185 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

BigEvil wrote...

vlyms1 wrote...

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

We're supposed to accept what a guard says to someone, who would be a loitering stranger at that point, to get them to go away? I've never seen any fiction where they put someone competent on guard duty anyway.

When it agrees and reflects how the Viscount himself ordered his guard to treat the Qunari and when even Meridith doesn't say a word about hunting apostates in the compound (and you don't see a single templar in there), then yes, we should take the guard at his word.  Especially a Qunari guard.  Qunari almost never lie and cerainly never lie casually (not over something like this).  A Qunari can lie but only if the Qun demands it.

-Polaris

[BigEvil]

IanPolaris wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

vlyms1 wrote...

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

We're supposed to accept what a guard says to someone, who would be a loitering stranger at that point, to get them to go away? I've never seen any fiction where they put someone competent on guard duty anyway.

When it agrees and reflects how the Viscount himself ordered his guard to treat the Qunari and when even Meridith doesn't say a word about hunting apostates in the compound (and you don't see a single templar in there), then yes, we should take the guard at his word.  Especially a Qunari guard.  Qunari almost never lie and cerainly never lie casually (not over something like this).  A Qunari can lie but only if the Qun demands it.

-Polaris

That was pretty much just me making a joke about guards in fiction.

[NICKjnp]

All it says is that it is theirs by treaty. It doesn't say anything else. Kirkwall was only looking for a place to put them. The Qunari are still visitors to the Free Marches and are bound by the laws of Kirkwall.

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

vlyms1 wrote...

I think we all know how the qunari invasion started, the killing of Saemus, the loss of the tome to Isabela and most importantly, Aveline's insistence for the Arishok to give back the two elves.

I thought the murder of their delegates would be seen as more of an insult.

Actually I doubt this.  I strongly suspect the Arishok expected his delegate to be murdered but felt it was a demand of the Qun to try, one last time to educate Kirkwall (as he saw it).  The fact (at least in my games) that a basit-an investigated the crime, avenged the murders, and then as a courtesy truthfully reported what happened clearly means a lot to the Arishok.  So in that sort of scenario, esp so soon after the murder of Viddathari Saemus, I can easily see the Arishok more angered by Aveline's presumption.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

NICKjnp wrote...

All it says is that it is theirs by treaty. It doesn't say anything else. Kirkwall was only looking for a place to put them. The Qunari are still visitors to the Free Marches and are bound by the laws of Kirkwall.

The Viscount didn't see it that way.  He clearly gave the Arishok extraterritorial authority like an embassy.  De-Jure or not, the Qunari Compound after four years was most definately de-facto Qunari territory and thus Aveline was still in the wrong.

-Polaris

[NICKjnp]

The Qunari were in the wrong...they killed the Kirkwall guards in Kirkwall.

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually I doubt this.  I strongly suspect the Arishok expected his delegate to be murdered

Why? When does anything allude to this?

[Camenae]

OP is a "lawschool student?" Your IRAC/CREAC needs work!

[Siansonea]

Kirkwall ain't a democracy.

Democratic laws and principles do not apply.

[TEWR]

vlyms1 wrote...

I think we all know how the qunari invasion started, the killing of Saemus, the loss of the tome to Isabela and most importantly, Aveline's insistence for the Arishok to give back the two elves. Ok let me tell you why Aveline insisting for them to be returned to face punishment was terribly wrong:

First of all, the coumpound where the qunari was staying was their territory by treaty, it was not part of Kirkwall anymore, it was like Par Vollen, then it had it's own administration and independence from the city state of Kirkwall.

Second I asked my criminal law teacher from my college (yes I am a lawschool student) about people who commit crimes in their country and ask for political asylum (well the two elves's situation is similar i guess, even if religion was involved to achieve this) in another country who has no extradition treaty or any good diplomatical relationships (I heard the Arishok told the Viscount to "begone" when he visited them so you can't call that good diplomacy) with the country of the criminals, and the country of the criminals wishes that country to turn them in then the will of the people of that country applies (in this case the qunari people), if they decided to hand them over it was alright, but if they refused to hand them over the country of the criminals can't do anything but leave, otherwise (what Aveline did) it will mean to interfere in the sovereignity of that country, even if it's dictator like (the Arishok is somehow like a supreme rules not a democratic president), so yeah, according to my country's laws Aveline was wrong, this goes for the real world, not sure how things are right or wrong in Thedas though.

Wouldn't this be more akin to the idea of claiming Sanctuary?

Either way, assuming Thedas has embassies, then I can see your point. However, Aveline never tried to forcefully take the Viddethari elves. She merely tried to reason with the Arishok to see if she could get him to change his mind. Now if she had ordered the guards to be ready to take the elves, then I could see so.

However, the land was given to the Qunari through Treaty. Whether this means it's an embassy or not is uncertain.

[Exile Isan]

I don't see it as wrong, exactly but certainly stupid. Tensions are high with Qunari as it is (loss of Seamus and the delegates) and Aveline wants to go force the Arishok to turn over the elves who took the law into their own hands because the real law failed them? Brilliant. She should have know it would end badly they had become part of Qun and since Aveline was with my Hawke when Petrice got turned into a pincushion she would know that the Qunari "Protect those of the Qun" and "do not abandon their own".

And yes I always side with the Arishok in that conversation.


FYI, Ferelden, if not Thedas, do have embassies. If you make Anora queen on her and killed Loghain she puts a statue of him in front of the Orliesen embassy.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 12 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[Camenae]

Plus who is Aveline to go all "you can't take the law into your own hands !!one one111" at those elves. She's the one giving me Friendship points for doling out my own personal version of justice to other random criminals.

Edit: I'm full of typos today : /

Modifié par Camenae, 12 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[TEWR]

Exile Isan wrote...

I don't see it as wrong, exactly but certainly stupid. Tensions are high with Qunari as it is (loss of Seamus and the delegates) and Aveline wants to go force the Arishok to turn over the elves who took the law into their own hands because the real law failed them? Brilliant. She should have know it would end badly they had become part of Qun and since Aveline was with my Hawke when Petrice got turned into a pincushion she would know that the Qunari "Protect those of the Qun" and "do not abandon their own".

And yes I always side with the Arishok in that conversation.

I think it's safe to assume everyone sides with the Arishok in that conversation.

[TEWR]

Camenae wrote...

Plus who is Aveline to go all "you can't take the law into your own hands !!one one111" at those elves. She's the one giving me Friendship points for doling out my own personal version of justice to other random criminals.

Edit: I'm full of typos today : /

yes but she also says that the Kirkwall City Guard can also hire temporary recruits in her Act 1 quest. which means Hawke and company.

[The Angry One]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think it's safe to assume everyone sides with the Arishok in that conversation.

And miss out on angryHawke's brilliant "GIVE US THE ELVES ALREADY!!" line? Never.
Though the Arishok actually likes that, he responds with "Impressive."

Modifié par The Angry One, 12 avril 2011 - 07:23 .

[IanPolaris]

Camenae wrote...

Plus who is Aveline to go all "you can't take the law into your own hands !!one one111" at those elves. She's the one giving me Friendship points for doling out my own personal version of justice to other random criminals.

Edit: I'm full of typos today : /

When it comes to law and order, Aveline is a hypocrit.  She believes that she is the only one entitled to go outside the bounds of the law, but she expects you to support her when she does.  The scene with the Arishok isn't the first time.  See Ser Emric.  Ser Emric has enough circumstantial evidence (certainly by any competant police standard) to warrent an ongoing investigation, yet Aveline is too damn lazy to pick up on it...and when he tries to continue on his own as Templar (since one of the missing is a circle mage), Aveline wants you to shut him up.  Justice be damned.

I like Aveline as a person more or less, but she definately has her bad points and law and order hypocrisy is one of them.  [She doesn't approve of you giving the Magister's son back to his father even though you have to take the law into your own hands to kill him either.  Hypocrit.]

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

I like Aveline as a person more or less, but she definately has her bad points and law and order hypocrisy is one of them.  [She doesn't approve of you giving the Magister's son back to his father even though you have to take the law into your own hands to kill him either.  Hypocrit.]

-Polaris

You mean Magistrate

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I like Aveline as a person more or less, but she definately has her bad points and law and order hypocrisy is one of them.  [She doesn't approve of you giving the Magister's son back to his father even though you have to take the law into your own hands to kill him either.  Hypocrit.]

-Polaris

You mean Magistrate

Oops.  Yes.  My point is that Capt of the Guard it was Aveline's duty (which she says she puts above all else) to insure the prisoner is taken alive for trial per the Kirkwall legal system, yet she has no problem giving approval here when it clearly is being abused....but won't in the Arishok's compound.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

If the land is given by treaty (and we are told this), then it is an embassy (and most certainly was treated as such).

Depends entirely on the content of the treaty.

As for how it's treated, one could make the point that the very fact Aveline does enter the compound and asks for the elves to be given back demonstrates it's not an embassy. If it was one, Aveline would be in no position to even think of that, after all, and pretty much everyone seems to agree she isn't a law-breaker.

[caradoc2000]

To approach the original question in another way: what should Aveline have done then? Let the Arishok continue to harbor murderers?

[Peer of the Empire]

It is no embassy unless de jure.  Otherwise any squatters could cross the border and seize control - they may seize control as bandits or as upstanding citizens, problems for the local governance to deal with, but not as a sovereign nation.  Unless Kirkwall is in a weak state indeed

The only wrong is risking war - but fight the qunari we must, sooner or later.  If Kirkwall has ceded this territory and not to diplomats then there is proof enough of dire danger.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 12 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Huntress]

caradoc2000 wrote...

To approach the original question in another way: what should Aveline have done then? Let the Arishok continue to harbor murderers?

isn't that what the chantry is doing?

[BigEvil]

Ahhh, now we find the real reason that Aveline forced the issue with the elves. They were just an excuse. Everyone wanted to force conflict with the Qunari and get rid of them because they were mooching off of Kirkwall. Ever since the Qunari arrived supplies of delicious cakes and cookies in Kirkwall have been dangerously low!

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...

To approach the original question in another way: what should Aveline have done then? Let the Arishok continue to harbor murderers?

After posting a bounty and perhaps having them found guilty in absentia, why not?  Make it known that if the elves venture outside the compound they will be arrested.  Beyond that, where are they going to go?

So again, why not?

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

caradoc2000 wrote...

To approach the original question in another way: what should Aveline have done then? Let the Arishok continue to harbor murderers?

I can understand where Aveline was coming from - she didn't want to create a precedent where people could commit crimes and go to the Compound to avoid punishment.