185 réponses à ce sujet

[Volourn]

"Second I asked my criminal law teacher from my college (yes I am a lawschool student) about people who commit crimes in their country and ask for political asylum (well the two elves's situation is similar i guess, even if religion was involved to achieve this) in another country who has no extradition treaty or any good diplomatical relationships (I heard the Arishok told the Viscount to "begone" when he visited them so you can't call that good diplomacy) with the country of the criminals, and the country of the criminals wishes that country to turn them in then the will of the people of that country applies (in this case the qunari people), if they decided to hand them over it was alright, but if they refused to hand them over the country of the criminals can't do anything but leave, otherwise (what Aveline did) it will mean to interfere in the sovereignity of that country, even if it's dictator like (the Arishok is somehow like a supreme rules not a democratic president), so yeah, according to my country's laws Aveline was wrong, this goes for the real world, not sure how things are right or wrong in Thedas though."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I need a good laugh. Thanks.

[earl of the north]

On the original OP....although I'm a little angry that the cake situation has not improved in DA2.

I'm ignoring the first point, since its already been proven to be totally inaccurate.

Second I asked my criminal law teacher from my college (yes I am a lawschool student) about people who commit crimes in their country and ask for political asylum (well the two elves's situation is similar i guess, even if religion was involved to achieve this) in another country who has no extradition treaty or any good diplomatical relationships (I heard the Arishok told the Viscount to "begone" when he visited them so you can't call that good diplomacy) with the country of the criminals, and the country of the criminals wishes that country to turn them in then the will of the people of that country applies (in this case the qunari people), if they decided to hand them over it was alright, but if they refused to hand them over the country of the criminals can't do anything but leave, otherwise (what Aveline did) it will mean to interfere in the sovereignity of that country, even if it's dictator like (the Arishok is somehow like a supreme rules not a democratic president), so yeah, according to my country's laws Aveline was wrong, this goes for the real world, not sure how things are right or wrong in Thedas though.

You asked your teacher the wrong question since the elves aren't in a different country they commited murder in Kirkwall and are still in Kirkwall, even if the Qunari are being allowed to squat in that part of the city.

A more real life similar to the game situation would be if two citzens of one country murdered a policeman and than ran to a foreign embassy and asked to become citzens of that country to avoid prosecution.

Modifié par earl of the north, 14 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[Lianaar]

earl of the north wrote...
You asked your teacher the wrong question since the elves aren't in a different country they commited murder in Kirkwall and are still in Kirkwall, even if the Qunari are being allowed to squat in that part of the city.

A more real life similar to the game situation would be if two citzens of one country murdered a policeman and than ran to a foreign embassy and asked to become citzens of that country to avoid prosecution.

I am unsure he asked the wrong question. But I think he lacked necessary information on
- international diplomacy customs in Thedas
- international law on acknowledgement of embassies and ruled decisions
- the actual legal setting of the Qunari compound

So if we presume the Qunary had the proper representation of their country (as in they had the right to speak for all Qunary and make treaties in their name) and such representational rights was acknowledged by law and powers in Kirkwall and there was a real estate related agreement which made the compound an extraterritorial jurisdiction area within Kirkwall, making it part of Par Vollen, and the elves were -political- refugies as opposed to simple criminals avoiding law... then what he wrote is correct. And this could be the case. Though I doubt it is.

The question that would more interest me, if Kirkwall had any sort of law procedure with guarantees to the citzens (kind of implied by the magister whose son went insane), if this law applied to second class citizens or not, if the elves were convicted according that law or not or were merely requested to appear before court.

[TEWR]

earl of the north wrote...

On the original OP....although I'm a little angry that the cake situation has not improved in DA2.

Imagine how Sten feels. He's probably really pissed off right now.

You asked your teacher the wrong question since the elves aren't in a different country they commited murder in Kirkwall and are still in Kirkwall, even if the Qunari are being allowed to squat in that part of the city.

A more real life similar to the game situation would be if two citzens of one country murdered a policeman and than ran to a foreign embassy and asked to become citzens of that country to avoid prosecution.

See, in regards to the whole political asylum thing, this isn't a case of political asylum. It's a case of Sanctuary. Political asylum is when a person is being persecuted for their beliefs and is given safe haven somewhere else. Sanctuary is being given safe haven where even the law can't touch you. And since the Qun is a philosophy that defines everything, this is claiming Sanctuary, even if they must convert to be free.

The Qun defines everything, and it's

[Rockpopple]

DG already stated that the Qunari Compound was not legally Qunari land. It was Kirkwall land. Period, end of sentence.

Sanctuary or Asylum is a moot point, because it isn't Qunari land. Qunari laws don't apply. Kirkwall's laws apply. The Arishok can command his own people, and they can follow the Qun, but only because Kirkwall allows it.

[TEWR]

Rockpopple wrote...

DG already stated that the Qunari Compound was not legally Qunari land. It was Kirkwall land. Period, end of sentence.

Sanctuary or Asylum is a moot point, because it isn't Qunari land. Qunari laws don't apply. Kirkwall's laws apply. The Arishok can command his own people, and they can follow the Qun, but only because Kirkwall allows it.

yea I knew that DG said that. Saw his post.. Guess I should've said "If they were Qunari lands, it would be Sanctuary over political asylum". Oops....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[Rockpopple]

I wasn't gettin' on your balls, ol chap. I was just saying in general to this thread. =P

[Badger8126]

Laws are only as good as your ability to enforce them and the Vicount admits more or less that the city and the guard can't enforce the law in the Qunari compound.
The chantry sees the Qun as an invading religion, the idea of sanctuary is perfectly valid as many churches used to offer sanctuary from the law of the land even for criminals.

The elf in the poison gas quest admits that elves are losing themselves to the Qun.
Elves are second class citizens in most of Thedas but with the Qunari they would be treated as equals, no wonder most would prefer life under the Qun rather than live at the whim of uncaring humans.

Expecting the Qunari to just hand over those elves is misguided at best and hiding behind Hawke just shows the Arishok that the guard is weak and cowardly.

[Peer of the Empire]

I'm in favor of liberating the mages if it means joining the Tevinter in their eternal war with the Qunari.. and winning

[earl of the north]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Imagine how Sten feels. He's probably really pissed off right now.

I demand a cake making companion for DA3!

See, in regards to the whole political asylum thing, this isn't a case of political asylum. It's a case of Sanctuary. Political asylum is when a person is being persecuted for their beliefs and is given safe haven somewhere else. Sanctuary is being given safe haven where even the law can't touch you. And since the Qun is a philosophy that defines everything, this is claiming Sanctuary, even if they must convert to be free.

The Qun defines everything, and it's

It does seem more a case of sanctuary rather than asylum.

The Qunari make the point...rather forcibly several times, that they protect their own and from their point of view anybody who is Qunari is automatically outside any one else's law. So in a way Aveline is wrong to try and get the elves back since there is probably zero chance that the Arishok will hand them over, but she really has no choice unless she wants to set a precedent that you can murder anyone you like as long as you convert to the Qun.

Badger8126 wrote...

The elf in the poison gas quest admits that elves are losing themselves to the Qun.
Elves are second class citizens in most of Thedas but with the Qunari they would be treated as equals, no wonder most would prefer life under the Qun rather than live at the whim of uncaring humans.

Which will probably change once they are assigned their new roles that they will spend the rest of their lives fulfilling.
 

Modifié par earl of the north, 14 avril 2011 - 09:40 .

[UltiPup]

Ah, trying to apply our laws to an imaginary country. I feel like we are getting nowhere fast.


This situation isn't black and white. Its muddy at best. The Qunari are, at the simplest, guests in Kirkwall. The compound isn't their own little territory. They do have to abide by Kirkwall law. The Guards have to protect that law so Aveline isn't technically in the wrong for demanding the elves back. They are criminals in Kirkwall and thus she has a right to claim them.

Should Aveline have predicted how the Arishok would react? That's stretching it. The only powerful person who can really talk to the Arishok and understand how they work is Hawke. That is why she brought Hawke with her as sort of a neutral party. It isn't Aveline's fault that the Arishok refused to hand them over. This was the first time she was confronting the Qunari about this. If she didn't even try to stop this, then people would willingly commit crimes and then convert to the Qun to avoid the Guard. Not once did she ever try to force the Arishok. The Arishok struck first.