359 réponses à ce sujet

[caridounette]

 After a few playtroughs and trying diffrent outcoms for alll the quests, heres my thoughts on Act III in general and siding with mages specially.

First let me say im really satisfied with how there is no good/evil side. This is not about why one must choose a side over the other one but about how it was rendered and how much you could give voice to your character in all those events.

As i went through the game as a mage, i was cautious not to let abominations/blood mages live but i was happy to blame the Templars for forcing mages to such extents. I sent Feynriel to the Dalish then helped him die instead of helping him escape to the Tevinters. I saved the starkheven mages and sent Ella back to her mother but killed DuPuis for using blood magic. I didnt blame the death of my mother on magic but on a madman who could have done the same a knife. I went all out rival with Merril. You guys see the line of thoughts... somewhat cautious promage. I enjoyed all the choices i was given that far.

When Act III hit, i took the middle ground stand, while knowing well enough i would probably not be able to keep that position much longer. I was hoping to see how the event comming would push my hawke on one side or the other... to stick with the mages and my beliefs for freedom or to concede defeat and side with Meredith. But things really went downhill from there.

As a player roleplaying a mage, i found it difficult to understanding how hard it was not to turn to blood magic. I was backed in corners many times in the game but never did it felt hard to resist demons and blood magic. I wasnt plagued with nightmares or anything. Hell i can only imagine how much more disconnected i would feel from the game if i had chosen the blood mage spec. The rift between the almighty Hawke and the poor souls who cant control themselves would have been even wider.

While doing Meredith's quest and searching for escaped mages, i was trully disppointed not to be able to talk to them. Yes, i could question their family extensively but i dont feel i was given the opportunity to interact with said mages. Im not saying i should have been able to save them, or change their minds. But there could have been a confrontation, they could even have blamed me, said i had it easy or that they took exemple on the Champion and tried to defend their cause with the powers they have. Anything that would have made me (the player) feel an emotional connection to their struggle. Instead i really did feel like an errand boy. It was like at that point the game had nothing new to say about mages (the whole act was revolving only around that ><). There was also an opportunity missed there to playout your Champion status. Not saying that everyone should applause you but that people should react to it for good and for ill so the player gets to feel the part. 

As for Orsino's quest, i can understand Grace turning to blood magic. After all she did fallow Decimus so she might not be the strongest mind to resist demons. But why did she attack Hawke on sight? Why not try to win you to her cause and only turn if you try to confront her about her methods? It makes it feel like the Champion's support means nothing. At that point I started wondering if I just could not understand what being the Champion meant. On one hand theres the pressing 1 button = awsome but the story really does not make you feel that way, nor does the never changing city. Dont call me champion and i will embrace playing the underdog... just dont do both at a time, it gets confusing.

So comes the endgame and i decide to save the untainted mages and apprentices from a Rite of Annulement I felt was unjust. But i did not intend to save the ones resorting to blood magic. Those would have gotten some alone time with Fenris because they are weak and a curse to other mages trying to be free. Why is it that in the protemplar ending you can save your sister and the mages who did not turn to blood magic? But in the promage you dont have the chance to interact. I would have liked being able to say to the mages <I will fight for you but should you turn to blood magic and demons know that ill take your head off myself>. That could have explained Orsino's fate : in the end he liked his fellow mages more then anything else and lost control. I did not have a problem with Orsino turning against the Champion, but the way it was handled did not make sense.

Finally, the Epilogue really lost me. First, i do not get a hint on the outcome of what i tried to do the whole act, i.e. free the good mages from the Circle before they all go crazy. Did they all die? Did i help them escape and protected them until they were out for the city? Did i free many blood mages while trying to help the good ones? Nor do i get any information on the fate of Kirkwall. How am I, as a player, supposed to care about a city i played in for 40 hours, a city Hawke helped shape and save, when not only does nothing changes (i can understand budget and time contraints) but also no one can be bothered to tell me about in the end (that bit i cant understand)?Instead, i get told i started a mages/templars war, which is grand indeed, and probably important in the long run, but so disconnected from Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall and me as a player. 

Well thats that, i dont know if other people feel the same about the mage ending and playing a mage in general? I have to say i still enjoyed the game alot and maybe thats why im bothered to post about it. Oh and i appologize for the spelling/grammar, I dont write in english that often.

[mcsupersport]

I was playing a mage, and was pretty much on the side with the Templars the entire game. Too many bloodmages, and too many people turning to demons...then the Templars decided to kill everyone for something Anders did?? Just couldn't support the murder of "innocents" because of something someone else did, so I supported the mages. Then I had to sit though the stupid antics of Orisino and his bloated boss battle, after I wiped the floor with the Templars.....poor writing the entire ending.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

[IanPolaris]

Shinian2 wrote...

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

It felt like railroading because it was railroading.  The Devs in Act 3 make it very clear which side you are supposed to agree with (The Genocidal Templars....and yes the Right of Annulment IS genocide right down to killing little children).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

It's strange that you only get a feel for how an apostate must feel in Kirkwall if Hawke isn't a mage, because Bethany is the only one who expresses any issues with being an illegal mage in a city that's in the grip of templars. You'd think being an apostate would give Hawke a deeper insight into the mage and templar dicotomy in Kirkwall rather than being a warrior or rogue.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's strange that you only get a feel for how an apostate must feel in Kirkwall if Hawke isn't a mage, because Bethany is the only one who expresses any issues with being an illegal mage in a city that's in the grip of templars. You'd think being an apostate would give Hawke a deeper insight into the mage and templar dicotomy in Kirkwall rather than being a warrior or rogue.

Indeed, and I think you posted a cartoon that illustrated this brilliantly not so long ago.  As Apostate_Hawke, I can do open and visible battlemagic literaly in front of the Knight Commander's own office as a penniless Fereldan refugee and no one bothers to arrest/confine me?  Realy?  I can use open bloodmagic when saving Cullen's sorry behind and he forgets I am a mage (let alone maleficar) when we next meet? (Mages aren't like you and me......brilliant!)

Man, oh, man...it's no wonder it's harder to appreciate what it means to be a mage in Thedas in DA2!  You never experience it!

-Polaris

[jds1bio]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's strange that you only get a feel for how an apostate must feel in Kirkwall if Hawke isn't a mage, because Bethany is the only one who expresses any issues with being an illegal mage in a city that's in the grip of templars. You'd think being an apostate would give Hawke a deeper insight into the mage and templar dicotomy in Kirkwall rather than being a warrior or rogue.

I was hoping there'd be a special quest where an apostate Hawke would be forced to deal with temptations from the Fade.  And I don't mean Feynriel's quest.

Modifié par jds1bio, 12 avril 2011 - 07:40 .

[Talin]

I would have to admit I was going to side with the Templars just to spite Anders for betraying my trust...but doing so really is what Anders wanted. For you to kill him and turn him into a Martyr for mages everywhere and you into a villain for them to curse.

[caridounette]

IanPolaris wrote...

Indeed, and I think you posted a cartoon that illustrated this brilliantly not so long ago.  As Apostate_Hawke, I can do open and visible battlemagic literaly in front of the Knight Commander's own office as a penniless Fereldan refugee and no one bothers to arrest/confine me?  Realy?  I can use open bloodmagic when saving Cullen's sorry behind and he forgets I am a mage (let alone maleficar) when we next meet? (Mages aren't like you and me......brilliant!)

Man, oh, man...it's no wonder it's harder to appreciate what it means to be a mage in Thedas in DA2!  You never experience it!

-Polaris

Blood mage is so broken. Not specwise but storywise. There is no way to feel what those other mages are confronted to. Theres no downside, no inside questionning.

You just happen to be that one almighty blood mage who never has nightmares...

it just cheapens the whole game from the mage point of view

[Tainan7509]

I agree with your point and part of what you saying is what i felt after completing it, but still a good game.... (not the best however).

[sphinxess]

Zarek_Magnum wrote...

I would have to admit I was going to side with the Templars just to spite Anders for betraying my trust...but doing so really is what Anders wanted. For you to kill him and turn him into a Martyr for mages everywhere and you into a villain for them to curse.

Exactly

So I kill Anders making him a footnote then side with the Mages as their great hero

[Morroian]

Shinian2 wrote...

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

You can convince Thrask etc. that you're not. Grace just wants revenge and she's a blood mage so its not that difficult to see her poisoning others minds.

[Wulfram]

"Best Served Cold" is a really awful quest - it plays like it was originally supposed to have two paths, but in the end they just forced the player down the templar supporting one. I enjoyed most of the rest of Act 3 though.

[Morroian]

IanPolaris wrote...

It felt like railroading because it was railroading.  The Devs in Act 3 make it very clear which side you are supposed to agree with (The Genocidal Templars....and yes the Right of Annulment IS genocide right down to killing little children).

I don't agree, I just think they're trying to make it easier to side with the templars, albeit in a ham fisted way, because otherwise it would be close to impossible to side with them objectively. Its hard enough as it is when the rite of anullment is manifestly unjust.

[Dave of Canada]

Shinian2 wrote...

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

DId you even bother to talk with her when she was back in the Circle? She believes that she could've never have been found by the Templar unless somebody who knew she was alive, aka you, warned them. She was insane and blaming you for it since act 2, it isn't some random sudden change of character.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

(The Genocidal Templars....and yes the Right of Annulment IS genocide right down to killing little children).

-Polaris

Stop trying to act like templar supporters are evil people, you're getting really annoying with it and it's getting quite pathetic when you do it in almost every single mage thread.

-Dave

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 avril 2011 - 10:19 .

[Alamar2078]

In terms of showing the mage's plight Bioware hamstrung themselves. With so much going on inside the city limits you pretty much either had to have everyone ignore the fact that you're an apostate OR they would have needed to pull another get-out-of-jail-free card by being a Gray Warden or similar.

[jds1bio]

Alamar2078 wrote...

In terms of showing the mage's plight Bioware hamstrung themselves. With so much going on inside the city limits you pretty much either had to have everyone ignore the fact that you're an apostate OR they would have needed to pull another get-out-of-jail-free card by being a Gray Warden or similar.

Meredith does mention in Act III that she cuts you some slack because you're Champion of Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

DId you even bother to talk with her when she was back in the Circle? She believes that she could've never have been found by the Templar unless somebody who knew she was alive, aka you, warned them. She was insane and blaming you for it since act 2, it isn't some random sudden change of character.

Grace isn't the only one who makes this claim, though. "Best Served Cold" forces you down a linear path where your past choices don't matter - no matter how much Hawke has helped the mages, no matter how anti-Meredith Hawke has shown to be, everyone working for Thrask will assume that the Champion is working for the Knight-Commander.

It makes no sense and it railroads the characters in the name of the plot. The mages and the templars working for Ser Thrask's initiative are under the impression that an apostate Hawke or a Hawke with an apostate sister who publicly denounced Meredith before the public is working for her, and this makes no sense.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

(The Genocidal Templars....and yes the Right of Annulment IS genocide right down to killing little children).

-Polaris

Stop trying to act like templar supporters are evil people, you're getting really annoying with it and it's getting quite pathetic when you do it in almost every single mage thread.

-Dave

I will stop when the Templar supporters aknowledge that the Right of Annulment IS an act of genocide and thus evil.  If committing an evil act makes you an evil person, then perhaps the Templar supporters should reconsider their stances.

-Polaris

[White_Buffalo94]

jds1bio wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

In terms of showing the mage's plight Bioware hamstrung themselves. With so much going on inside the city limits you pretty much either had to have everyone ignore the fact that you're an apostate OR they would have needed to pull another get-out-of-jail-free card by being a Gray Warden or similar.

Meredith does mention in Act III that she cuts you some slack because you're Champion of Kirkwall.

Yeah, the fact that she couldn't do anything about it has no impact of that decision AT ALL. She knows you'd whoop her in a fight. That's why she doesn't pick a fight with Hawke

[White_Buffalo94]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

(The Genocidal Templars....and yes the Right of Annulment IS genocide right down to killing little children).

-Polaris

Stop trying to act like templar supporters are evil people, you're getting really annoying with it and it's getting quite pathetic when you do it in almost every single mage thread.

-Dave

I will stop when the Templar supporters aknowledge that the Right of Annulment IS an act of genocide and thus evil.  If committing an evil act makes you an evil person, then perhaps the Templar supporters should reconsider their stances.

-Polaris

Well Gregoir is a really cool templar. Not a hard ass or anything gimpy like that

[White_Buffalo94]

Shinian2 wrote...

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

I also felt that way. It made me want to gut that bimbo. Grace, I mean. I wanted to run over Meredith with a cementroller I love to hate her xD
and...
@Mcsupersport I agree, I didn't like how Orsino turns on you. It made me consider siding with Templars, but then I realize that his idiocy isn't enough to make me turn against mages, whom I beleve are inherently good. Even Uldred was probably not a bother until he was overpowered by a demon, his own fault no doubt.

[stobie]

Filament wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

Good analysis. I also didnt like being told I was 'supporting Meredith' during the runup to meeting Grace, when the whole game I had been supporting mages. It felt like railroading.

DId you even bother to talk with her when she was back in the Circle? She believes that she could've never have been found by the Templar unless somebody who knew she was alive, aka you, warned them. She was insane and blaming you for it since act 2, it isn't some random sudden change of character.

And that's why Grace is on par with Mother Petrice in my book for most hated character in the game.

Yup! Grace & Petrice edge out all others in my Most Hated.  I'd put the abusive templars in there, Alrik & Kerras, but they lack that awful snarkiness that Grace & Petrice have. (Petrice by a nose, because she makes me want to punch kittens)    On the other hand, I really *like* them as villains - easy to hate!   I was more bothered by *not* hating Meredith or Orsino, but after a while, I find I prefer it this way - it makes the choice more interesting, and it feels more real.  

When I clicked on Grace, she seemed to be whining that I sent her off without food - for 3 years.   Grrr.