tensions were running sky high.  She tried to abrogate the Qunari rights in their own compound anyway (my Hawkes almost always side with the Arishok against Aveline too in this scene).

-Polaris

It was a gift as a location where the Qunari could gather and live in.
At no point is it ever stated that this section of the city is treated as Par Vollen and that Qunari law is above Kirkwall law there.

[IanPolaris]

If land is given as a gift (as we are told it was) then the Qunari DO have legal ownership of that part of Kirkwall. That's what 'gift' means.

-Polaris

[BigEvil]

IanPolaris wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

The Viscount mentions Kirkwall gave the Qunari the space in the docks to keep them contained and away from others. There's no mention of a treaty, just a gift and in the subtitles it says "gift" so I don't think it was an embassy or any kind of ground legally owned by the Qunari.

Actaully the Viscount tells you it was a gift which does imply a de-facto if not de-jure embassy arrangement.  At any event, the compound had been treated as an embassy for four years.  Aveline knew that.  Aveline knew tensions were running sky high.  She tried to abrogate the Qunari rights in their own compound anyway (my Hawkes almost always side with the Arishok against Aveline too in this scene).

-Polaris

That only makes sense if people in Thedas have embassies and understand or follow laws relating to them. If they do then I'd agree with you, but I don't think I've seen anything in either DA:O or DA2 which supports that.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

It was a gift as a location where the Qunari could gather and live in.
At no point is it ever stated that this section of the city is treated as Par Vollen and that Qunari law is above Kirkwall law there.

De-Jure no.  It wasn't.  De-facto, it most certainly was.  Everyone knew and accepted that Kirkwall law stopped at the Qunari compound gate.  You can not treat a compound as an embassy for four years then then suddenly when tensions are high decide it's suddenly inconvenient.  That's how wars get started.....hmmm.....

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

If land is given as a gift (as we are told it was) then the Qunari DO have legal ownership of that part of Kirkwall. That's what 'gift' means.

-Polaris

Or the gift was the space for the Qunari to live in.
You're again presuming that Thedas even has a concept of embassies.

[vlyms1]

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

[NICKjnp]

It wasn't an embassy. I have a house but I am bound by the laws of the land. Foreigners are still bound by the laws of the land they are in.

[Augustei]

vlyms1 wrote...

I think we all know how the qunari invasion started, the killing of Saemus, the loss of the tome to Isabela and most importantly, Aveline's insistence for the Arishok to give back the two elves. Ok let me tell you why Aveline insisting for them to be returned to face punishment was terribly wrong:

First of all, the coumpound where the qunari was staying was their territory by treaty, it was not part of Kirkwall anymore, it was like Par Vollen, then it had it's own administration and independence from the city state of Kirkwall.

Second I asked my criminal law teacher from my college (yes I am a lawschool student) about people who commit crimes in their country and ask for political asylum (well the two elves's situation is similar i guess, even if religion was involved to achieve this) in another country who has no extradition treaty or any good diplomatical relationships (I heard the Arishok told the Viscount to "begone" when he visited them so you can't call that good diplomacy) with the country of the criminals, and the country of the criminals wishes that country to turn them in then the will of the people of that country applies (in this case the qunari people), if they decided to hand them over it was alright, but if they refused to hand them over the country of the criminals can't do anything but leave, otherwise (what Aveline did) it will mean to interfere in the sovereignity of that country, even if it's dictator like (the Arishok is somehow like a supreme rules not a democratic president), so yeah, according to my country's laws Aveline was wrong, this goes for the real world, not sure how things are right or wrong in Thedas though.

The Compond was not part of the Llomeyrn Accord, it was gifted to them by the Viscount to ease tensions. The Treaty the Qunari mentions is probably one between the Qunari and the Viscount or something

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 12 avril 2011 - 06:31 .

[IanPolaris]

BigEvil wrote...

That only makes sense if people in Thedas have embassies and understand or follow laws relating to them. If they do then I'd agree with you, but I don't think I've seen anything in either DA:O or DA2 which supports that.

Actually I think they do in Thedas although not as advanced as what we are familiar with.  We know for example during the Landmeet that Loghain's writ did not extend to within the compound (such as Eamon's) of his individual lords, and as I recall we do see or hear about ambassadors who are considered outside the local law (as are their retinues).  I think permanent embassy compounds are rare, but the idea that an ambassador and his or her retinue has diplomatic immunity (and by extension soverienty over their current place of residence?)  That's actually a very old idea and as such I'd be suprised if that wasn't reflected in Thedas.

Regardless, for over four years, the Viscount most certaily DID treat the Arishok as the Qunari ambassador (including receiving delegations) and most certainly DID de-facto recognize Qunari extraterritoriality (possibly as the insistance of his son).  The moment the Viscount is out of it, Aveline has to sour the whole deal.

Dumb move, Aveline.  I never support her in this.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 avril 2011 - 06:31 .

[The Angry One]

vlyms1 wrote...

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

It is theirs to use.
It is not theirs to impose their laws on.

[IanPolaris]

If the land is given by treaty (and we are told this), then it is an embassy (and most certainly was treated as such).

-Polaris

[BigEvil]

vlyms1 wrote...

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

We're supposed to accept what a guard says to someone, who would be a loitering stranger at that point, to get them to go away? I've never seen any fiction where they put someone competent on guard duty anyway.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

vlyms1 wrote...

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

It is theirs to use.
It is not theirs to impose their laws on.

If it was given to the Arishok as part of a treaty between Kirkwall and the Qunari, then it IS theirs to impose their laws on.  Furthermore for four years, we are told and shown that it most definately is granted extra-territorial rights.  The moment the Viscount is in grief, Aveline has to flex her Guard-Captain muscle about this.  Very dumb and very wrong.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

All these discussions have made me curious whether there are actually any lawyers in Thedas.

[Herr Uhl]

vlyms1 wrote...

I think we all know how the qunari invasion started, the killing of Saemus, the loss of the tome to Isabela and most importantly, Aveline's insistence for the Arishok to give back the two elves.

I thought the murder of their delegates would be seen as more of an insult.