185 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Not knowingly. You bring it to the awareness of the Grand Cleric, she pretty much hands over Petrice for arrest.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If the land is given by treaty (and we are told this), then it is an embassy (and most certainly was treated as such).

Depends entirely on the content of the treaty.

As for how it's treated, one could make the point that the very fact Aveline does enter the compound and asks for the elves to be given back demonstrates it's not an embassy. If it was one, Aveline would be in no position to even think of that, after all, and pretty much everyone seems to agree she isn't a law-breaker.

Aveline has no problems having Aveline break the law.  She demonstates that very clearly throughout the game.  She doesn't want anyone else to.  She's a hypocrit.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aveline has no problems having Aveline break the law.  She demonstates that very clearly throughout the game. 

Examples, please?

[cpmd4]

You're assuming that everything we go by in the real world is considered "right". Even if it was an embassy and considered their land, I would argue that it is wrong to shelter fugitives, and Aveline was in the right.

It is not a black and white situation, and you have to consider that what we do in real life isn't always "right" just because it's law.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

To approach the original question in another way: what should Aveline have done then? Let the Arishok continue to harbor murderers?

After posting a bounty and perhaps having them found guilty in absentia, why not?  Make it known that if the elves venture outside the compound they will be arrested.  Beyond that, where are they going to go?

So again, why not?

-Polaris

Because every two-bit criminal now has a way to get off scott-free by "converting" to the Qun..
Personally I'd have let it be and let the Arishok be flooded in the results of his own stupidity, having to feed and take care of dozens of degenerates.
But then Aveline is not a meta-gamer and didn't know the Arishok was looking for any excuse to start a war,

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Aveline has no problems having Aveline break the law.  She demonstates that very clearly throughout the game. 

Examples, please?

The Magistrate's son for starters.  She approves of you taking the law into your own hands and killing him.

There are other similiar examples such as her hypocrisy regarding Ser Emric.

-Polaris

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

 Hypocrit.]

-Polaris

IanPolaris wrote...

She's a hypocrit.

-Polaris

If you're going to keep using that word, spell it correctly: hypocrite.

A pet peeve.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Magistrate's son for starters.  She approves of you taking the law into your own hands and killing him.

Can you prove that's actually breaking any laws? The man in question asks to be killed, what law gets broken by granting him his wish?

[Peer of the Empire]

The Angry One wrote...

Because every two-bit criminal now has a way to get off scott-free by "converting" to the Qun..
Personally I'd have let it be and let the Arishok be flooded in the results of his
own stupidity, having to feed and take care of dozens of degenerates.
But then Aveline is not a meta-gamer and didn't know the Arishok was looking for any excuse to start a war,

Thankfully she has the Champion to look out for that.  As does Petrice.  Too bad he did not stop either, but joined them, lol!

And lol @ the Arishok in that state, flooded with refugees, but as alluded earlier he and his cronies are no doubt mooching off of us here in Kirkwall.

BigEvil wrote...
Ever since the Qunari arrived supplies of delicious cakes and cookies in Kirkwall have been dangerously low!

A national disgrace!

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 12 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[caridounette]

IanPolaris wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If the land is given by treaty (and we are told this), then it is an embassy (and most certainly was treated as such).

Depends entirely on the content of the treaty.

As for how it's treated, one could make the point that the very fact Aveline does enter the compound and asks for the elves to be given back demonstrates it's not an embassy. If it was one, Aveline would be in no position to even think of that, after all, and pretty much everyone seems to agree she isn't a law-breaker.

Aveline has no problems having Aveline break the law.  She demonstates that very clearly throughout the game.  She doesn't want anyone else to.  She's a hypocrit.

-Polaris

where in Thedas did they refered to any piece of land as an ambassy? does the concept even exists in that world? Thats our way to make politics.

All i see is a leader feeling honor bounded to fallow laws he knows will mean trouble (the Arishok knows that taking the elves will compromise his search for the relic but he cant turn them away be cause he feels its the right thing to do) and a captain of the guard doing her job.

things were just bound to go downhill.

Modifié par caridounette, 12 avril 2011 - 07:55 .

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Magistrate's son for starters.  She approves of you taking the law into your own hands and killing him.

Can you prove that's actually breaking any laws? The man in question asks to be killed, what law gets broken by granting him his wish?

As captain of the guard, she is being sent along with Hawke to recover a fugative alive.  Since he hasn't been tried yet, killing him is murder (certainly the Magistrate thinks so) and definately against the law.  The guards that are there seem to think so too and want nothing to do with what you did if you kill him.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

caridounette wrote...

where in Thedas did they refered to any piece of land as an ambassy? does the concept even exists in that world? Thats our way to make politics.

All i see is a leader feeling honor bounded to fallow laws he knows will mean trouble (the Arishok knows that taking the elves will compromise his search for the relic but he cant turn them away be cause he feels its the right thing to do) and a captain of the guard doing her job.

things were just bound to go downhill.

We are told specifically in DAO that Orlais has an embassy in Denerim (as we understand the term even).

-Polaris

[Exile Isan]

caridounette wrote...

where in Thedas did they refered to any piece of land as an ambassy? does the concept even exists in that world? Thats our way to make politics.

There is an Orlesian embassy in Ferelden.

And I have to wonder if the reason Aveline pushed this issue has less to do with the fact that the elves committed a murder and more to do with the fact that the person they murdered was a guardsman.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

As captain of the guard, she is being sent along with Hawke to recover a fugative alive.  Since he hasn't been tried yet, killing him is murder (certainly the Magistrate thinks so) and definately against the law.

Since it's done on man's own request, it's technically assisting a suicide. We don't know if that's considered criminal offence in Thedas.

What the Magistrate says should be taken with huge pinch of salt given the man is demonstrated to lie directly to Hawke's face in the same conversation, and how despite what he says there's no actual legal consequences for Hawke in the end.

[Exile Isan]

tmp7704 wrote...
Since it's done on man's own request, it's technically assisting a suicide. We don't know if that's considered criminal offence in Thedas.

What the Magistrate says should be taken with huge pinch of salt given the man is demonstrated to lie directly to Hawke's face in the same conversation, and how despite what he says there's no actual legal consequences for Hawke in the end.

Doesn't change the fact that the man was a criminal and a self confessed one too. If Aveline truly believed in law and order then she would have wanted you to take him in so he could stand trial for the kidnapping of Lia if nothing else.

[Wulfram]

In our world embassies remain part of the host country, though they are not to be entered by the host country without permission.

Aveline is certainly entitled to ask, which is all she did before the Arishok decided to try and murder her.

edit: Aveline doesn't think either the Magistrate or the Arishok should be able to shield people from justice.  Seems consistent to me.

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

As captain of the guard, she is being sent along with Hawke to recover a fugative alive.  Since he hasn't been tried yet, killing him is murder (certainly the Magistrate thinks so) and definately against the law.

Since it's done on man's own request, it's technically assisting a suicide. We don't know if that's considered criminal offence in Thedas.

What the Magistrate says should be taken with huge pinch of salt given the man is demonstrated to lie directly to Hawke's face in the same conversation, and how despite what he says there's no actual legal consequences for Hawke in the end.

If Aveline is in the group when you confront the magistrate, you find out why there are no legal consequences as there should be.  Avaline tells the Magistrate to his face that she won't press charges on behalf of the city and she will order her guardmen to ignore his complaints should be make them.  This is Aveline taking the law into her own hands.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

Exile Isan wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that the man was a criminal and a self confessed one too.

Is there a law that says a criminal cannot be helped to kill himself/herself if he/she wishes so?

[AlexXIV]

To be fair, the reason she wants the elves back is because she can't have criminals think they can hide with the Qunari. It would only have had more criminals follow their example and I am not sure if the Arishok would have turned them all down. He obviously didn't have alot of proof if whether the elves even told the truth to begin with, and he didn't care much either. He simply decided he would believe them for whatever reason.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

If Aveline is in the group when you confront the magistrate, you find out why there are no legal consequences as there should be.  Avaline tells the Magistrate to his face that she won't press charges on behalf of the city and she will order her guardmen to ignore his complaints should be make them.  This is Aveline taking the law into her own hands.

I'd say that shows the Magistrate's threats are in fact baseless -- otherwise the only thing a guard-captain would gain by openly declaring she's going to break the law herself (that is, to tell the guards to ignore actually valid legal complaint) to a city official no less and one that's hell bent on revenge to boot... would be getting herself expelled and charged, much like the guy she's replaced. Since she wasn't, she was apparently in legal position to do what she did.

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 avril 2011 - 08:17 .

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

Exile Isan wrote...

Doesn't change the fact that the man was a criminal and a self confessed one too.

Is there a law that says a criminal cannot be helped to kill himself/herself if he/she wishes so?

First off, in our society it is forbidden to help someone with suicide. For whatever reason. It's not murder but you still go to jail for it. Examples are nurses who switch of life support units of patients because they wish to die, etc. We don't know Kirkwall law that well but I guess even if he begged to be killed you'd have to prove it to the magistrate. I doubt he will just take Hawke's word for it. So the only thing they could do is to kill him and act as if he 'accidently' died in a fight or something. He was a criminal after all.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[Exile Isan]

tmp7704 wrote...
Is there a law that says a criminal cannot be helped to kill himself/herself if he/she wishes so?

According to Fenris it's a crime against the Maker, take that as you will.

Well, commiting suicide is anyway.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 12 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

If Aveline is in the group when you confront the magistrate, you find out why there are no legal consequences as there should be.  Avaline tells the Magistrate to his face that she won't press charges on behalf of the city and she will order her guardmen to ignore his complaints should be make them.  This is Aveline taking the law into her own hands.

-Polaris

No it isn't. It's Aveline deciding to not follow the complaints of an individual who already abused the law due to his own bias.

[sphinxess]

Wulfram wrote...

In our world embassies remain part of the host country, though they are not to be entered by the host country without permission.

Aveline is certainly entitled to ask, which is all she did before the Arishok decided to try and murder her.

edit: Aveline doesn't think either the Magistrate or the Arishok should be able to shield people from justice.  Seems consistent to me.

You also have the right to tell a embassy to pack up its bags and leave