185 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

vlyms1 wrote...

look, to make this clear, in Act I while you approach the qunari coumpound and it's still locked (you haven't met Javaris yet), the guard may say, "Go away human, this land is ours by TREATY", so yes it was their land with their laws, and if it was given as a gift it doesn't mean it was not a treaty... so basically Aveline was very very WRONG there, and yes my Hawke agreed with the Arishok there, always felt it was the right thing to do there.

It is theirs to use.
It is not theirs to impose their laws on.

If it was given to the Arishok as part of a treaty between Kirkwall and the Qunari, then it IS theirs to impose their laws on.  Furthermore for four years, we are told and shown that it most definately is granted extra-territorial rights.  The moment the Viscount is in grief, Aveline has to flex her Guard-Captain muscle about this.  Very dumb and very wrong.

-Polaris

Oh...you mean the same treaty that Sten says has no meaning to the qunari?

Whether land was given as a gift or not  (And I don't recall that term ever being used) it is a total stretch to say it is an embassy or that the treaty that the Qun ignore has anything talking about embassy.  In any case as pointed out the Qunari want to take Isabela away.

I also think the thought of asylum or diplomatic immunity  is not relevant, these elves are of kirwall this is not some qunari that committed the murders.  It was blatantly obivous that the Arishok just did what he did to ****** off and tweak Kikwall.  He didn't give a shi* about the lesser beings 'elves'.

It would have been a 100% derelection of duty if Aveline did not try and apprehend the murderers.

[White_Buffalo94]

vlyms1 wrote...

I think we all know how the qunari invasion started, the killing of Saemus, the loss of the tome to Isabela and most importantly, Aveline's insistence for the Arishok to give back the two elves. Ok let me tell you why Aveline insisting for them to be returned to face punishment was terribly wrong:

First of all, the coumpound where the qunari was staying was their territory by treaty, it was not part of Kirkwall anymore, it was like Par Vollen, then it had it's own administration and independence from the city state of Kirkwall.

Second I asked my criminal law teacher from my college (yes I am a lawschool student) about people who commit crimes in their country and ask for political asylum (well the two elves's situation is similar i guess, even if religion was involved to achieve this) in another country who has no extradition treaty or any good diplomatical relationships (I heard the Arishok told the Viscount to "begone" when he visited them so you can't call that good diplomacy) with the country of the criminals, and the country of the criminals wishes that country to turn them in then the will of the people of that country applies (in this case the qunari people), if they decided to hand them over it was alright, but if they refused to hand them over the country of the criminals can't do anything but leave, otherwise (what Aveline did) it will mean to interfere in the sovereignity of that country, even if it's dictator like (the Arishok is somehow like a supreme rules not a democratic president), so yeah, according to my country's laws Aveline was wrong, this goes for the real world, not sure how things are right or wrong in Thedas though.

The elves had nothing to do with the invasion. Arishok's disgust for the pisspot of a city he has been forced to stay in is what caused it. He felt he needed to convert because it disgusted him so much. The Qunari had no legal holding of that area, that was a courtesy granted by the Viscount in order to avert disaster. Never was there a claim made to legally create a qunari-controlled quarter, only none would dare challenge them directly.
Second, if the Arishok had made those two elves vidathari (convertees) in the middle of the Viscounts throneroom, Arishok would not have surrendered them as they are now considered Qunari (followers of the Qun). Also, every country, and this includes the city-states of the Free Marches, are members of the Llomerryn Accord save the Tevinter Imperium. Thus Arishok had no rights upon human/Chantry lands. Aveline was totally within her power to demand the elves back as they are still in Kirkwall, which is her jurisdiction. But like I said above, whether they were in the docks or in the keep, Arishok would never have surrendered his convertees.

Just for future references, the game is set in Thedas, so you bringing real-world policies holds no weight in this arguement.

[JasmoVT]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actaully the Viscount tells you it was a gift which does imply a de-facto if not de-jure embassy arrangement.  At any event, the compound had been treated as an embassy for four years.  Aveline knew that.  Aveline knew tensions were running sky high.  She tried to abrogate the Qunari rights in their own compound anyway (my Hawkes almost always side with the Arishok against Aveline too in this scene).

-Polaris

Actually no. an embassy only exist de jure. It might be argued it was a de facto consulate, but they would only have the privildeges refered to in the original post de jure. This entire discussion is however definitely anarchonistic in that it implies concepts that simply did not exist in the DA universe.

[Mad-Max90]

I don't know how people played that game and liked avaline, she is so boring and the fact that they made her the only tank makes me question if it was because she is a bit boring, but then again the majority of the characters were boring and borderline childish with the amount of little boy recess talk they had between characters, I personally felt the only redeeming companion is Sebastien which is a shame considering many people wouldn't even bother purchasing dlc for this game

[TEWR]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I don't know how people played that game and liked avaline, she is so boring and the fact that they made her the only tank makes me question if it was because she is a bit boring, but then again the majority of the characters were boring and borderline childish with the amount of little boy recess talk they had between characters, I personally felt the only redeeming companion is Sebastien which is a shame considering many people wouldn't even bother purchasing dlc for this game

I loved her. Outside of the obsession with the law, she had a good sense of humor. Plus, she's an Amazon who tackled and beat the **** out of a Hurlock. That made me love her even more. She was in the army and people wanted her to be the party girl. That's Isabella's job.

[Ieolus]

I don't know if we have seen any direct evidence of embassies in Thedas, but we have seen an ambassador (in Orzammar royal palace) which could provide indirect proof that they exist.

[White_Buffalo94]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I don't know how people played that game and liked avaline, she is so boring and the fact that they made her the only tank makes me question if it was because she is a bit boring, but then again the majority of the characters were boring and borderline childish with the amount of little boy recess talk they had between characters, I personally felt the only redeeming companion is Sebastien which is a shame considering many people wouldn't even bother purchasing dlc for this game

I liked Aveline. I wanted to romance her for awhile. I like her starting outfit best though. That said, I side against her during the Arishok meeting because honestly, I would not give up my followes in any case

[Sabriana]

It could also be the general meaning of an 'ambassador', and that is being a diplomat. You don't need an embassy to have diplomats running around trying to hammer out treaties.

When Hawke walks in to the viscounts office at the beginning of Act II, Bran and the viscount are talking. Bran says:"The solution was only a temporary one, but now the qunari are trying to spread their influence outside...." This is the point at which Hawke interupts the convo.

The viscount, as already pointed out, also says "the compound was a "gift" to keep tensions at bay". The way the word "gift" is treated can well mean that he doesn't mean it was a real gift to the qunari for them to make it their embassy, or their own country. I doubt that would've gone over well with Kirkwall and its Chantry/Templars/Guards.

Hawke suggests getting rid of the qunari, and the viscount answers by pointing out that he doesn't have the man-power to do that. I took that to meaning the he certainly entertained the idea, and would've kicked them out in a heart-beat if he had the resources.

He says "There are treaties, and they have been honored." but he nowhere mentions what those treaties where about. Could be anything from "You keep the peace, we let you stay in the compound and won't bother you." to "don't steal cookies from fat kids." Who knows? Neither Arishok nor Viscount let Hawke actually see the treaties.

Finally, this is Thedas, a DA setting. I've yet to come across any kind of embassy. I wonder how well an Orlesian embassy would fare in Ferelden. Especially before the blight. Or an Antivan Embassy run by the Crows. Oh dear...

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 avril 2011 - 05:03 .

[TEWR]

Sabriana wrote...

It could also be the general meaning of an 'ambassador', and that is being a diplomat. You don't need an embassy to have diplomats running around trying to hammer out treaties.

When Hawke walks in to the viscounts office at the beginning of Act II, Bran and the viscount are talking. Bran says:"The solution was only a temporary one, but now the qunari are trying to spread their influence outside...." This is the point at which Hawke interupts the convo.

The viscount, as already pointed out, also says "the compound was a "gift" to keep tensions at bay". The way the word "gift" is treated can well mean that he doesn't mean it was a real gift to the qunari for them to make it their embassy, or their own country. I doubt that would've gone over well with Kirkwall and its Chantry/Templars/Guards.

Hawke suggests getting rid of the qunari, and the viscount answers by pointing out that he doesn't have the man-power to do that. I took that to meaning the he certainly entertained the idea, and would've kicked them out in a heart-beat if he had the resources.

He says "There are treaties, and they have been honored." but he nowhere mentions what those treaties where about. Could be anything from "You keep the peace, we let you stay in the compound and won't bother you." to "don't steal cookies from fat kids." Who knows? Neither Arishok nor Viscount let Hawke actually see the treaties.

Finally, this is Thedas, a DA setting. I've yet to come across any kind of embassy. I wonder how well an Orlesian embassy would fare in Ferelden. Especially before the blight. Or an Antivan Embassy run by the Crows. Oh dear...

Somehow I can just see Zevran as an Embassy representative, saying "We are ridiculously awesome"


I realize that's your sig, but that idea came to me before I even noticed your Team Zevran poster thingy.

[Knightly_BW]

Ambessy or not Aveline was still wrong, in my opinion.

I think one thing is more important for Aveline than law, her precious Kirkwall Guardians. She was just trying to save guards face in there. If those two elves were killed another person she wouldn't be bothered. Also Aveline was well aware those guys are right and will probably executed because they are elves.

I don't usually agree with Polaris but yeah that act was hypocritical if you consider what she did with Kelder. One raped and killed many elven kids other one raped and killed an elven lass. On both situation guards did nothing because those victims were elves.

[Bmeszaros]

AlexXIV wrote...

Aveline is wrong in many things. As much as I would admire a woman like her in real life, most of the time she is somewhere between annoying and unnerving.

One of the many things that irked me was that sense of your companions asking you to help them (Anders with his bomb and Aveline with her copper marigolds, etc. ) and never really deluvging all aspects of why you are helping them. (Aveline doesn't want you know shes got a thing for Donnic until after you deliver the marigolds and Anders won't tell you he's building a bomb, even if you are best friends with him.

you would think that once you'd been in Kirkwall for 3 or 4 years with Aveline and even helped her make gaurd captain, that she would be receptive to you. its downright unfulfilling.

[Beerfish]

Asperius wrote...

Ambessy or not Aveline was still wrong, in my opinion.

I think one thing is more important for Aveline than law, her precious Kirkwall Guardians. She was just trying to save guards face in there. If those two elves were killed another person she wouldn't be bothered. Also Aveline was well aware those guys are right and will probably executed because they are elves.

I don't usually agree with Polaris but yeah that act was hypocritical if you consider what she did with Kelder. One raped and killed many elven kids other one raped and killed an elven lass. On both situation guards did nothing because those victims were elves.

So there was concrete proof that the elves sister was raped?  I must have missed that, also I only remember them saying a guard forced himself on the female elf.  Did they say she was killed?

If you are the captain of the guard you should for sure totally accept the accused and a group of totally unreliable evasive Qunari when they tell you their side of the story.  It was Avelines job to arrest the killers and to investiage the other claims, she showed in the past she is not above coming down on members or former members of the guard who do wrong.  In Kirkwall like in most other societies vigilante justice is not encouraged.  Just because the Qunari think it's a okay doesn't mean it is.

[Bmeszaros]

Beerfish wrote...

Asperius wrote...

Ambessy or not Aveline was still wrong, in my opinion.

I think one thing is more important for Aveline than law, her precious Kirkwall Guardians. She was just trying to save guards face in there. If those two elves were killed another person she wouldn't be bothered. Also Aveline was well aware those guys are right and will probably executed because they are elves.

I don't usually agree with Polaris but yeah that act was hypocritical if you consider what she did with Kelder. One raped and killed many elven kids other one raped and killed an elven lass. On both situation guards did nothing because those victims were elves.

So there was concrete proof that the elves sister was raped?  I must have missed that, also I only remember them saying a guard forced himself on the female elf.  Did they say she was killed?

If you are the captain of the guard you should for sure totally accept the accused and a group of totally unreliable evasive Qunari when they tell you their side of the story.  It was Avelines job to arrest the killers and to investiage the other claims, she showed in the past she is not above coming down on members or former members of the guard who do wrong.  In Kirkwall like in most other societies vigilante justice is not encouraged.  Just because the Qunari think it's a okay doesn't mean it is.

Its just further evidence of how corrupt the gaurd is, even with Aveline in charge, from some other parties perspective. No two factions in Kirkwall trust each other once Dumar is killed.

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

So there was concrete proof that the elves sister was raped?  I must have missed that, also I only remember them saying a guard forced himself on the female elf.  Did they say she was killed?

We never know, but we do know that Aveline herself believes the elves' story.  Why?  Because we can put her on the spot and ask her point blank if the elves are telling the truth.  She gets visibly very uncomfortable, hems and haws a bit and says, "there have been rumors....."

Given we are talking about her guardman which she defends voraciously, that tells me that Aveline knows damn well the elves are telling the truth and knows damn well they won't get a fair shake in the courts, but it doesn't matter to her.  It does matter to the Arishok (who tells her flat out that sometimes taking the law into your own hands is necessary) and I (and my Hawkes) generally agree with the Arishok here.  If justice fails you and the police are't working, then you have to make your own justice sometimes.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

Acknowledging that there have been rumors is not the same as an admission of guilt.
Also it's plainly obvious that the Arishok doesn't give a damn about what the elves did, he's using it as an excuse and proof that bas want the order of the Qun.

[Girl on a Rock]

The Angry One wrote...

Acknowledging that there have been rumors is not the same as an admission of guilt.
Also it's plainly obvious that the Arishok doesn't give a damn about what the elves did, he's using it as an excuse and proof that bas want the order of the Qun.

Mmm, she was pretty uncomfortable, though, and it doesn't seem like a stretch to think that the claims of a couple of elves would be ignored and/or hushed up to protect the guard. It's not uncommon for members of a brotherhood (and I would go so far as to say that the Guard perceives itself as a brotherhood of sorts) to protect each other, even if one of them commits a heinous act.

I think the Arishok thinks that what the elves did was justifiable given the circumstances, given the Qunari's apparent attitude that violence is an acceptable remedy to social problems, and if they were willing to accept the Qun, they were under his protection.

[Beerfish]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Acknowledging that there have been rumors is not the same as an admission of guilt.
Also it's plainly obvious that the Arishok doesn't give a damn about what the elves did, he's using it as an excuse and proof that bas want the order of the Qun.

Mmm, she was pretty uncomfortable, though, and it doesn't seem like a stretch to think that the claims of a couple of elves would be ignored and/or hushed up to protect the guard. It's not uncommon for members of a brotherhood (and I would go so far as to say that the Guard perceives itself as a brotherhood of sorts) to protect each other, even if one of them commits a heinous act.

I think the Arishok thinks that what the elves did was justifiable given the circumstances, given the Qunari's apparent attitude that violence is an acceptable remedy to social problems, and if they were willing to accept the Qun, they were under his protection.

Only if the Qunari do it themselves.  If anyone else uses violence to remedy a social problem it is totally against the Qun philosophy apparently.  This is the huge problem with the Qun they are just like the parents that 'Don't do as I do, do as I say.'

[Lianaar]

This is a little vain argument on my part, considering it was confirmed that no treaty was made.
BUT were there a treaty, it would still not mean that the land belongs to the Qunary. A treaty is a legal documentation of the freely formed will of the parties involved (yeah, that free will does suffer at times, but still, that is what treaty is). Accordingly parties put in a treaty whatever they want. Do they want to gift land to the Qunary (after being under their rule for 4 years and having beaten them out by the cost of freedom to Orlais), they can do so. But if they say: you can live here, but don't go strolling in town and obey the law of Kirkwall, they can do that too.

Why was the compound not an embassy? Because embassadors are sent by the country they represent with a letter that proves representation for the very reason of representation. The qunary in Kirkwall had no such thing. They were sent to reobtain the book. Not to represent the Qunary nation as a whole in any given matter, be that particular or general. They were refugees. They were treated with respect since they were too powerful to be angered. But they were still just refugees and (taken medieval diplomacy right) had no right to represent qunary as a whole. On that note, I hardly think that the Arishok was high ranking enough to make any treaty between Par Vollen (as nation we can say Qunary is the land of Par Vollen) and any third party. They lacked the legality and home acknowledgement of such.

So, refugees in Kirkwall broke the law of Kirkwall. What is the obligation of the guard captain? To ensure that the law is kept. Wether Aveline liked it or not, she had to do this, as it was her duty. (I didn't have a single char so far in my many play throughs who could agree with her, but that's beyond point).

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

So there was concrete proof that the elves sister was raped?  I must have missed that, also I only remember them saying a guard forced himself on the female elf.  Did they say she was killed?

We never know, but we do know that Aveline herself believes the elves' story.  Why?  Because we can put her on the spot and ask her point blank if the elves are telling the truth.  She gets visibly very uncomfortable, hems and haws a bit and says, "there have been rumors....."

Given we are talking about her guardman which she defends voraciously, that tells me that Aveline knows damn well the elves are telling the truth and knows damn well they won't get a fair shake in the courts, but it doesn't matter to her.  It does matter to the Arishok (who tells her flat out that sometimes taking the law into your own hands is necessary) and I (and my Hawkes) generally agree with the Arishok here.  If justice fails you and the police are't working, then you have to make your own justice sometimes.

-Polaris

Eh?  You as per usual are jumping to mountains of conclusions with not a shred of proof when it suits you.  Rumors do not equal proof.  As I said in the other thead, the Arishok says this now because he choses to.  Any time Hawke or others took the law into their own hands he berated them for doing it.  He is even critical of Hawke for killing Tal Vasoth.

You are totally assuming that Aveline knew all about it and had proof and totally assuming that the Arishok is only defending the elves because he has their best interest at heart.

[Rockpopple]

Plus Polaris is, as usual, being disingenuous when it comes other's statements.

Aveline doesn't "hem-and-haw" nor does she look uncomfortable. I invite anyone to watch the scene. She answers clearly, "There have been rumors, I'll look into it/I'm looking into it". That doesn't mean she's covering for anybody. She's guard-captain, but she can't simply arrest a guard just because people accuse him of rape. She has to INVESTIGATE it.

So she could have been either in the course of investigating it, or getting around to investigating it. Kirkwall is a big nation, with a lot of crime. What's she supposed to do, drop everything?

There's absolutely zero evidence that she's covering up for any guard, and there's ample proof that she will either investigate the matter, or is still investigating it. If she were a real person, I'd say you were slandering her. But that's just what you do.

If you can't get your point across without obfuscating and dissembling, maybe you shouldn't be making that point.

[IanPolaris]

She looked pretty uncomfortabe to me when she admits this and she damn well doesn't volunteer that information (which would improve her standing with the Arishok because it would at least aknowledge her own responsibility here).

Quite frankly my Hawke is the only one that accepts responibility for his actions (or is at least the only one that can) other than, ironically Anders at the very end of the game.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Arishok was never critical to any of my Hawkes for killing Tal Vashoth. The Arishok himself says that the Tal Vashoth are dead by virtue of what they chose to become and that they are no longer considered people (since the Qun loses nothing by weakness leaving it). He's more upset that you wanted coin for it.

-Polaris

[Mnemnosyne]

Rockpopple wrote...

Plus Polaris is, as usual, being disingenuous when it comes other's statements.

Aveline doesn't "hem-and-haw" nor does she look uncomfortable. I invite anyone to watch the scene. She answers clearly, "There have been rumors, I'll look into it/I'm looking into it". That doesn't mean she's covering for anybody. She's guard-captain, but she can't simply arrest a guard just because people accuse him of rape. She has to INVESTIGATE it.

So she could have been either in the course of investigating it, or getting around to investigating it. Kirkwall is a big nation, with a lot of crime. What's she supposed to do, drop everything?

There's absolutely zero evidence that she's covering up for any guard, and there's ample proof that she will either investigate the matter, or is still investigating it. If she were a real person, I'd say you were slandering her. But that's just what you do.

If you can't get your point across without obfuscating and dissembling, maybe you shouldn't be making that point.

I honestly did feel like she wasn't doing as much as she should have been there.  If she was investigating, why did the elves feel like she wasn't?  Why was the guard still on duty?  Did the accusations seem baseless on the face of it, so baseless that she didn't feel the need to take away the guard's authority?  Because if you take an accusation like that seriously, the first thing you need to do is suspend that individual's authority so they cannot do it again while you investigate (and so they cannot use that authority to hamper the investigation).

Frankly I also find she's very easy on her guards.  Earlier in the same qunari quests, if you take her to interrogate the guard at the Hanged Man, she gives him, as punishment for accepting a bribe, abandoning his duty, and knowingly allowing a group of delegates to be kidnapped, ten days on 'the wall'.  Presumably this is an unpleasant assignment?  That's it?  Why doesn't she summarily dismiss him from the guard, and perhaps lay charges for accepting bribery on him too!?

So I honestly don't find it hard to believe that she isn't being as diligent as she should be in investigating this.  Another obvious example where she doesn't investigate enough is with Quentin, where despite having the location of the warehouse and plenty of evidence from Emeric, she ignores it and behaves as though he's a crackpot.

Aveline is good at protecting her men and cleaning up visible, obvious crime.  I do not feel she is particularly good at investigating less obvious crime, and she tends to be very easy on her men, even those who commit serious offenses.

[The Angry One]

I thought "the wall" was their equivalent of being placed in stocks. I may be wrong though.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

I thought "the wall" was their equivalent of being placed in stocks. I may be wrong though.

I understood it to be punishment duty although the game doesn't specify what. 

-Polaris