359 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

What? When in Act 2? I only got a scene where the kid tells me he wants me to save him from the crazy blood mages and just wants to go home. Some of the character reactions must really change.

Video or anything?

If you make a new thread and ask someone to provide you with a video of the conversation, I'm certain someone can provide one for you. I have the console and I don't have video to show anyone anything, but I'm not the only person who has addressed Alain admitting to being raped by a templar.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Keep on with your ridiculous hyperbole.

1.  Don't know where you want to go with that.  Want to find me some other evil Templars?  Please do.

2.  She says nothing about the mages at all, except Ella.  She singles Ella out.  And Ella is good.  Got it now?

3.  She mentions one mage.  One.  Out of the countless others that everyone wants to speculate are the soul of goodness.  So, yea, you want to take information from that?  Go ahead.

Yes, discussing this with you does seem to be a lost cause. 

I was going to ignore this, but for the sake of correcting an... "inaccuracy" that may cloud people's judgment, here is Bethany's letter:

Dear <PC name>,

I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been bearable, even though the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.

I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a shine to me. Adorable!

Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!

I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.

With love, Bethany


She mentions ONE templar by name, and ONE mage by name.  Both of which she mentions as part of a group.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Would you have preferred to have the opportunity to side with Ser Thrask and provide a middle ground of mages and templars working together?

Who wouldn't?  Thrask's only mistake was letting Grace's idiocy ruin everything.

Benchmark wrote...

What? When in Act 2? I only got a scene where the kid tells me he wants me to save him from the crazy blood mages and just wants to go home. Some of the character reactions must really change.

Video or anything?

I don't know exactly which scene he's refering to.  I figured the rape thing was in reference to what he says to a diplomatic response at the end of Best Served Cold.  He says they're just willing to do whatever it takes to get away from the templars and, he hangs his head and kind of looks distant as he adds something along the lines of "and what they make you do."  I'm hard pressed to think of anything a templar could want out of an imprisoned Circle mage other than sick gratification.

[Benchmark]

I found a mention of it. It seems Alain says Keras is coming to his room at night and will tranq him if he tells anyone.

Still not really relevant to the debate, especially since Alain says it even if you killed Keras...

And making Keras more hate worthy didn't seem necessary after he threatened Thrask. I wanted to kill him for that alone.

[Paeyne]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

Polaris uses this argument frequently and it is a fallacious argument.

The fact that Anders says he acted alone is not proof that he acted alone.

He didn't act alone, not if Hawke helped him.

If you're looking to blame mages from the Circle of Magi when we have no WoG or any in-game evidence, then you're providing speculation. So far, all I see is speculation being used to condemn the mages and apprentices of the Kirkwall Circle when we're never afforded an opportunity to get to know many or most of the mages who are imprisoned.

I am not condemning the mages.  I doubt that they had anything to do with the Chantry distruction.  However my doubt is not proof any more than Ander's assertions are proof.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

He may be telling the truth and he may be lying.  He has lied in the past.  If he had help from Circle mages, he has every reason to lie to protect them.

I believe that a Circle mage is certainly going to stand out in the Chantry full of clergy members and templars.

Why?  They didn't seem to have a problem with Anders.  Can Circle Mages not change their clothes? Maybe leave their sticks at home?   Do the sisters at the Chantry know all Circle mages?  Even if they didn't go to the Chantry they could have helped him with his research of the Tevinter spell or helped him acquire components he needed if Hawke did not.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

You are correct in stating that the Circle cannot be condemned in an absense of knowledge, however they cannot be absolved in an absense of knowledge either.

If Anders confesses to the crime and acknowledges that he wants a war between mages and templars, then I can address his guilt and their innocence. He confessed before the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall.

Which should have been done and an investigation launched.  Unfortunately Meridith is insane at this point.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Unless you're arguing that a majority or many mages helped Anders while being locked in the Gallows, I'm certain this discussion isn't going to go in circles with absolutely no consensus reached...

I am not arguing this at all.  He might have received help from some Circle mages or he might have acted alone.

We have no PROOF either way.  We may never know.

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

I found a mention of it. It seems Alain says Keras is coming to his room at night and will tranq him if he tells anyone.

Still not really relevant to the debate, especially since Alain says it even if you killed Keras...

And making Keras more hate worthy didn't seem necessary after he threatened Thrask. I wanted to kill him for that alone.

I guess this is why I never saw it.  I never, ever let that scumbag live past the Act of Mercy quest.  Even the pro-Circle characters shouldn't really.  He shows up planning to kill everyone just because he can.  He doesn't want to take them in alive but will defend himself, he wants to go in guns-ablazing and kill every mage he can.

I wonder if it's a dialogue error that he says it in Best Served Cold even if Karras is dead when he goes to the Circle, or if he's just one of many templars... endulging.

[IanPolaris]

Paeyne,

There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.

You really are defending this?

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Paeyne,

There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.

You really are defending this?

-Polaris

It's a lot more defendable than genocide, and lots of people are defending that.

....  You know, it's depressing to actually type that out and realize how true it is.  

[Xewaka]

IanPolaris wrote...
Paeyne,
There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.
You really are defending this?
-Polaris

Anders recognizes himself at some point as the member of an underground mage movement that smuggles magi out of the tower through the lyrium tunnels. That kind of network cannot work without inside help.

[ForeignPatriot]

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Paeyne,
There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.
You really are defending this?
-Polaris

Anders recognizes himself at some point as the member of an underground mage movement that smuggles magi out of the tower through the lyrium tunnels. That kind of network cannot work without inside help.

I think there are two things that need strong consideration in this argument.

1.- Meredith was a crazy bat.

2.- I don't think she was annulling the circle because of what Anders did. He just gave her a politically viable excuse. Remember, this is Thedas not the Western society of Earth. For all we know, in Kirkwall its guilty until proven innocent (like the French legal system of yore).

Also, we are dealing with a group of people that the general population fears out of ignorance and would readily side with Meredith. Kind of like when a cop pulls you over and you didn't do anything wrong, even if there is no evidence to prove you did anything wrong, the Judge will almost always take the law enforcement officer's word over yours. And this is in the USA where we usually think we're innocent until proven guilty.

Lastly, she can't "partially annul" the circle. Chantry law says that when you invoke the rite, you have to invoke it fully. This is not because it wants to be genocidal towards mages, its because of the belief that the risks of allowing possibly corrupted mages to live far out weight the benefits of sparing the innocents. 

Either way, you can't just say people are "justifying genocide" by trying to side with the Templars. That's purposefully  ignoring the actual circumstances. If you want to be THAT simplistic about it then, people who beat the game are supporting a mass murderer, for that is what Hawke is in the end.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Paeyne is not claiming that mages did help Anders. He merely points out we have absolutely no way of knwing if they did, and that they might have at some point along the process.

[Pyro_Monkey]

I just finished my playthrough as a mage, though it was a bit weird to be throwing fireballs around and no one seemed to notice, but there were enough scenes to make it interesting. recruiting fenris for example, he notices you are a mage, and Carver has a number of lines about hiding you from the templars. In act 3 you're openly an apostate (cullen mentions it when you speak to him, as does Meredith (trick is to refuse her more often, or sometimes to choose the aggressive response, then she'll start threatening you and calling you an apostate). Anyway, there is a lot of unique dialogue which shows up if you're a mage, though not nearly enough.

[FedericoV]

Genocide or not, who cares at the end? It's bad, really bad. But faceless innocents die all the time in Thedas and there is no difference between the mages/civilan dying in Kirkwall or all the poor slaves killed by Magisters in Tevinter. I could not change the situation. And I feel no responsability for what's happened, if not for helping Anders in his personal quest (metagaming be damned). But I killed Anders and that should have been the end of it for me.

If the writers have not decided for me, I would have fleed from Kirkwall the moment after I've executed Anders. No matter what you do, a lot of innocents will die in both sides and you'll have to kill both leaders. So, it could even be morally ambiguos, but it's good material for a book and not for a videogame (especially an RPG) that should be interactive or give solid motivations for plot driven events.

In general, I do agree with the OP's analisys. In Act 3, as a Mage, I faced a lack of motivation in relation to the main plot because I feel forced to follow a story that was not related to me in any way, if not for the kidnapping of Carver. They are all crazy and misguided and there is nothing I can do to change the situation. There is nothing personal that could connect me to the conflict. All the choices I made in the previous events equals to nothing. Being the Champion is clearly an empty title. Really, having played the ironic/skeptik/neutral/cynic Hawke along the way, why should I care?

I do not know the reason, but while in DA:O the writers have made a great work to make me relate to the main plot with all the nice main quests, in DA2 the story appears to be about Meredith and Orsino, not Hawke. And that's pretty strange considering that the game focuses so much on the personality of Hawke. Mind, I think that DA2 story could have been really superior to DA:O's one. It's the execution of it in the context of a game that it's poor and crafted badly.

Modifié par FedericoV, 16 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[Rifneno]

ForeignPatriot wrote...

2.- I don't think she was annulling the circle because of what Anders did. He just gave her a politically viable excuse. Remember, this is Thedas not the Western society of Earth. For all we know, in Kirkwall its guilty until proven innocent (like the French legal system of yore).

Indeed, she most certainly was trying to Annul it before the Anders incident.  If you let Ser Karras live (why would you?!) then in Act III you can talk to him and he'll tell you Meredith asked for the RoA.

Also, we are dealing with a group of people that the general population fears out of ignorance and would readily side with Meredith.

Actually they make several mentions of many of the townsfolk being on the side of the mages.  Probably because they see how brutal and abusive the templars of Kirkwall are.  In fact many of them might not even believe Anders did it if he wasn't around anymore to verify it.  The man's got a reputation, and not a bad one.  The man spent 7 years healing and curing poor people for free at the risk of his own neck (his clinic would surely draw the attention of the templars if they knew about it).  Hell, before Hawke can even meet him a bunch of guys confront him/her and are willing to fight to death if they feel Hawke is a threat to Anders.

Either way, you can't just say people are "justifying genocide" by trying to side with the Templars. That's purposefully  ignoring the actual circumstances. If you want to be THAT simplistic about it then, people who beat the game are supporting a mass murderer, for that is what Hawke is in the end.

We're not ignoring anything.  Meredith a lunatic and there was no good reason to call for the RoA.  If this was a Ferelden Tower type deal where the place is crawling with demons and forcibly converting mages then you'd have a valid point.  It's not.  The place only goes crazy because the templars burst in and start slaughtering anything that moves.  The Circle was no immediate danger to anyone, and likely wouldn't have been a danger period if not for the fact the templars are imprisoning them in Demon Central and abusing them in virtually every way possible.  Comparing what happens at the end of DA2 to a legitimate and sadly necessary Annulment is like comparing Columbine to the state executing a killer.

[Asdara]

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Paeyne,

There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.

You really are defending this?

-Polaris

It's a lot more defendable than genocide, and lots of people are defending that.

....  You know, it's depressing to actually type that out and realize how true it is.  

It is pretty depressingly true; the acts of this whole line of events are all morally reprehensible from a present day real person's average point of view (at least for people in countries wealthy enough to be both a) playing this game as a leisure activity and able to post frequently at our pleasure to this forum).  I really think this is part of what makes DA2, for all else that can be said to be off about it, very thought provoking.  There aren't so very many games I can think of off hand that provide such stimulating conversation that Bioware generates with this series paired up with these boards.  

ForeignPatriot wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Paeyne,
There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.
You really are defending this?
-Polaris

Anders recognizes himself at some point as the member of an underground mage movement that smuggles magi out of the tower through the lyrium tunnels. That kind of network cannot work without inside help.

I think there are two things that need strong consideration in this argument.

1.- Meredith was a crazy bat.

2.- I don't think she was annulling the circle because of what Anders did. He just gave her a politically viable excuse. Remember, this is Thedas not the Western society of Earth. For all we know, in Kirkwall its guilty until proven innocent (like the French legal system of yore).

Also, we are dealing with a group of people that the general population fears out of ignorance and would readily side with Meredith. Kind of like when a cop pulls you over and you didn't do anything wrong, even if there is no evidence to prove you did anything wrong, the Judge will almost always take the law enforcement officer's word over yours. And this is in the USA where we usually think we're innocent until proven guilty.

Lastly, she can't "partially annul" the circle. Chantry law says that when you invoke the rite, you have to invoke it fully. This is not because it wants to be genocidal towards mages, its because of the belief that the risks of allowing possibly corrupted mages to live far out weight the benefits of sparing the innocents. 

Either way, you can't just say people are "justifying genocide" by trying to side with the Templars. That's purposefully  ignoring the actual circumstances. If you want to be THAT simplistic about it then, people who beat the game are supporting a mass murderer, for that is what Hawke is in the end.

I think you make some good points here about the difference in setting bearing on the difference in legality and morality from what we would be accustomed to.  That, of course, does not preclude us from being able to discuss it from a player morality view, which is something that's complicated this discussion somewhat.  I would have liked to have been given a more fully realized picture of the normal society over the time I was in Kirkwall, we're there long enough, rather than the distorted snapshots of quest interactions that always featured deviants as enemy types.  

Something about Meredith is off in Act 2 as well - she glares at you for killing the Arishok, she snarls if you take the lead, she stone-stares you if you let Orsino make a distraction, etc. - and what Anders did brought the inevitable on that much more quickly... but it was coming irregardless.  There was going to be a conflict because Meredith wanted one to the point that she was working so hard on creating one from rumor and speculation that she ignores an obvious and potent threat in Anders.  What he does shouldn't be held against the entire Circle and it is wrong to wipe them out with the Templars.  It's also wrong to let them kill the Templars, who are going to attack with or without you, because they have to, because they are being led by a crazy person they have some divine oath of loyalty to, and then run loose potentially all over innocent townspeople who are caught in the crossfire.  Not all the templars were psychotic.  If there were extremists who were willing to break away from the Chantry and Circle and form their own communities to be away from Meredith there are bound to have been a handful of moderates who dealt with the system and treated mages like people.  Not confirmed in the game by anything directly, but logical speculation of it provides a counterpart to those innocent apprentices in the Tower.  Come to think of it, Templars have apprentices too so... what about them when we say "Ok let's subdue these templars!"

.... but we don't wipe out the Templars.  We kill Meredith.  Even when you side with the mages, you don't wipe all the templars out... you end up killing most of the mages actually when they turn demon anyway... but you run from the large group of templars still present at the end after Meredith goes down.  

So now that I've started in one place and ended in another... why the heck is that?   It does seem to color the issue one-sided in a way I hadn't seen before now. 

[TobiTobsen]

Rifneno wrote...

Actually they make several mentions of many of the townsfolk being on the side of the mages.  Probably because they see how brutal and abusive the templars of Kirkwall are.  In fact many of them might not even believe Anders did it if he wasn't around anymore to verify it.  The man's got a reputation, and not a bad one.  The man spent 7 years healing and curing poor people for free at the risk of his own neck (his clinic would surely draw the attention of the templars if they knew about it).  Hell, before Hawke can even meet him a bunch of guys confront him/her and are willing to fight to death if they feel Hawke is a threat to Anders.

Short interjection, before I have to go back to work:

No matter who you side with in the end Aveline will always mention that Donnic has to protect the civilians, because of Anders action and the RoA. In the templar ending she even explicitly states that the guard is defending the civilians against the mages.

The common folk will probably think twice about siding with the mages after that. I mean it are not the templars that are running through the city as abominations with demons without making a difference between friend or foe.

[AlexXIV]

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Paeyne,
There is not one scintilla of evidence that Anders had any collaberators (except Hawke and Co if they were duped). That means you are fnding the Circle guilty and thus condeming them all to death for sheer speculation that you know you can't prove.
You really are defending this?
-Polaris

Anders recognizes himself at some point as the member of an underground mage movement that smuggles magi out of the tower through the lyrium tunnels. That kind of network cannot work without inside help.

Well Anders mentions that the mage underground railroad is good as gone in act3. Which means the templars have already taken care of the 'rebels'. I am really unsure that the fact so many demons were around in the endgame does have anything to do with the story. Because game mechanics sadly are not really very story relevent in this game. I mean if the rest of the circle, that Meredith wants to annull does consist of mostly bloodmages or mages that support the bloodmages then it is a clear shot. Though then it does not explain why Bethany stays with them. Bethany always makes sure to stay away from blood mages or renegade mages.

I really can't help to feel that the only reason there are so many discussions about this topic is not because it is such an interesting issue, but more because the game itself is so conflicting with it's own story that people start assuming things that are not there.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[Rifneno]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Short interjection, before I have to go back to work:

No matter who you side with in the end Aveline will always mention that Donnic has to protect the civilians, because of Anders action and the RoA. In the templar ending she even explicitly states that the guard is defending the civilians against the mages.

The common folk will probably think twice about siding with the mages after that. I mean it are not the templars that are running through the city as abominations with demons without making a difference between friend or foe.

No, but anyone can clearly see it happened because the templars forced their hand.  They can also clearly see Meredith trying to usurp power of the city by blocking a new viscount.

Besides, I don't really believe there are many mages out in the city.  Circle ones anyway.  Even the First Enchanter can't leave the Gallows most of the time, it's not like the templars let them run free as birds.  Really the only reason we see so many out during that quest is the obligatory "must provide fodder for Hawke" battles.  Same reason Orsino goes harvester for no particular reason if you side with the mages.

[ForeignPatriot]

Rifneno wrote...

Actually they make several mentions of many of the townsfolk being on the side of the mages.  Probably because they see how brutal and abusive the templars of Kirkwall are.  In fact many of them might not even believe Anders did it if he wasn't around anymore to verify it.  The man's got a reputation, and not a bad one.  The man spent 7 years healing and curing poor people for free at the risk of his own neck (his clinic would surely draw the attention of the templars if they knew about it).  Hell, before Hawke can even meet him a bunch of guys confront him/her and are willing to fight to death if they feel Hawke is a threat to Anders.

You also see people saying that Meredith is "the best thing that ever happened to Kirkwall". I was referring more to the fact that in Thedas, its been established that people don't trust mages and fear them because they may become abominations. Also, Anders only has a reputation with refugees and poor people, who have no say in the city. remember, you need money or status for your opinion to count, this isn't a democracy.

We're not ignoring anything.  Meredith a lunatic and there was no good reason to call for the RoA.  If this was a Ferelden Tower type deal where the place is crawling with demons and forcibly converting mages then you'd have a valid point.  It's not.  The place only goes crazy because the templars burst in and start slaughtering anything that moves.  The Circle was no immediate danger to anyone, and likely wouldn't have been a danger period if not for the fact the templars are imprisoning them in Demon Central and abusing them in virtually every way possible.  Comparing what happens at the end of DA2 to a legitimate and sadly necessary Annulment is like comparing Columbine to the state executing a killer.

1.- This is your opinion, not a fact. You can't quantify what constitutes a "good reason" to call for the RoA. There was definitely enough evidence throughout the game to support the view that the circle and whats more, the city mages not restrained in the gallows, were not under the control of the Templar order. 

It would be a valid point that the mages were only defending themselves against the Templars if you didn't see a LOT of demons and abominations running around even BEFORE the RoA was invoked. It is the job of the Templars to protect the world from magic, especially what their society considers "corrupt" or "evil" magic such as the school of blood magic and/or demons/spirits/abominations. 

Now, I am not saying it was right but, at the end of the day, supporting one act or the other is ALWAYS a subjective issue. There is no inherently evil or good qualities to anything, only our perception.

In the world of Dragon Age, society sees demonic possession as a HUGE deal. Just because the only thing we have to compare it to is the possible annulment of the Ferelden circle, doesn't mean that those are the only circumstances where people would think annulment was justified. In Ferelden, one might argue that it was very close and, had the Warden not stopped Uldred when he did, it might have been too late.

Lastly, you can't use real world analogs because there are none. There are no groups of people in OUR world that carry with them the inherent danger that mages do. You can't even say it would be like "quarantining" someone because, in a quarantine, they may die and then that's it. If a circle of mages falls to corruption, it would mean that SEVERAL abominations and powerful maleficars would be loose upon the world and, it would not be guaranteed that the Templars would be able to stop them from killing millions.

But anyway, my main point was for: people saying that "genocide" is never justified and therefore, siding with the Templars is "wrong". And when confronted by the facts I stated above, they simply quote the dictionary definition of genocide and think that's the only argument they need.

What I was trying to say above is that its not as easy as that. The writers gave us a situation that was predetermined to get out of control, nothing you do could affect the ultimate outcome. Siding with the Templars preserves the status quo. And, its perfectly reasonable if you are role playing a character born in Thedas (who might be a devout Andastrian) to see that if you side with the mages in such a radical way, the potential for abominations being loose and therefore causing even MORE damage is greater. 

But like I said, it was not in your hands. The battle would occur regardless and this was made clear. Under these extreme circumstances, the annulment of the circle might be seen, by some, as justified. And you can't argue that these people's opinions would be "wrong" because they are, after all, subjective.

Modifié par ForeignPatriot, 16 avril 2011 - 01:30 .

[Rifneno]

ForeignPatriot wrote...

You also see people saying that Meredith is "the best thing that ever happened to Kirkwall". I was referring more to the fact that in Thedas, its been established that people don't trust mages and fear them because they may become abominations. Also, Anders only has a reputation with refugees and poor people, who have no say in the city. remember, you need money or status for your opinion to count, this isn't a democracy.

People don't trust mages because the Chantry poisons their minds as such.  Look at Keili.  That didn't happen because she accidentally burnt her hand with a fire spell, the zealots have been spreading hate for generations.

1.- This is your opinion, not a fact. You can't quantify what constitutes a "good reason" to call for the RoA. There was definitely enough evidence throughout the game to support the view that the circle and whats more, the city mages not restrained in the gallows, were not under the control of the Templar order.

Riiiight.  I'm sure someone has used the same argument for why we should've launched a volley on nuclear-armed MIRVs at the middle east.  Problem is, it turns out that killing a ton of people because you think they *might* be a danger in the future isn't exactly what any sane mind would call "a good reason."

It would be a valid point that the mages were only defending themselves against the Templars if you didn't see a LOT of demons and abominations running around even BEFORE the RoA was invoked. It is the job of the Templars to protect the world from magic, especially what their society considers "corrupt" or "evil" magic such as the school of blood magic and/or demons/spirits/abominations. 

Because Hawke represents the average day in the life of a Kirkwall citizen?  How many dragons did Hawke encounter despite them being so rare that people thought they were extinct?

You can't even say it would be like "quarantining" someone because, in a quarantine, they may die and then that's it. If a circle of mages falls to corruption, it would mean that SEVERAL abominations and powerful maleficars would be loose upon the world and, it would not be guaranteed that the Templars would be able to stop them from killing millions.

You'll have to forgive me if I roll my eyes at the notion of "millions" when the highest confirmed body count we've heard on an abomination massacre isn't even 3 digits.  Do we both get to make asinine exaggerations?  Because I'd love to be able to say that every templar rapes 83 people before 11 AM every morning.  127 by 10:30 for knight-commander or above.

But anyway, my main point was for: people saying that "genocide" is never justified and therefore, siding with the Templars is "wrong". And when confronted by the facts I stated above, they simply quote the dictionary definition of genocide and think that's the only argument they need.

It's funny, because that's exactly what the Chantry apologists always say about Anders being a terrorist.

[TJPags]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Paeyne is not claiming that mages did help Anders. He merely points out we have absolutely no way of knwing if they did, and that they might have at some point along the process.

Indeed, I don't want to speak for Paeyne, but I think this is true.  It certainly is for me.

As I pointed out earlier - Anders says he needs help finding the ingredients.  He says he needs help planting the bomb.  He blows up the Chantry even if Hawke refuses to help him.

Are we now supposed to assume that, if Hawke declines any assistance, Anders does it all on his own, with no other help?  I argue that its reasonable to assume he did, indeed, get help somewhere else.  I also argue that, given his obvious and admitted involvement with a Mage Underground consisting of Circle mages, its reasonable to assume that at least some of the assistance he got came from them.  (For all we know, he got the plans for this bomb from someone in the Circle).

Now, is this reasonable assumption enough for conviction in a criminal court?  Not in America, where guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  Might not even be enough for a verdict in a civil case, where the burden of proof is simply more likely than not.

But it's enough for me, in my mind, to accept that Circle mages helped.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If you had any information to judge that the Circle of Magi is 97% bad, that's one thing, but you don't. You have mage antagonists who mostly comprise apostates and maleficarum who have no noted connection to the Circle of Kirkwall, and saying we should judge a plethora of men, women, and children solely on the antagonists who Hawke deals with. It's like saying Hawke should judge all dwarves in Kirkwall based on the carta members he fights. Hawke never has an opportunity to meet the many denizens of the Gallows, and it isn't accurate to make any judgement on them without any information. All we know is that they're innocent of the deaths Anders caused.

We have plenty of Circle mages.  Grace.  The 3 we hunt down, 2 of whom are blood mages.  Orsino.  The ones we see in Best Served Cold.  The ones we fight during the final battle.

You're referencing an insurrection of mages and templars, and using the mages as examples that the Circle is corrupt. Grace is from the Circle of Starkhaven and Alain was a rape victim who surrenders. If all or most of the mages working with her had been from Starkhaven like Alain was, I'm not certain how that helps your argument. Either way, the antagonists who fight Hawke end up dead. I don't see how a handful of people should condemn countless men, women, and children who are imprisoned in the Gallows. We see a handful of mages who are not using blood magic or turning into abominations when Hawke sides with the mages against Meredith and the Right of Annulment.

Besides the virgin Emile who only wanted to get laid, two of the three mages - Huon and Evelina - were insane after their time in the Gallows, and Evelina was sane during her years in the Ferelden Circle. To contrast the two mages who were driven insane, we have Bethany and Ella.

As for Orsino, he's the First Enchanter, and I still don't see any information that demonstrates that the Circle of Kirkwall is corrupt. To contrast Orsino, we have Tobrius (who knew Malcolm Hawke).

TJPags wrote...

And since we have no information as to whether the random mages that attack us in the street during Act 3 are Circle or apostate, there is nothing wrong with assuming that some, at least, are Circle mages.  Saying otherwise is speculation.  And yes, saying some are Circle is speculation.  But both are equally valid.

It's just as valid to address that you're judging mages inside the Gallows by the actions of mages who are outside of the Gallows.

TJPags wrote...

Again, you comment on the "plethora" of mages sitting in the Gallows, who you seem to feel are innocent.  And again, I have to point out - first, we have no idea whether there is a "plethora" or what number there are - there could be 100, 1000, or 10. 

Because the mages and apprentices are innocent of the crime Anders committed. Meredith never even contests this when she handwaves his existance to purge the Circle of Magi.

TJPags wrote...

Second, we have no idea if they are innocent or not.  Assuming they are all innocent is speculation.  Assuming they are all evil is speculation.  Assuming there is some kind of split is speculation.

It's not speculation when Anders freely confessed to the crime.

TJPags wrote...

Now, are they innocent of what Anders did?  Probably.  I can't say for sure because we know he had contacts in the Circle.  We know he asks Hawke for help getting the ingredients and planting the bomb.  We know he blows the Chantry even if Hawke doesn't help him. 

Anders also confesses that he didn't want anyone else to have a hand in what he was doing, which is why he didn't tell Hawke what he was doing.

TJPags wrote...

But the Circle being innocent of Anders action =/= the Circle being full of innocent mages.

When I address that the Circle mages are innocent of the crime Anders committed, it's because Anders fully confessed and revealed he was responsible for the destruction of the Chantry. Furthermore, I don't see how anyone can condemn the Circle due to an absense of knowledge about the majority of the mages who are imprisoned in the Gallows.

Lob, on the highlighted point, your missing mine.  I'm not talking about them being innocent of Anders action there.  I'm talking about them being either blood mages, abominations, lunatics, or some combination of all 3.  You can't respond to this point by saying they're innocent of what Anders did.  I am arguing that 97% of them may be blood mages.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Lob, on the highlighted point, your missing mine.  I'm not talking about them being innocent of Anders action there.  I'm talking about them being either blood mages, abominations, lunatics, or some combination of all 3.  You can't respond to this point by saying they're innocent of what Anders did.  I am arguing that 97% of them may be blood mages.

I think it's a rather big stretch to come up with such a very high number, when the vast majority of mages we meet are outside the Gallows and not inside. In other words, they already escaped the tower and are apostates. There could have been hundreds inside who have nothing to do with blood magic. 

I'd agree that Kirkwall would have the largest rate of blood magic and insane lunatics (not only confined to mages), partially because of Meredith's incompetence and heavy handed methods that are counter productive. But I would not base my numbers on what the game shows us because otherwise I'd have to believe that 90% of Kirkwall's population are thugs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 avril 2011 - 02:35 .

[ForeignPatriot]

Rifneno wrote...

People don't trust mages because the Chantry poisons their minds as such.  Look at Keili.  That didn't happen because she accidentally burnt her hand with a fire spell, the zealots have been spreading hate for generations.

It doesn't matter WHY they don't trust the mages. Read my post I said it was due to ignorance but, they fact is that they don't trust them and are thus more inclined to stand against them.

Riiiight.  I'm sure someone has used the same argument for why we should've launched a volley on nuclear-armed MIRVs at the middle east.  Problem is, it turns out that killing a ton of people because you think they *might* be a danger in the future isn't exactly what any sane mind would call "a good reason."

Again read my post in its entirety, don't nip pick random bits because you CAN make an argument against it. You can't draw real life parallels to the mage's situation. There are NONE.

Because Hawke represents the average day in the life of a Kirkwall citizen?  How many dragons did Hawke encounter despite them being so rare that people thought they were extinct?

I wasn't even talking about game mechanics. Several quests show that there are blood mages and apostates all over the city, enough to make the argument the Templars don't have the situation under control, as part of the narrative, not part of the gameplay.

You'll have to forgive me if I roll my eyes at the notion of "millions" when the highest confirmed body count we've heard on an abomination massacre isn't even 3 digits.  Do we both get to make asinine exaggerations?  Because I'd love to be able to say that every templar rapes 83 people before 11 AM every morning.  127 by 10:30 for knight-commander or above.

You can roll your eyes at whatever you want but, just because you haven't seen it referenced doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Its well recorder in the lore that abominations are a potent force, if the entire circle of mages fell and were let loose, they would be free to summon more demons and kill more people. And the abomination massacre you are referring to was ONE not an army of abominations. You can claim whatever "asinine" exaggerations you want but, at the end of the day the Templar in your example is doing it because he is a bad person, not because they are inherently predisposed to rape people.

It's funny, because that's exactly what the Chantry apologists always say about Anders being a terrorist.

And because you disagree with their views, they are single minded idiots, right?

I am done with this argument since you clearly aren't reading what I am trying to say in its entirety rather than nitpicking at things I said that you could argue against. 

Bottom line is, you can;t tell anyone they are "wrong" for seeing the possibility that siding with the Templars is the "lesser evil" I'm not even saying that's my view, I usually side with the mages, but it doesn't make other people's perception of what's happening any less valid.

Likewise, I am not saying YOUR opinion is wrong, you can believe whatever you want. I only ask you understand that its a merely subjective issue and your life experience (not having been born in a fantasy world where magic is real) has an effect on how you react to the situation. Some people can put themselves in the shoes of of characters born in a different age better than others and understand their point of view, you are free to disagree because your moral or ethical view doesn't allow for that sort of thing but, don't try to demonize those who don't see it your way.

[Camenae]

Well I don't think TJPags meant literally 97%, a number he arrived at from careful calculation. Seems to me like it's just a hyperbole like when I say, "You NEVER listen to me!" and "I'm right 150% of the time!" when arguing with my boyfriend.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...

Well I don't think TJPags meant literally 97%, a number he arrived at from careful calculation. Seems to me like it's just a hyperbole like when I say, "You NEVER listen to me!" and "I'm right 150% of the time!" when arguing with my boyfriend.

97% sounds like such a random number, people usually say 99% or 90% when they want to comically exagerrate

Or maybe I am just suspicious of prime numbers.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 avril 2011 - 02:46 .