185 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

AlexXIV wrote...

To be fair, the reason she wants the elves back is because she can't have criminals think they can hide with the Qunari. It would only have had more criminals follow their example and I am not sure if the Arishok would have turned them all down. He obviously didn't have alot of proof if whether the elves even told the truth to begin with, and he didn't care much either. He simply decided he would believe them for whatever reason.

Why would he care about their guilt?  Of course Things commit crimes against Things, it is a sign of their disfunction and lack of certaintly.  What matters is that they are now willing to follow the Qun.

[caradoc2000]

AlexXIV wrote...

First off, in our society it is forbidden to help someone with suicide.

Not everywhere.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

First off, in our society it is forbidden to help someone with suicide. For whatever reason. It's not murder but you still go to jail for it. Examples are nurses who switch of life support units from patients because they wish to die, etc.

Yes, which is why i said we don't know how it's viewed by Thedas law.

Also, to say it's outright forbidden in our society isn't precise. There's number of countries where euthanasia is legal, e.g. 

but I guess even if he begged to be killed you'd have to prove it to the magistrate. I doubt he will just take Hawke's word for it. So the only thing they could do is to kill him and act as if he 'accidently' died in a fight or something. He was a criminal after all.

I'd imagine the burden of proof would be on the Magistrate to show it was a murder, not on Hawke that it wasn't.

[AlexXIV]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If Aveline is in the group when you confront the magistrate, you find out why there are no legal consequences as there should be.  Avaline tells the Magistrate to his face that she won't press charges on behalf of the city and she will order her guardmen to ignore his complaints should be make them.  This is Aveline taking the law into her own hands.

-Polaris

No it isn't. It's Aveline deciding to not follow the complaints of an individual who already abused the law due to his own bias.

I guess that's where 'justice' and 'being lawful' isn't the same thing. According to most laws an individual cannot take law in it's own hand, not even a president or chancellor. So if you were 'lawful' you'd have to arrest him and let the court judge, despite the fact that the court may be corrupt. If you are truely lawful you always have to follow the letter of the law, even if it is not serving justice. At best you could try to change laws in a legal way. Or find proof that the court is corrupt.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'd imagine the burden of proof would be on the Magistrate to show it was a murder, not on Hawke that it wasn't.

At which point it's revealed he was his son and the Magistrate is laughed out of court.

[AlexXIV]

Wulfram wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

To be fair, the reason she wants the elves back is because she can't have criminals think they can hide with the Qunari. It would only have had more criminals follow their example and I am not sure if the Arishok would have turned them all down. He obviously didn't have alot of proof if whether the elves even told the truth to begin with, and he didn't care much either. He simply decided he would believe them for whatever reason.

Why would he care about their guilt?  Of course Things commit crimes against Things, it is a sign of their disfunction and lack of certaintly.  What matters is that they are now willing to follow the Qun.

That's the view of the Qun, but not of the people of Kirkwall. Aveline can't let people think that if they commit crimes they can run to the Arishok and request political asylum or something.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

I guess that's where 'justice' and 'being lawful' isn't the same thing. According to most laws an individual cannot take law in it's own hand, not even a president or chancellor.

That's true. However in this particular situation it can be argued that there is no instance of "taking law in one's own hands" because it's not situation where a sentence is imposed upon a criminal. If the man in question didn't request to be killed it'd be another matter entirely.

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I guess that's where 'justice' and 'being lawful' isn't the same thing. According to most laws an individual cannot take law in it's own hand, not even a president or chancellor.

That's true. However in this particular situation it can be argued that there is no instance of "taking law in one's own hands" because it's not situation where a sentence is imposed upon a criminal. If the man in question didn't request to be killed it'd be another matter entirely.

You can't kill people because they ask you. Not only would it be hard to prove, it is just a matter of law and order that individuals may not pass judgement like that. That's what judges are for, if anyone. At best Hawke could tell the magistrate that a spider ate his son or that he attacked Hawke and he/she had no choice.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

You can't kill people because they ask you.

Again, depending on the legal system yes you can. We don't know whether it's legal in Thedas but given Hawke isn't even put on a trial... well. (of course realistically this most likely has more to do with limited resources, but that's all in the air, really)

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[Torax]

Treaties do not exist to Qunari. There is no evidence of one even being signed there in Kirkwall. The only treaty I know of that was signed was a long time ago between them and the Chantry. But the Qunari do not Honor Treaties.

No evidence of any Embassy for any nation. I didn't see a Rivain or Orlais Embassy in Denerim. They'd likely kill the Orlais Embassy Patrons or be mad cause Rivain doesn't nationally accept the Maker and the claims of the Chantry.

Should note as well. With lack of even knowing of such a treaty is it just an assumption and trying to put real world scenarios into a game. Now if words like "Embassy" or "Treaty" were used in game then it would work. They were not so I would say no there was not an Embassy or a Treaty for the Qunari there.

All that most likely happened is the Qunari landed and found the largest and most defensible position in the docks and bunkered down there. The Viscount and the City Guards wouldn't dare start a war with them so they just let them be, praying that they would just leave. As for the Qunari themselves, they will believe no matter where they are that their rules and laws (If you can even call them laws) are above all others. So to assume any sort of entitlement by the actions of the Arishok, just remember that if he was even standing next to the Empress of Orlais he would act like he was standing in Par Vollen. The Qun is within each Qunari. Even if they signed a paper, they only see it as a pointless item that weaker people believe in. There is no Honor in peace. I bet that even if Viscount offered the Qunari a Treaty early on. The Arishok would have looked him down, decided he was not even worthy of a fight and said "No" and walked away.

[ReallyRue]

I thought Aveline had a point. The moment the guard lets one or two criminals run to the Qunari to escape the law, lots of people would start doing it, and create a bigger problem.

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You can't kill people because they ask you.

Again, depending on the legal system yes you can. We don't know whether it's legal in Thedas but given Hawke isn't even put on a trial... well. (of course realistically this has most likely have more to do with limited resources but that's all in the air, really)

Well first Hawke would have to admit officially that he 'murdered' anyone. Or that some witness accuses him/her. Mostly Hawke walks in a room and gets attacked, or at least, if Hawke starts the fight there are no witnesses left. However, it is self defense or 'not possible to prove it wasn't self-defense'. And I guess self defense is legal in any law since nobody needs to let someone kill him/her just for the lulz.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[Exile Isan]

Wulfram wrote...
Why would he care about their guilt?  Of course Things commit crimes against Things, it is a sign of their disfunction and lack of certaintly.  What matters is that they are now willing to follow the Qun.

He would care about their guilt. In the eyes of the Qun they would see the elves as the wronged party. The law did nothing to the guard who raped their sister so they took the law into there own hands in the eyes of the Qun they are justified in their crime. The Arishok saw this and let them join the Qun because he saw them as more honorable than the lawmen in Kirkwall. At least that's the vibe I got from what the Arishok said during that dialog.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 12 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[AlexXIV]

caradoc2000 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

First off, in our society it is forbidden to help someone with suicide.

Not everywhere.

At least you'd need some sort of approval from official side. In such countries that allow euthanasia.

[AlexXIV]

Exile Isan wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Why would he care about their guilt?  Of course Things commit crimes against Things, it is a sign of their disfunction and lack of certaintly.  What matters is that they are now willing to follow the Qun.

He would care about their guilt. In the eyes of the Qun they would see the elves as the wronged party. The law did nothing to the guard who raped their sister so they took the law into there own hands in the eyes of the Qun they are justified in their crime. The Arishok saw this and let them join the Qun because he saw them as more honorable than the lawmen in Kirkwall. At least that's the vibe I got from what the Arishok said during that dialog.

Aveline was investigating the case and I doubt the Arishok did have more evidence than Avelina that the elves were not lying. Of course it is easy to say the elves are probably telling the truth because such things happen in this time and age.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well first Hawke would have to admit officially that he 'murdered' anyone. Or that some witness accuses him/her. Mostly Hawke walks in a room and gets attacked, or at least, if Hawke starts the fight there are no witnesses left. However, it is self defense or 'not possible to prove it wasn't self-defense'. And I guess self defense is legal in any law since nobody needs to let someone kill him/her just for the lulz.

I think given the situation, and how the man states that he has to be killed or he's going to keep doing what he's been doing, it could be presented as assisting in suicide which then gets "converted" to "justifiable homicide", specifically the case when it's 'homicide to prevent a very serious crime'. But yes, it'd be rather hard to even start the charge since all everyone but Hawke's group see is Hawke getting in and then Hawke getting out. I can't remember if you say anything specifically that you actually killed the man when you go out -- iirc, the guards present there are mostly terrified that the guy is dead and how the Magistrate is going to react to these news no matter the death reason?

[David Gaider]

Just so we're clear:

There is no treaty. No-one says there is a treaty, not even the qunari gate guard.

As for the mention of the gift, the Viscount says this:

Balance has held because the Qunari ask for nothing. Even the space in Lowtown was a "gift" to contain them.

The quotes are from the in-game text. Whether someone wants to interpret that as meaning more than it is, it's irrelevant. Under no circumstances is the qunari compound foreign soil. It's an awkward and tense situation, and the Viscount recognizes that. When Aveline goes to speak with the Arishok, it's to speak... if you'll recall, she leaves her guards outside. She makes no a demand, but no threat. The Arishok, meanwhile, knows that the city is going to repond to the situation and has already been preparing.

So make of that what you will, but trying to read some kind of legality into the qunari's occupation of the docks area that is neither stated nor really even implied is reaching.

[Torax]

David Gaider wrote...

Just so we're clear:

There is no treaty. No-one says there is a treaty, not even the qunari gate guard.

As for the mention of the gift, the Viscount says this:

Balance has held because the Qunari ask for nothing. Even the space in Lowtown was a "gift" to contain them.

The quotes are from the in-game text. Whether someone wants to interpret that as meaning more than it is, it's irrelevant. Under no circumstances is the qunari compound foreign soil. It's an awkward and tense situation, and the Viscount recognizes that. When Aveline goes to speak with the Arishok, it's to speak... if you'll recall, she leaves her guards outside. She makes no a demand, but no threat. The Arishok, meanwhile, knows that the city is going to repond to the situation and has already been preparing.

So make of that what you will, but trying to read some kind of legality into the qunari's occupation of the docks area that is neither stated nor really even implied is reaching.

Only a slight correction for accuracies sake. There is I think at least 2 guards that follow behind Hawke & Aveline as they are speaking to the Arishok. They were killed by the volley of spears.

[tmp7704]

Torax wrote...

Only a slight correction for accuracies sake. There is I think at least 2 guards that follow behind Hawke & Aveline as they are speaking to the Arishok. They were killed by the volley of spears.

Poor orange shirts; they're probably there because it'd be really embarassing to qunari to start attack with such advantage and fail to hit anyone...

[Torax]

tmp7704 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Only a slight correction for accuracies sake. There is I think at least 2 guards that follow behind Hawke & Aveline as they are speaking to the Arishok. They were killed by the volley of spears.

Poor orange shirts; they're probably there because it'd be really embarassing to qunari to start attack with such advantage and fail to hit anyone...

All the poor Qunari Troopers. "DAMN YOU PLOT ARMOR!!!!!!!!!!"

[Herr Uhl]

tmp7704 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Only a slight correction for accuracies sake. There is I think at least 2 guards that follow behind Hawke & Aveline as they are speaking to the Arishok. They were killed by the volley of spears.

Poor orange shirts; they're probably there because it'd be really embarassing to qunari to start attack with such advantage and fail to hit anyone...

And having their soldiers being punched out by my puny mage.

That was odd to see.

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well first Hawke would have to admit officially that he 'murdered' anyone. Or that some witness accuses him/her. Mostly Hawke walks in a room and gets attacked, or at least, if Hawke starts the fight there are no witnesses left. However, it is self defense or 'not possible to prove it wasn't self-defense'. And I guess self defense is legal in any law since nobody needs to let someone kill him/her just for the lulz.

I think given the situation, and how the man states that he has to be killed or he's going to keep doing what he's been doing, it could be presented as assisting in suicide which then gets "converted" to "justifiable homicide", specifically the case when it's 'homicide to prevent a very serious crime'. But yes, it'd be rather hard to even start the charge since all everyone but Hawke's group see is Hawke getting in and then Hawke getting out. I can't remember if you say anything specifically that you actually killed the man when you go out -- iirc, the guards present there are mostly terrified that the guy is dead and how the Magistrate is going to react to these news no matter the death reason?

Well the father of the elf girl asks you to kill him. And if you say you kill him and then go in, come out and he is dead it pretty much rises the question whether you 'murdered' him. But still no real evidence. And the guy was a murderer, if not mass murderer. So courts will probably not be willing to bring Hawke to justice for killing a mass murderer without having real evidence. I take it many cases never get to court because they are either inferior or the lack of a suspect or evidence against a possible suspect.

[caradoc2000]

tmp7704 wrote...

Poor orange shirts; they're probably there because it'd be really embarassing to qunari to start attack with such advantage and fail to hit anyone...

They rolled a natural one.

[The Angry One]

Fun fact, if you go to the docks at night when Aveline is waiting for you, all the guards with her turn hostile and attack you.
They KNOW they're cannon fodder and they're not going to take it lying down, damnit!

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And having their soldiers being punched out by my puny mage.

That was odd to see.

Well, my mage was wearing Champion armour; these Schwarzeneggeresque arms were made for punching.