359 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Camenae wrote...

Well I don't think TJPags meant literally 97%, a number he arrived at from careful calculation. Seems to me like it's just a hyperbole like when I say, "You NEVER listen to me!" and "I'm right 150% of the time!" when arguing with my boyfriend.

Yeah I also think there were more like 150% bloodmages in the Circle.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Lob, on the highlighted point, your missing mine.  I'm not talking about them being innocent of Anders action there.  I'm talking about them being either blood mages, abominations, lunatics, or some combination of all 3.  You can't respond to this point by saying they're innocent of what Anders did.  I am arguing that 97% of them may be blood mages.

I think it's a rather big stretch to come up with such a very high number, when the vast majority of mages we meet are outside the Gallows and not inside. In other words, they already escaped the tower and are apostates. There could have been hundreds inside who have nothing to do with blood magic. 

I'd agree that Kirkwall would have the largest rate of blood magic and insane lunatics (not only confined to mages), partially because of Meredith's incompetence and heavy handed methods that are counter productive. But I would not base my numbers on what the game shows us because otherwise I'd have to believe that 90% of Kirkwall's population are thugs.

No, Camenae is right, I don't mean 97% literally.  I chose it simply because 3 good mages (Bethany, Emile, Ella) put it in my head when I was considering a percentage to throw in as a number. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea I figured it was an exaggeration, but I still interpreted it as to mean that you think that most mages in Kirkwall are blood mages. Most of the ones we see definitely are, but I am not sure I'd say they are the majority of mages.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Lob, on the highlighted point, your missing mine.  I'm not talking about them being innocent of Anders action there.  I'm talking about them being either blood mages, abominations, lunatics, or some combination of all 3.  You can't respond to this point by saying they're innocent of what Anders did.  I am arguing that 97% of them may be blood mages.

I think it's a rather big stretch to come up with such a very high number, when the vast majority of mages we meet are outside the Gallows and not inside. In other words, they already escaped the tower and are apostates. There could have been hundreds inside who have nothing to do with blood magic. 

I'd agree that Kirkwall would have the largest rate of blood magic and insane lunatics (not only confined to mages), partially because of Meredith's incompetence and heavy handed methods that are counter productive. But I would not base my numbers on what the game shows us because otherwise I'd have to believe that 90% of Kirkwall's population are thugs.

No, Camenae is right, I don't mean 97% literally.  I chose it simply because 3 good mages (Bethany, Emile, Ella) put it in my head when I was considering a percentage to throw in as a number. 

Also Orsino alone is at least 500% bloodmage.

[Rifneno]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Lob, on the highlighted point, your missing mine.  I'm not talking about them being innocent of Anders action there.  I'm talking about them being either blood mages, abominations, lunatics, or some combination of all 3.  You can't respond to this point by saying they're innocent of what Anders did.  I am arguing that 97% of them may be blood mages.

I think it's a rather big stretch to come up with such a very high number, when the vast majority of mages we meet are outside the Gallows and not inside. In other words, they already escaped the tower and are apostates. There could have been hundreds inside who have nothing to do with blood magic. 

I'd agree that Kirkwall would have the largest rate of blood magic and insane lunatics (not only confined to mages), partially because of Meredith's incompetence and heavy handed methods that are counter productive. But I would not base my numbers on what the game shows us because otherwise I'd have to believe that 90% of Kirkwall's population are thugs.

No, Camenae is right, I don't mean 97% literally.  I chose it simply because 3 good mages (Bethany, Emile, Ella) put it in my head when I was considering a percentage to throw in as a number. 

Also Orsino alone is at least 500% bloodmage.

Well of course.  How else he kill millions, no, billions, no, trillions of people!

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I figured it was an exaggeration, but I still interpreted it as to mean that you think that most mages in Kirkwall are blood mages. Most of the ones we see definitely are, but I am not sure I'd say they are the majority of mages.

Well, part of my point is that we don't see the rest of these mages.  We don't know if there are 100 other mages, 1000 other mages, 10 other mages, or any number in between.

We can speculate, of course, how many there are.  We can speculate how these other mages break down in terms of "good" or "evil".  And I'm not for one second arguing that any person's speculation is right or wrong - you, Lob, Polaris, Camenae, myself, anyone else - we are all free to create in our mind, for our game, whatever numbers we like in terms of how many other mages and how many are good.  And all are equally valid.

All I'm pointing out, or trying to point out, is that, of the mages we DO see in game, the overwhelming majority of those - minus the 3 I mentioned - are "bad".  In my head, that number is representative of all those other mages we don't see.  Which means, to me, that the overwhelming majority of those mages we don't see are not sitting quietly in their rooms in the Gallows waiting to be told what to do, but rather are meeting in dark corners to discuss the latest blood magic demon summoning ritual.

So, in my mind, the Kirkwall Circle is lost, and in need of Anullment.  And without in-game evidence to work with (and from our past Loghain discussions, you should recall how I like to have in-game evidence ) my theory is as valid as anyone else's.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
We can speculate, of course, how many there are.  We can speculate how these other mages break down in terms of "good" or "evil".  And I'm not for one second arguing that any person's speculation is right or wrong - you, Lob, Polaris, Camenae, myself, anyone else - we are all free to create in our mind, for our game, whatever numbers we like in terms of how many other mages and how many are good.  And all are equally valid.

I'd say all are equally invalid until we have indication about actual numbers, which Bioware generally doesn't bother to do.

I generally say interpretation of events, characters...etc are mostly all valid (if within reasonable limits). But when it comes to numbers (even broad claims), we need something concrete to work with and it's not in the game. 

Of course what your character believes in the game itself is a different story.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[MCPOWill]

I can't believe I am saying this but, Fable 2 (haven't played Fable III yet...) had a better awareness of your Fame?Infamy than DA2 in some regards... like how the populous responded to your hero as he/she walked the streetds of Bowerstone or Oakfield. You really got the feeling that people knew of your deeds.

In fact if DA-II had more lively city like Oblivion had with the npcs having schedules and Fables recognition of fame and deeds (well DA-II did have recognition of deeds and some reaction to fame, maybe just taken a little farther), and just have Kirkwall feel alive, then DA-2 would do so much better and would've met with much more praise with fans, at for me. Don't get me wrong DA-2 is a good game in my book, but now that I look at it, its not to the greatest that is ME2.

I wouldn't mind if Bioware returned to DA-2 structure if they worked on improving the organics and vitality of the city that the game is centered around while keeping with the calibur of character depth in DA-2 because I have to say that Anders is one of the best literary characters in all of gaming. Worthy of William Shakespeare and Tennessee Williams. 

Modifié par MCPOWill, 16 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[Benchmark]

I keep seeing people make statements to the effect that "people fear mages out of ignorance" and "the chantry makes people fear mages by voodoo brainwashing them". I don't know if you all realize this, but that is purely speculation on your part. You do not see enough of Thedas daily life to know how many events have occurred in recent memory to make an average citizen fear mages.

And all of the comments about the way that people react to Meredith and Templars in Act 3 are based solely off the Champion (her)himself. Whatever side you take most, the citizens support more. They just tell you what you want to hear.

To the topic of some of this discussion. RoA isn't just made because of what Ander's did. RoA is called when a circle has become so corrupted that you can't guarantee that it is even possible to root out and execute the Maleficars hiding in it. When the Templars have lost the ability to control it. The DaO circle actually explains what a difficult choice it is for a Knight-Commander to make.

The DA2 story took so many liberties with what the player doesn't see going on. Obviously Meredith was losing control of the circle. Obviously it was riddled with maleficars. The game didn't walk you into her office and show you every piece of evidence she had acquired over the seven years.

Hell, Ander's was spreading his Manifesto everywhere. Maybe she had been confiscating copies of it in the tower and suspected he was getting help. You don't know. The game doesn't tell you. You do know that she has witnessed blood mage after blood mage, plots, escapes, and subversions. Orsino himself is a blood mage, she may have circumstantial evidence of that. Was she really that bad that she couldn't intercept any of his "Love, O" letters?

Meredith certainly had reason to ask for RoA. She felt she had enough evidence already. The Grand Cleric was mediating a compromise solution because she felt some in the circle could be saved. Ander's made sure she couldn't continue doing so.

No Grand Cleric+ Ander's/mage removing the GC+ Meredith's increasing paranoia+ owning oversized singing tableware= Decision to call the RoA and no willingness to compromise.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'd be willing to bet, that peoples' fear of mages is legitimate. Mages are dangerous. There is no going around it. Whatever the Chantry says, the common man will always be wary of magic, and with good reason. Just look at some of the examples DA2 gives us.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd be willing to bet, that peoples' fear of mages is legitimate. Mages are dangerous. There is no going around it. Whatever the Chantry says, the common man will always be wary of magic, and with good reason. Just look at some of the examples DA2 gives us.

I think people were addressing that there are cultural differences from the anti-mage views of Andrastian societies to the mage tolerant views held by the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain. Not all cultures share the views on magic and mages like the Andrastians.

[MCPOWill]

Mages to Thedas as are the Jewish communities of the Dark Ages and the Protestants of the Reformation in Europe.

In fact DA-II conflict has some similarities to the Reformation ...although Martin Luther didn't death ray a church now did he...

[Benchmark]

MCPOWill wrote...

Mages to Thedas as are the Jewish communities of the Dark Ages and the Protestants of the Reformation in Europe.

In fact DA-II conflict has some similarities to the Reformation ...although Martin Luther didn't death ray a church now did he...

Not a very good parallel. Except maybe the idea of being heretical? Neither of those groups could death-ray a church if they got pissed. They were both productive and beneficial subpopulations whose only drawback was that they competed with the rooted populations for resources.

Mages are beneficial on some days, scary killing towers of scar tissue on bad days. Or just unreasonable and single minded glowy killing machines... pick your favorite poison.

Bottom line is that this doesn't have a good comparison, you can just reference small aspects of it with events from actual history.

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd be willing to bet, that peoples' fear of mages is legitimate. Mages are dangerous. There is no going around it. Whatever the Chantry says, the common man will always be wary of magic, and with good reason. Just look at some of the examples DA2 gives us.

I think people were addressing that there are cultural differences from the anti-mage views of Andrastian societies to the mage tolerant views held by the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain. Not all cultures share the views on magic and mages like the Andrastians.

The Chasind are ruled by their shaman.

The Dalish make their mages the guides for their tribes.

The Avvar don't make any long term alliances and live in such harsh environments they pose less threat to eachother than the elements do.

Rivaini seers are not mages, and magic is outlawed. Unless they have much nicer spirits in Rivain, how they get away with possesion is questionable.


Of the 4 you mentioned, all of them have tiny magic potentialed populations. All of them put mages on a pedestal, or are ruled by them. Might as well throw in Trevinter Imperium to the mix then.

Mages are not going to be in control of Thedas ever again. It happened once, it was bad for business. None of the groups mentioned talk about what they do when their shaman/seer/person goes bad except the Dalish. They watch their keepers closely and hunt them down once they cross the line.

Thats not too different from the circle. A nice big place to live and eat rent free. Being watched by a group that is ready to hunt you down and kill you if you cross the line.

If you could cure the Templars internal issues, they would be just like a Dalish clan. Someone needs to start a Templar internal affairs. Then start a Mage outreach program so they can help communities and feel valuable.

[IanPolaris]

Benchmark wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd be willing to bet, that peoples' fear of mages is legitimate. Mages are dangerous. There is no going around it. Whatever the Chantry says, the common man will always be wary of magic, and with good reason. Just look at some of the examples DA2 gives us.

I think people were addressing that there are cultural differences from the anti-mage views of Andrastian societies to the mage tolerant views held by the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain. Not all cultures share the views on magic and mages like the Andrastians.

The Chasind are ruled by their shaman.

Not true.  The Chasind Shamans are part of a tribe's ruling council as one (of many) chiefs similiar to many RL Native American tribes.  See the codex entry on Chasind.

The Dalish make their mages the guides for their tribes.

According to Dalish Lore, magic is the (lost) birthright of all elves.  Even so, the Hahren (storyteller) and head hunter has almost as much say as the Keeper, and it's the hunters that act as the ulimate check on the keeper.

The Avvar don't make any long term alliances and live in such harsh environments they pose less threat to eachother than the elements do.

Haven seemed relatively civilized and they were Avvar.  They were crazy Dragon Cultists (and Andrastian Heretics) to be sure, but they were a stable environmen that held that mages and non-mages were both important parts of the Community....and it was lead by Father Kogrim who emphatically was not a mage (he was a high level Reaver).

Rivaini seers are not mages, and magic is outlawed. Unless they have much nicer spirits in Rivain, how they get away with possesion is questionable.

I believe they are in fact mages.  The fact is the Rivainni haven't fallen to pieces yet in spite of what most would consider some of the most dangerous magical practices.  That's a very strong indicator that the Chantry is viewing mages with alarm for it's own gain.

Of the 4 you mentioned, all of them have tiny magic potentialed populations. All of them put mages on a pedestal, or are ruled by them. Might as well throw in Trevinter Imperium to the mix then.

Except they don't except the Dalish, and being a mage is the least important part of being a Keeper.

Mages are not going to be in control of Thedas ever again. It happened once, it was bad for business. None of the groups mentioned talk about what they do when their shaman/seer/person goes bad except the Dalish. They watch their keepers closely and hunt them down once they cross the line.

I think most mages would settle for being treated like human beings quite honestly.

Thats not too different from the circle. A nice big place to live and eat rent free. Being watched by a group that is ready to hunt you down and kill you if you cross the line.

The word you are looking for is "prison".


-Polaris

[Benchmark]

IanPolaris wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd be willing to bet, that peoples' fear of mages is legitimate. Mages are dangerous. There is no going around it. Whatever the Chantry says, the common man will always be wary of magic, and with good reason. Just look at some of the examples DA2 gives us.

I think people were addressing that there are cultural differences from the anti-mage views of Andrastian societies to the mage tolerant views held by the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain. Not all cultures share the views on magic and mages like the Andrastians.

The Chasind are ruled by their shaman.

Not true.  The Chasind Shamans are part of a tribe's ruling council as one (of many) chiefs similiar to many RL Native American tribes.  See the codex entry on Chasind.

The Dalish make their mages the guides for their tribes.

According to Dalish Lore, magic is the (lost) birthright of all elves.  Even so, the Hahren (storyteller) and head hunter has almost as much say as the Keeper, and it's the hunters that act as the ulimate check on the keeper.

The Avvar don't make any long term alliances and live in such harsh environments they pose less threat to eachother than the elements do.

Haven seemed relatively civilized and they were Avvar.  They were crazy Dragon Cultists (and Andrastian Heretics) to be sure, but they were a stable environmen that held that mages and non-mages were both important parts of the Community....and it was lead by Father Kogrim who emphatically was not a mage (he was a high level Reaver).

Rivaini seers are not mages, and magic is outlawed. Unless they have much nicer spirits in Rivain, how they get away with possesion is questionable.

I believe they are in fact mages.  The fact is the Rivainni haven't fallen to pieces yet in spite of what most would consider some of the most dangerous magical practices.  That's a very strong indicator that the Chantry is viewing mages with alarm for it's own gain.

Of the 4 you mentioned, all of them have tiny magic potentialed populations. All of them put mages on a pedestal, or are ruled by them. Might as well throw in Trevinter Imperium to the mix then.

Except they don't except the Dalish, and being a mage is the least important part of being a Keeper.

Mages are not going to be in control of Thedas ever again. It happened once, it was bad for business. None of the groups mentioned talk about what they do when their shaman/seer/person goes bad except the Dalish. They watch their keepers closely and hunt them down once they cross the line.

I think most mages would settle for being treated like human beings quite honestly.

Thats not too different from the circle. A nice big place to live and eat rent free. Being watched by a group that is ready to hunt you down and kill you if you cross the line.

The word you are looking for is "prison".


-Polaris

Ok in order

"They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars."
Chasind codex entry.

"A Keeper is a leader of Dalish elves, both in the spiritual sense, as well as the literal."
Wiki source (poor I know)

"Lowlanders often forget that there is no such thing as a permanent alliance in the Frostbacks."
Avvar codex entry.

"I believe they are in fact mages.  The fact is the Rivainni haven't
fallen to pieces yet in spite of what most would consider some of the
most dangerous magical practices.  That's a very strong indicator that
the Chantry is viewing mages with alarm for it's own gain."

Bolded the pertinent section so you recognize everything after is supposition.

"The Keepers are the Dalish mages, though each clan will seldom or never
have more than two fully trained mages. These mages are the Keeper and
the Keeper's apprentice."
Wiki source again(still poor, but not going to scan in game convo text)

Mages are treated as human. Humans are treated poorly for many reasons other than being able to blow up a house in a fit of pique. See casteless, alienage elves, elven half breeds, Fereldans in Darktown, slaves in Trevinter, and etc. Any of those groups would probably trade a lot for a Circle to live in and not be starving to death.

"Prison" works for me. I am willing to accept that necessity and fairness do not always travel hand in hand. Especially in medieval or dark age cultures. If you want to, research actual prisons in our medieval history. Then research average living conditions. Compare that to the Circles and tell me which is closer.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

I keep seeing people make statements to the effect that "people fear mages out of ignorance" and "the chantry makes people fear mages by voodoo brainwashing them". I don't know if you all realize this, but that is purely speculation on your part. You do not see enough of Thedas daily life to know how many events have occurred in recent memory to make an average citizen fear mages.

It's not "purely speculation."  At one point there's a dialogue option to ask Anders why he's so dedicated to this cause.  He talks about how the Chantry teaches that magic is a curse, a sign of the Maker's hatred and that despite all the talk of demons, suicide is the most common death he saw in the Circle.  Looking back at some things in DAO I can see quite a few things that suggest this is in fact true.  The most glaring being Keili, a mage in the Circle that you can find praying in the prologue for the Maker to remove her "curse" and forgive her.  Later on, she supports the Right of Annulment because she's been so brainwashed by the Chantry.  But there's plenty of others.  The priestess (I forget her rank) in Redcliffe who's surprised that a mage is willing to help with the whole zombie thing, followed almost immediately by Murdock's "Great, now we have magic to deal with too."  Arguably even Bann Teagan looks down on mages.  "It's so hard to think of the boy as a mage of all things..."

I'm sure the pro-chantry types will argue that it's a lie because of Anders.  if Anders said the sun was hot, they'd argue it's made of ice cream.  But we have a character telling us this and some degree of supporting evidence.  It is not "purely speculation."

The DA2 story took so many liberties with what the player doesn't see going on. Obviously Meredith was losing control of the circle. Obviously it was riddled with maleficars. The game didn't walk you into her office and show you every piece of evidence she had acquired over the seven years.

Are you serious?  The game does show us she's completely paranoid to the point of possibly being delusional.  When Cullen doesn't want to turn on Hawke (because for some reason Cullen loves Hawke long time, I donno, don't ask me) she goes off that he's being controlled by blood magic.  Then that all the other templars are, apparently believing she's the only templar left not being blood controlled.

We know from Ser Alrik's letter than Meredith actively opposed the Tranquil Solution which many templars would argue is a gentler form of the RoA in Act II.  Act II is also where she gets the idol, and as soon as we get to Act III where the idol has had enough time to drive her mad, then we see her trying to wipe out the Circle.  Do you really think it's just coincedence that the Circle went out of control at the same time she was exposed to the evil of the lyrium idol?

[Benchmark]

Rifneno wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

I keep seeing people make statements to the effect that "people fear mages out of ignorance" and "the chantry makes people fear mages by voodoo brainwashing them". I don't know if you all realize this, but that is purely speculation on your part. You do not see enough of Thedas daily life to know how many events have occurred in recent memory to make an average citizen fear mages.

It's not "purely speculation."  At one point there's a dialogue option to ask Anders why he's so dedicated to this cause.  He talks about how the Chantry teaches that magic is a curse, a sign of the Maker's hatred and that despite all the talk of demons, suicide is the most common death he saw in the Circle.  Looking back at some things in DAO I can see quite a few things that suggest this is in fact true.  The most glaring being Keili, a mage in the Circle that you can find praying in the prologue for the Maker to remove her "curse" and forgive her.  Later on, she supports the Right of Annulment because she's been so brainwashed by the Chantry.  But there's plenty of others.  The priestess (I forget her rank) in Redcliffe who's surprised that a mage is willing to help with the whole zombie thing, followed almost immediately by Murdock's "Great, now we have magic to deal with too."  Arguably even Bann Teagan looks down on mages.  "It's so hard to think of the boy as a mage of all things..."

I'm sure the pro-chantry types will argue that it's a lie because of Anders.  if Anders said the sun was hot, they'd argue it's made of ice cream.  But we have a character telling us this and some degree of supporting evidence.  It is not "purely speculation."

The DA2 story took so many liberties with what the player doesn't see going on. Obviously Meredith was losing control of the circle. Obviously it was riddled with maleficars. The game didn't walk you into her office and show you every piece of evidence she had acquired over the seven years.

Are you serious?  The game does show us she's completely paranoid to the point of possibly being delusional.  When Cullen doesn't want to turn on Hawke (because for some reason Cullen loves Hawke long time, I donno, don't ask me) she goes off that he's being controlled by blood magic.  Then that all the other templars are, apparently believing she's the only templar left not being blood controlled.

We know from Ser Alrik's letter than Meredith actively opposed the Tranquil Solution which many templars would argue is a gentler form of the RoA in Act II.  Act II is also where she gets the idol, and as soon as we get to Act III where the idol has had enough time to drive her mad, then we see her trying to wipe out the Circle.  Do you really think it's just coincedence that the Circle went out of control at the same time she was exposed to the evil of the lyrium idol?

None of what you said detracted from the truth of my statements.

Showing example of people that believed wholeheartedly in the Chant, doesn't mean that other commoners haven't seen or been in contact with mages causing devestation.

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Where is it said Haven was an Avvarian community? To my knowledge they were an isolated community, but still Fereldan.

While we are at it: I'd also like to know where it is stated that the Chasind Shamans form a ruling council with other chiefs, cause the codex specifically says that the Chasind is ruled by shamans.
And where is it stated that magic isn't feared in Rivain?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

None of what you said detracted from the truth of my statements.

Showing example of people that believed wholeheartedly in the Chant, doesn't mean that other commoners haven't seen or been in contact with mages causing devestation.

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

And you tell us that our beliefs are based "purely on speculation?  

[bleetman]

Benchmark wrote...

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

I'm assuming the point is that she started seeing blood magic and corruption everywhere, regardless of whether it was grounded in reality, and that's an impression heavily repeated throughout the course of act three. She operates with a 'guilty until proven innocent' mentality when it comes to mages and blood magic, and in her eyes, no mage is ever truely innocent.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[Benchmark]

Rifneno wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

None of what you said detracted from the truth of my statements.

Showing example of people that believed wholeheartedly in the Chant, doesn't mean that other commoners haven't seen or been in contact with mages causing devestation.

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

And you tell us that our beliefs are based "purely on speculation?  

Yes they are.

I already stated that the game fails at letting you see most of what is happening in the world. Therefore you have to fill in a lot of gaps. You are choosing to fill them in your way, but that isn't proof.

I don't care about proof, I am not trying to prove anything to you. I am showing that there is plenty of room for interpretation, and you should accept that and understand that a different viewpoint exists. And that it is equally valid and feasible as your own.

[Benchmark]

bleetman wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

I'm assuming the point is that she started seeing blood magic and corruption everywhere, regardless of whether it was grounded in reality, and that's an impression heavily repeated throughout the course of act three. She operates with a 'guilty until proven innocent' mentality when it comes to mages and blood magic, and in her eyes, no mage is ever truely innocent.

Thats very true. She is very reactionary, and probably was overstating her case. Which is why the GC was resisting her and looking for a better way. But she certainly had evidence of blood magic from out of the circle.

She knows about your mother and she knows who did it. She sends you out to hunt escapees, and you do report to her that two of them were blood mages. You kill off a group of Circle mages using blood magic which Cullen thanks you for in "Best Served Cold". For a prison, the Mages in the Gallows certainly come and go as they please. She almost certainly has to have information on them. Someone that paranoid would be monitoring everything.

To say she had no evidence that mages in the circle were corrupted is incorrect. It is possible to say she didn't have enough, in your opinion, or that she had better options than RoA. The Grand Cleric would agree with you, but she is an ash pile.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think people were addressing that there are cultural differences from the anti-mage views of Andrastian societies to the mage tolerant views held by the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain. Not all cultures share the views on magic and mages like the Andrastians.

The Chasind are ruled by their shaman.

Is this a rebuttal against my comments that the Chasind don't share the anti-mage views of Andrastians? I don't see the difference between electing a mage to be their shaman and the Warden choosing between two nobles as the new ruler of Ferelden.

Benchmark wrote...

The Dalish make their mages the guides for their tribes.

Again, is this a rebuttal against the fact that other cultures don't share the anti-mage views of the Andrastians?

Benchmark wrote...

The Avvar don't make any long term alliances and live in such harsh environments they pose less threat to eachother than the elements do.

They are lead by Shamans as well, and don't share the Andrastian view on mages.

Benchmark wrote...

Rivaini seers are not mages, and magic is outlawed. Unless they have much nicer spirits in Rivain, how they get away with possesion is questionable.

Not according to the codex on Rivain:

"The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."

Clearly, the seers are mages.

Benchmark wrote...

Of the 4 you mentioned, all of them have tiny magic potentialed populations. All of them put mages on a pedestal, or are ruled by them. Might as well throw in Trevinter Imperium to the mix then.

None of those societies have slavery or oppress mages and non-mages alike into servitude like the Imperium does. Having mages in positions of authority is no different than having "nobility" in positions of authority on the merit of royal blood alone.

Benchmark wrote...

Mages are not going to be in control of Thedas ever again. It happened once, it was bad for business.

You mean the elven mages of Arlathan, or the nobility that ruled the Dales?

Benchmark wrote...

None of the groups mentioned talk about what they do when their shaman/seer/person goes bad except the Dalish. They watch their keepers closely and hunt them down once they cross the line.

Again, that doesn't really change the fact that they don't share the same views on mages that the Andrastians do.

Benchmark wrote...

Thats not too different from the circle. A nice big place to live and eat rent free. Being watched by a group that is ready to hunt you down and kill you if you cross the line.

A prison where you have no basic rights and can't contest it when they force you to go through the Rite of Tranquility.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 16 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Rifneno]

Benchmark wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

None of what you said detracted from the truth of my statements.

Showing example of people that believed wholeheartedly in the Chant, doesn't mean that other commoners haven't seen or been in contact with mages causing devestation.

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

And you tell us that our beliefs are based "purely on speculation?  

Yes they are.

I already stated that the game fails at letting you see most of what is happening in the world. Therefore you have to fill in a lot of gaps. You are choosing to fill them in your way, but that isn't proof.

I don't care about proof, I am not trying to prove anything to you. I am showing that there is plenty of room for interpretation, and you should accept that and understand that a different viewpoint exists. And that it is equally valid and feasible as your own.

No.  You claim our conclusions are "purely" speculation, meaning there's no indication of it in-game.  There very clearly is.