359 réponses à ce sujet

[Aynslie]

The biggest problem is the separation between combat and gameplay and the story. In combat Hawke is incredibly powerful, but we are made to believe that blood mages, abominations and demons are so powerful that, in the case of an abomination it takes so many templars to take one down who has killed 70 people. And yet Hawke takes out abominations and demons along with a few blood mage apostates every other weekend. We are also told how difficult it is to resist demons and yet Hawke seems to have no problem doing so.

I think Hawke being so badass has alot to do with Varric's story telling and embellishments. Hawke is made to seem larger than life and because of this, it just doesn't make much since with a mage ending and Orisino goes all harvester out of desperation, because lets face it Hawke....as we are lead to believe about Hawke, could take that whole Templar army alone.

So that is where the problem lies, imo. The combat/game play is not merged well with the story telling, because of the way they have Varric making Hawke out to be so great and badass. When in reality IMO my Warden would mop the Gallows with Hawke.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Showing example of people that believed wholeheartedly in the Chant, doesn't mean that other commoners haven't seen or been in contact with mages causing devestation.

It's being addressed that Andrastians see mages as "cursed," which is a term used frequently in the Magi Origin and even by Knight-Commander Meredith when she talks about mages with distain. The distinction between the Andrastian view on mages and other cultures appears to be religious.

It's part of the reason why some people take issue with the Chantry controlled Circles, especially when we hear Cullen say, "Mages are weapons. They aren't people like you and me."

Benchmark wrote...

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

Given that Hawke doesn't have evidence that the Circle is corrupt or dominated by blood magic, it's 100% speculation to assume either way whether Meredith is correct or incorrect when the mage antagonists we encounter are outside of the Gallows.

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think people were addressing that there are cultural differences from the anti-mage views of Andrastian societies to the mage tolerant views held by the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, and the kingdom of Rivain. Not all cultures share the views on magic and mages like the Andrastians.

The Chasind are ruled by their shaman.

Is this a rebuttal against my comments that the Chasind don't share the anti-mage views of Andrastians? I don't see the difference between electing a mage to be their shaman and the Warden choosing between two nobles as the new ruler of Ferelden.

Benchmark wrote...

The Dalish make their mages the guides for their tribes.

Again, is this a rebuttal against the fact that other cultures don't share the anti-mage views of the Andrastians?

Benchmark wrote...

The Avvar don't make any long term alliances and live in such harsh environments they pose less threat to eachother than the elements do.

They are lead by Shamans as well, and don't share the Andrastian view on mages.

Benchmark wrote...

Rivaini seers are not mages, and magic is outlawed. Unless they have much nicer spirits in Rivain, how they get away with possesion is questionable.

Not according to the codex on Rivain:

"The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to become possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."

Clearly, the seers are mages.

Benchmark wrote...

Of the 4 you mentioned, all of them have tiny magic potentialed populations. All of them put mages on a pedestal, or are ruled by them. Might as well throw in Trevinter Imperium to the mix then.

None of those societies have slavery or oppress mages and non-mages alike into servitude like the Imperium does. Having mages in positions of authority is no different than having "nobility" in positions of authority on the merit of royal blood alone.

Benchmark wrote...

Mages are not going to be in control of Thedas ever again. It happened once, it was bad for business.

You mean the elven mages of Arlathan, or the nobility that ruled the Dales?

Benchmark wrote...

None of the groups mentioned talk about what they do when their shaman/seer/person goes bad except the Dalish. They watch their keepers closely and hunt them down once they cross the line.

Again, that doesn't really change the fact that they don't share the same views on mages that the Andrastians do.

Benchmark wrote...

Thats not too different from the circle. A nice big place to live and eat rent free. Being watched by a group that is ready to hunt you down and kill you if you cross the line.

A prison where you have no basic rights and can't contest it when they force you to go through the Rite of Tranquility.

None of my post was disputing that other cultures share different views on magic. It was actually laying out why the different views are diametrically opposed to the ideals of Thedas. All of them place mages in places of authority. Thedas won't do that.

The best thing in your post was paralleling raising mages to a position of authority with raising royalty to a position of authority based upon accident of birth. You are completely correct and I agree with you. Thre is nothing wrong with that system if it is the one that is in place and if a society is built around it with proper checks and balances ie the Dalish. It's just as likely to get a stupid mage as it is to get a stupid noble. Sometimes you get both. Hi Delauncet!

Thedas isn't that system though, and for some reason it has a huge mage population. Probably due to just overpopulation of everyone.

I can agree that the seers are mages from your evidence, though the codex on Rivain states that using magic is outlawed. So... funny place that Rivain.

And by mages in power I was meaning the Tevinter Imperium before Andraste.

Nothing else seems to be a major disagreement between our statements. I agree that other places see mages differently, I just was making a clarification that the different cultures are so vastly different that they can't be compared. Having 1-2 mages surrounded by a band of 20 skilled hunters, all living a nomadic communal lifestyle- well, it's just really too different to make the comparison. It may be better, but it is very different.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 10:35 .

[Benchmark]

Aynslie wrote...

The biggest problem is the separation between combat and gameplay and the story. In combat Hawke is incredibly powerful, but we are made to believe that blood mages, abominations and demons are so powerful that, in the case of an abomination it takes so many templars to take one down who has killed 70 people. And yet Hawke takes out abominations and demons along with a few blood mage apostates every other weekend. We are also told how difficult it is to resist demons and yet Hawke seems to have no problem doing so.

I think Hawke being so badass has alot to do with Varric's story telling and embellishments. Hawke is made to seem larger than life and because of this, it just doesn't make much since with a mage ending and Orisino goes all harvester out of desperation, because lets face it Hawke....as we are lead to believe about Hawke, could take that whole Templar army alone.

So that is where the problem lies, imo. The combat/game play is not merged well with the story telling, because of the way they have Varric making Hawke out to be so great and badass. When in reality IMO my Warden would mop the Gallows with Hawke.

I think this is completely correct. The developers talk about how they weren't able to make magic seem as dangerous as they intended it to be. This is why, you can't be too scared of a dozen abominations and rage demons when Hawke can walk in and cough at them.

I can't decide if they are as dangerous as they are supposed to be. If magic was the equivalent of owning a gun, it wouldnt be a problem. Everyone should learn a little magic then.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 10:40 .

[uanime5]

Benchmark wrote...

MCPOWill wrote...

Mages to Thedas as are the Jewish communities of the Dark Ages and the Protestants of the Reformation in Europe.

In fact DA-II conflict has some similarities to the Reformation ...although Martin Luther didn't death ray a church now did he...

Not a very good parallel. Except maybe the idea of being heretical? Neither of those groups could death-ray a church if they got pissed. They were both productive and beneficial subpopulations whose only drawback was that they competed with the rooted populations for resources.

Mages are beneficial on some days, scary killing towers of scar tissue on bad days. Or just unreasonable and single minded glowy killing machines... pick your favorite poison.

Bottom line is that this doesn't have a good comparison, you can just reference small aspects of it with events from actual history.

A better compairson would be that mages are like mercenaries. Back when the majority of armies were made up of levies and the only trained soldiers were the nobility who could afford the training, weapons, and armour mercenaries were an effective way to get a large number well trained and equiped soldiers. For example the Italian city states relied heavily on mercenaries to defend them from their enemies. The only downside was that once their contracts expired mercenaries tended to plunder the country that hired them (Machiavelli recommened not using mercenaries because of this). Mercenaries occationally defeated armies sent to stop them plundering because they were so much better trained than the country's army.

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Showing example of people that believed wholeheartedly in the Chant, doesn't mean that other commoners haven't seen or been in contact with mages causing devestation.

It's being addressed that Andrastians see mages as "cursed," which is a term used frequently in the Magi Origin and even by Knight-Commander Meredith when she talks about mages with distain. The distinction between the Andrastian view on mages and other cultures appears to be religious.

It's part of the reason why some people take issue with the Chantry controlled Circles, especially when we hear Cullen say, "Mages are weapons. They aren't people like you and me."

Benchmark wrote...

Stating that Meredith was paranoid doesn't mean she didn't have evidence of bood magic being worked in the circle and of her losing control of it.

Given that Hawke doesn't have evidence that the Circle is corrupt or dominated by blood magic, it's 100% speculation to assume either way whether Meredith is correct or incorrect when the mage antagonists we encounter are outside of the Gallows.

It is certainly true that  Andrastans see mages as cursed, that isn't the point of my statement. The point of my statement is that just because it has been built into their religious doctrine, does not mean that it wasn't done so with reason. And it doesn't mean that reinforcement of that belief doesn't come from mage created incidents ie Evelina's adopted kids being scared witless of her.

I think Hawke and Meredith do have evidence that the circle has been corrupted. I am playing Act 3 again, and it seems every mission gives more evidence that circle mages are using blood magic in large numbers. (Why are there so many of them? Is being a mage like being born with an inny or something?)

Whether they have enough evidence is really up to your discretion and your opinion of Meredith's competence in monitoring the mages that she is supposed to have locked in a "prison". As I mentioned in a later post, the Grand Cleric doesn't think she has enough- but the GC also doesnt have enough HPs to complain right now.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 11:13 .

[Benchmark]

uanime5 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

MCPOWill wrote...

Mages to Thedas as are the Jewish communities of the Dark Ages and the Protestants of the Reformation in Europe.

In fact DA-II conflict has some similarities to the Reformation ...although Martin Luther didn't death ray a church now did he...

Not a very good parallel. Except maybe the idea of being heretical? Neither of those groups could death-ray a church if they got pissed. They were both productive and beneficial subpopulations whose only drawback was that they competed with the rooted populations for resources.

Mages are beneficial on some days, scary killing towers of scar tissue on bad days. Or just unreasonable and single minded glowy killing machines... pick your favorite poison.

Bottom line is that this doesn't have a good comparison, you can just reference small aspects of it with events from actual history.

A better compairson would be that mages are like mercenaries. Back when the majority of armies were made up of levies and the only trained soldiers were the nobility who could afford the training, weapons, and armour mercenaries were an effective way to get a large number well trained and equiped soldiers. For example the Italian city states relied heavily on mercenaries to defend them from their enemies. The only downside was that once their contracts expired mercenaries tended to plunder the country that hired them (Machiavelli recommened not using mercenaries because of this). Mercenaries occationally defeated armies sent to stop them plundering because they were so much better trained than the country's army.

That is a better one. Not perfect but definitely closer. Rome did the same thing with the Goths and got themselves pummeled for it.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

I think Hawke and Meredith do have evidence that the circle has been corrupted. I am playing Act 3 again, and it seems every mission gives more evidence that circle mages are using blood magic in large numbers. (Why are there so many of them? Is being a mage like being born with an inny or something?)

We never encounter the mages living in the Gallows except for a select few who are in the courtyard. We never encounter the majority or most of the mages who are residing in the Circle of Magi. We have no information to make any estimation on who is accurate or not about whether many or most of the mages in the Circle are even using blood magic or not.

Benchmark wrote...

Whether they have enough evidence is really up to your discretion and your opinion of Meredith's competence in monitoring the mages that she is supposed to have locked in a "prison". As I mentioned in a later post, the Grand Cleric doesn't think she has enough- but the GC also doesnt have enough HPs to complain right now.

Grand Cleric Elthina does nothing about Knight-Commander Meredith, that's the problem.

[Wulfram]

It's worth noting that for all the talk of magic as a curse, the Chant of Light itself calls it a gift

[uanime5]

Benchmark wrote...

I think this is completely correct. The developers talk about how they weren't able to make magic seem as dangerous as they intended it to be. This is why, you can't be too scared of a dozen abominations and rage demons when Hawke can walk in and cough at them.

I can't decide if they are as dangerous as they are supposed to be. If magic was the equivalent of owning a gun, it wouldnt be a problem. Everyone should learn a little magic then.

I think the problem was that in DAO they could use Darkspawn as the recurring enemy and have demons when they were relevent to the quest, such as the problems in the Circle. In DA2 demons are everywhere, especially desire and pride demons who were very rare outside the fade in DAO. Though sloth and hunger demons are still exceptionally rare.

[Benchmark]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

I think Hawke and Meredith do have evidence that the circle has been corrupted. I am playing Act 3 again, and it seems every mission gives more evidence that circle mages are using blood magic in large numbers. (Why are there so many of them? Is being a mage like being born with an inny or something?)

We never encounter the mages living in the Gallows except for a select few who are in the courtyard. We never encounter the majority or most of the mages who are residing in the Circle of Magi. We have no information to make any estimation on who is accurate or not about whether many or most of the mages in the Circle are even using blood magic or not.

Benchmark wrote...

Whether they have enough evidence is really up to your discretion and your opinion of Meredith's competence in monitoring the mages that she is supposed to have locked in a "prison". As I mentioned in a later post, the Grand Cleric doesn't think she has enough- but the GC also doesnt have enough HPs to complain right now.

Grand Cleric Elthina does nothing about Knight-Commander Meredith, that's the problem.

Actually I just fought  5-6 mages labeled as "Circle Mages" that raised skeletons from the dead.
In one scene Hawke even asks "Who raised those corpses?".

The GC does a lot, she is a balance of power. I actually love that character because she tries to honestly seperate church/state, spiritual/military, and righteousness/fairness. Most of our own historical religeous leaders would have become despots and tyrants in her situation. Oh wait, most of them did.

Modifié par Benchmark, 16 avril 2011 - 11:04 .

[Benchmark]

Wulfram wrote...

It's worth noting that for all the talk of magic as a curse, the Chant of Light itself calls it a gift

Oh ho ho. Gimme a quote. If true, this opens up more possibility for a moderate path that reconciles the two groups. Just needs a little more common sense and a Templar Internal Affairs. TIA division.

[sphinxess]

Benchmark wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's worth noting that for all the talk of magic as a curse, the Chant of Light itself calls it a gift

Oh ho ho. Gimme a quote. If true, this opens up more possibility for a moderate path that reconciles the two groups. Just needs a little more common sense and a Templar Internal Affairs. TIA division.

The TIA always existed <Seekers> - they just were on a extended vacation the entire 10 years Hawke was in Kirkwall. Anyway even if it reconciled the groups the next Divine could change the chant right back again - look at how the Elven parts were tossed when the Divine decided on a exalted march against them.

[Benchmark]

sphinxess wrote...

Benchmark wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's worth noting that for all the talk of magic as a curse, the Chant of Light itself calls it a gift

Oh ho ho. Gimme a quote. If true, this opens up more possibility for a moderate path that reconciles the two groups. Just needs a little more common sense and a Templar Internal Affairs. TIA division.

The TIA always existed <Seekers> - they just were on a extended vacation the entire 10 years Hawke was in Kirkwall. Anyway even if it reconciled the groups the next Divine could change the chant right back again - look at how the Elven parts were tossed when the Divine decided on a exalted march against them.

I didn't realize that is what the Seekers were...
Could make things interesting, an internal reform and reinterpretation of the Chant is about the only chance I see for this to end without everyone being slim pickings for the Tevniter or Qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Benchmark wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's worth noting that for all the talk of magic as a curse, the Chant of Light itself calls it a gift

Oh ho ho. Gimme a quote. If true, this opens up more possibility for a moderate path that reconciles the two groups. Just needs a little more common sense and a Templar Internal Affairs. TIA division.

The Andrastians themselves believe magic to be a gift, they also consider it a curse though. And they are right, magic is both a gift and a curse.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Actually I just fought  5-6 mages labeled as "Circle Mages" that raised skeletons from the dead.
In one scene Hawke even asks "Who raised those corpses?".

I remember encountering the Starkhaven mages, too, in "Act of Mercy." I wish there was something that could be done to save Ser Thrask from his fate in "Best Served Cold."

Benchmark wrote...

The GC does a lot, she is a balance of power. I actually love that character because she tries to honestly seperate church/state, spiritual/military, and righteousness/fairness. Most of our own historical religeous leaders would have become despots and tyrants in her situation. Oh wait, most of them did.

Instead, Grand Cleric Elthina does nothing to stop the abuses of power that are happening as a result of Meredith placing herself as the dictator of Kirkwall.

Benchmark wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's worth noting that for all the talk of magic as a curse, the Chant of Light itself calls it a gift

Oh ho ho. Gimme a quote. If true, this opens up more possibility for a moderate path that reconciles the two groups. Just needs a little more common sense and a Templar Internal Affairs. TIA division.

It's what Knight-Commander Greagoir says in the Magi Origin to the mage protagonist who becomes the Warden, but we repeatedly hear Andrastians refer to mages as cursed; it's the reason why Bethany has such a hard time being an apostate and an Andrastian.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Instead, Grand Cleric Elthina does nothing to stop the abuses of power that are happening as a result of Meredith placing herself as the dictator of Kirkwall.

What could she do? I don't think the Grand Cleric is in a position to order the Knight-Commander around, other than her right to veto the RoA.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Instead, Grand Cleric Elthina does nothing to stop the abuses of power that are happening as a result of Meredith placing herself as the dictator of Kirkwall.

What could she do? I don't think the Grand Cleric is in a position to order the Knight-Commander around, other than her right to veto the RoA.

Grand Cleric Elthina is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, and her direct superior is the Divine Justina V of Orlais. Elthina has authority, and does nothing with it.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Instead, Grand Cleric Elthina does nothing to stop the abuses of power that are happening as a result of Meredith placing herself as the dictator of Kirkwall.

What could she do? I don't think the Grand Cleric is in a position to order the Knight-Commander around, other than her right to veto the RoA.

Elthina is (was) the supreme religious authoriy in Kirkwall. Her word is that of the Divine herself unless the Divine specifically says otherwise.  Knight Commanders are directly and explicitly under the control and authority of the Chantry and specifically the Grand Cleric.  That does mean that if Elthina wanted Meridith gone, then Meredith would be gone.  The Divine (and Knight Vigilant) in Val Royeaux may have harsh words afterwards (but I don't think they would have in this case since Meridith was clearly flouting not only Chantry law but also abrogating political power that rightfully belongs to the secular govt, i.e. the nobles) and the Chantry after the Fereldan revolutionary debacle (that almost got the Chantry kicked out of Fereldan) needs that like a hole in the head.

So yes, it's perfectly fair and just to blame Elthina for the Chantry's lack of action against Meredith especially since we KNOW in Act III that she is in close contact with Justina and her Seekers (which are supposed to control such abuses).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Grand Cleric Elthina is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, and her direct superior is the Divine Justina V of Orlais. Elthina has authority, and does nothing with it.

What authority does she have over the templars? As I said, we know she can veto the RoA and she can discuss her issues with Meredith. If Meredith will not listen, what can Elthina do about that? She can appeal to the Divine and that's it.

Meredith and her templars are part of the military branch of the chantry, Elthina is part of the clergical branch. 

Edit: I don't want to state this as facts. These were just my assumptions and it's possible I got it all wrong and missed out on the codex entries that clarify the chain of command.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 avril 2011 - 05:58 .

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elthina is (was) the supreme religious authoriy in Kirkwall. Her word is that of the Divine herself unless the Divine specifically says otherwise.  Knight Commanders are directly and explicitly under the control and authority of the Chantry and specifically the Grand Cleric. That does mean that if Elthina wanted Meridith gone, then Meredith would be gone. 

My understanding is that Polaris is correct in this.  The Templars are the military wing of the Chantry and their authority extends directly from the Chantry.  A very good reason why Meredith tried to keep Elthina in the dark as much as possible in the final act.

IanPolaris wrote...

The Divine (and Knight Vigilant) in Val Royeaux may have harsh words afterwards (but I don't think they would have in this case since Meridith was clearly flouting not only Chantry law but also abrogating political power that rightfully belongs to the secular govt, i.e. the nobles) and the Chantry after the Fereldan revolutionary debacle (that almost got the Chantry kicked out of Fereldan) needs that like a hole in the head.

You will have to state which laws Meredith flouted.  Gaider has already stated that Meredith acted within her authority (something I know you disagree with but in this case Gaider wins).  Aveline, the law and order junkie of DA2, certainly never objected to her authority over the city and even King Alistair seemed to defer to her authority.  They seemed to think her running the city in the absence of a Viscount was legal even if you do not.

IanPolaris wrote...

So yes, it's perfectly fair and just to blame Elthina for the Chantry's lack of action against Meredith especially since we KNOW in Act III that she is in close contact with Justina and her Seekers (which are supposed to control such abuses).

-Polaris

The Chantry empowers the Templars so I agree they are at least equally responsible for their acts.  I consider Elthina negligent in her duties based on what I saw within the game.  That is, of course, an opinion.

[IanPolaris]

Paeyne,

Just for starts, Templars are not permitted to tranquil harrowed mages. That's been against Chantry Law for centures...yet Elthina does nothing about it. KC Meredith may not have done it, but she almost had to have known about and permitted it. That's just one example.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Actually Aveline does bitterly object to KC Meredith's high handedness and the high-handedness of the Templars in general and so does the Seneschal, but Guard Capt Aveline answers to the Seneschal (at least until a new Viscount is apointed) and Bran has told Aveline in no uncertain terms to cooperate.  KC Meredith may be the de-facto leader of Kirkwall (and this is widely aknowledged) but she is assuming authority that as a Templar Official legally isn't hers.  It belongs to the local nobility (a point you can emphasize at the start of Act III).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 avril 2011 - 08:08 .

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Paeyne,

Just for starts, Templars are not permitted to tranquil harrowed mages. That's been against Chantry Law for centures...yet Elthina does nothing about it. KC Meredith may not have done it, but she almost had to have known about and permitted it. That's just one example.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Actually Aveline does bitterly object to KC Meredith's high handedness and the high-handedness of the Templars in general and so does the Seneschal, but Guard Capt Aveline answers to the Seneschal (at least until a new Viscount is apointed) and Bran has told Aveline in no uncertain terms to cooperate.  KC Meredith may be the de-facto leader of Kirkwall (and this is widely aknowledged) but she is assuming authority that as a Templar Official legally isn't hers.  It belongs to the local nobility (a point you can emphasize at the start of Act III).

I would agree that Meredith must have knowin what her Templars were doing.  However any police officer will tell you that there is a difference between flouting the law and failing to enforce the law.

As far as Aveline goes.  Just because your boss is a jerk doesn't make her any less your boss.  With the Viscount dead there are only two reasonable people that the secular power can fall to until a succesor can be declared.  One is Aveline and the other is Meredith.  It didn't fall to Aveline (probably because she was Fereldan) so it fell to Meredith.  In most situations the line of succession goes farther than two.  Perhaps if the nobles had managed to get their act together in three years they could have petitioned Elthina so she could shorten Meredith's leash.

I will be the first to say Elthina was incompetent but there was plenty of that going around.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Paeyne wrote...
I would agree that Meredith must have knowin what her Templars were doing.  However any police officer will tell you that there is a difference between flouting the law and failing to enforce the law.
[/quote]

Sure, and in this case Meredith was flouting it.  When outsiders can simply look at new Tranquil and be able to tell that there are too many new tranquil and many were harrowed mages, and when you tell Meredith's number two man (Knight Captain Cullen) and nothing is done....not even an investigation, then you are flouting the law.  By her lack of action against clear violations, Meridith is in effect declaring open season on the mages in her care.

It's one thing to turn a blind eye, but it's quite another to openly ignore an obvious violation of the law under your watch.  That's flouting.

[quote]
As far as Aveline goes.  Just because your boss is a jerk doesn't make her any less your boss.  With the Viscount dead there are only two reasonable people that the secular power can fall to until a succesor can be declared.  One is Aveline and the other is Meredith.  It didn't fall to Aveline (probably because she was Fereldan) so it fell to Meredith.  In most situations the line of succession goes farther than two.  Perhaps if the nobles had managed to get their act together in three years they could have petitioned Elthina so she could shorten Meredith's leash.

I will be the first to say Elthina was incompetent but there was plenty of that going around.
[/quote]

There is one reason and one reason only why Aveline didn't get military command of Kirkwall.  The Templars outnumber the City Guard by at least 3 to 1 (and that's probably being generous to the guard) and KC Meredith has already proven that she is willing to ignore secular authority to get her way (which is why Viscount Dumar was very careful about avoiding any conflict with her).  Basically Meredith had the much bigger stick.  Bottom line.  That, however, is not a good recipie for a stable city-state.

-Polaris


[/quote]