359 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it's hard to ignore the waves and waves and more waves ...

Then you'd probably understand why the Circle's anullment continues happening even when Orsino surrenders (even if you don't support it)?

[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's the excuse that Hawke gives if/when he sides with the Templars but the part I bolded is a complete crok as even a cursury look at the game world and game facts show.  The circle mages had all been locked away in the gallows for a long time, and the gallows itself is a highly inaccessible island that used to be  a Tevinter prison!

Then it's odd how many people seem to just come and go, including rogue mages. Or have you not noticed the maleficar that infest parts of the sewers or the Blood Mages roaming the streets of frickin' High Town?

Which are almost all to a man illegal apostates (and Malificar) and thus explicitly the responsibility of the Templars.  Not only is Meridith a Fruit-loop, but she and her Templars are apparently incompetant.

We are also told by Aveline that the guard is keeping order in the city.

But of course you give Aveline the benefit of the doubt when it's part of an argument that favors mages, and doubt her word in every other case.

I don't actually.  I think she made the wrong (but defensible) call when trying to beard the Arishok in his den over the elves, but I also think the Arishok once he found out about the relic was looking to attack the city anyways.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

But I also can't dismiss that many probably turned to bloodmagic because Meredith was a bad knight commander, maybe the worst possible.

But you admit there's a lot of blood mages?

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

But I also can't dismiss that many probably turned to bloodmagic because Meredith was a bad knight commander, maybe the worst possible.

But you admit there's a lot of blood mages?

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter how many. All that matters is that they are there, and in significant number.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter how many. All that matters is that they are there, and in significant number.

How do you they are there "in significant number"? Is this more speculation you're putting forth as fact?

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it's hard to ignore the waves and waves and more waves ...

Then you'd probably understand why the Circle's anullment continues happening even when Orsino surrenders (even if you don't support it)?

Well thing is I understand the small templar. He or she was raised in a 'the order dictates' fashion, used to follow orders etc. and probably thinking that he/she is fighting the good fight. Who I don't understand is Cullen. He stands against Meredith when he wants to kill Hawke. Even if Hawke is a Bloodmage and even if hawke sided with the mages against the templars. Why didn't he do it when Meredith called the Right? Would have saved everyone alot of trouble. Because frankly I think they would have killed Meredith, Cullen would have taken over and things would have gotten alot better. And if then still Bloodmages would have spawned everywhere in Kirkwall I'd personally go to Orsino and chop his head off for being the lousiest First Enchanter in the history of Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter how many. All that matters is that they are there, and in significant number.

How do you they are there "in significant number"? Is this more speculation you're putting forth as fact?

No it is based on the fact that you run into entire packs of them. If it wasn't a significant presence, they would have made them like the Bloodragers, with just 1 or 2 Blood mages and a lot of THralls (or more likely Corpses in this case).

[Xewaka]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well thing is I understand the small templar. He or she was raised in a 'the order dictates' fashion, used to follow orders etc. and probably thinking that he/she is fighting the good fight. Who I don't understand is Cullen. He stands against Meredith when he wants to kill Hawke. Even if Hawke is a Bloodmage and even if hawke sided with the mages against the templars. Why didn't he do it when Meredith called the Right? Would have saved everyone alot of trouble. Because frankly I think they would have killed Meredith, Cullen would have taken over and things would have gotten alot better. And if then still Bloodmages would have spawned everywhere in Kirkwall I'd personally go to Orsino and chop his head off for being the lousiest First Enchanter in the history of Thedas.

Because, in a military organization, mutiny equals treason in the criminal severitude ranks, and it is the worst attrocity that can be commited. You don't lead a munity unless you're well damn sure those above the officer you're deposing will agree with your actions, and even then.

Modifié par Xewaka, 13 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

But I also can't dismiss that many probably turned to bloodmagic because Meredith was a bad knight commander, maybe the worst possible.

But you admit there's a lot of blood mages?

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter how many. All that matters is that they are there, and in significant number.

Well thing is that for me bloodmagic is not evil unless it is used for evil purpose. Or bringing about evil things, like Orsino turning into a Harvester. So no, I don't think every mage who is a bloodmage should die or be made tranquil. Logcially I then can't say that any number of bloodmages justifies to annull the circle. In my opinion.

Even though I have to say I find it unbelievable stupid of the mages in kirkwall to resort to bloodmagic at all. I mean it didn't really make them powerful and if anything gave their haters more reason to hate them. All very stupid.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

but she and her Templars are apparently incompetant.

-Polaris

When she actually does something about it, you dismiss it as anti-mage hate and we're monsters for supporting her.

Funny.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

Except the ones we've seen in the game which are shown in large enough numbers which is more than enough reason to justify anullment.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[AlexXIV]

Xewaka wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well thing is I understand the small templar. He or she was raised in a 'the order dictates' fashion, used to follow orders etc. and probably thinking that he/she is fighting the good fight. Who I don't understand is Cullen. He stands against Meredith when he wants to kill Hawke. Even if Hawke is a Bloodmage and even if hawke sided with the mages against the templars. Why didn't he do it when Meredith called the Right? Would have saved everyone alot of trouble. Because frankly I think they would have killed Meredith, Cullen would have taken over and things would have gotten alot better. And if then still Bloodmages would have spawned everywhere in Kirkwall I'd personally go to Orsino and chop his head off for being the lousiest First Enchanter in the history of Thedas.

Because, in a military organization, mutiny ranks with treason in the criminal severitude ranks. You don't lead a munity unless you're well damn sure those above the officer you're deposing will agree with your actions, and even then.

I think Cullen knew pretty well even at the point where Meredith calls the Annullment that next to nobody supports her and every single templar was looking up to him, not Meredith.

[EmperorSahlertz]

AlexXIV wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

But I also can't dismiss that many probably turned to bloodmagic because Meredith was a bad knight commander, maybe the worst possible.

But you admit there's a lot of blood mages?

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter how many. All that matters is that they are there, and in significant number.

Well thing is that for me bloodmagic is not evil unless it is used for evil purpose. Or bringing about evil things, like Orsino turning into a Harvester. So no, I don't think every mage who is a bloodmage should die or be made tranquil. Logcially I then can't say that any number of bloodmages justifies to annull the circle. In my opinion.

Even though I have to say I find it unbelievable stupid of the mages in kirkwall to resort to bloodmagic at all. I mean it didn't really make them powerful and if anything gave their haters more reason to hate them. All very stupid.

Personal opinion is irrelevant. Blood magic is against the law. The presence of blood mages within the Circle is enough to warrant the annulment.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Lets not forget Aveline doesn't care much for siding with the mages. Clearly she'd rather keep order.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

Except the ones we've seen in the game which are shown in large enough numbers which is more than enough reason to justify anullment.

To who? We never know the Divine's response to Meredith's request. All we know is that the Circle of Magi is going to be killed because of the actions of an apostate who was never a member of Kirkwall's Circle.

[Xewaka]

AlexXIV wrote...
I think Cullen knew pretty well even at the point where Meredith calls the Annullment that next to nobody supports her and every single templar was looking up to him, not Meredith.

And he, as her second in command, makes her know his opinion regarding so. But he still has to follow orders.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

But I also can't dismiss that many probably turned to bloodmagic because Meredith was a bad knight commander, maybe the worst possible.

But you admit there's a lot of blood mages?

Hawke faces a lot of mages who use blood magic, but we have no information on how many blood mages there are in the Circle of Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter how many. All that matters is that they are there, and in significant number.

Well thing is that for me bloodmagic is not evil unless it is used for evil purpose. Or bringing about evil things, like Orsino turning into a Harvester. So no, I don't think every mage who is a bloodmage should die or be made tranquil. Logcially I then can't say that any number of bloodmages justifies to annull the circle. In my opinion.

Even though I have to say I find it unbelievable stupid of the mages in kirkwall to resort to bloodmagic at all. I mean it didn't really make them powerful and if anything gave their haters more reason to hate them. All very stupid.

Personal opinion is irrelevant. Blood magic is against the law. The presence of blood mages within the Circle is enough to warrant the annulment.

Well yes, it justifies it according to a law. Just if I think the law sucks then I can't agree with it. I am not discussing whether someone acted lawful. I was talking about morality. And not every law is just or even morally acceptable.

[AlexXIV]

Xewaka wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I think Cullen knew pretty well even at the point where Meredith calls the Annullment that next to nobody supports her and every single templar was looking up to him, not Meredith.

And he, as her second in command, makes her know his opinion regarding so. But he still has to follow orders.

I don't deny that. He follows orders. What I am saying is that he shouldn't have.

[IanPolaris]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Lets not forget Aveline doesn't care much for siding with the mages. Clearly she'd rather keep order.

Aveline was married to a Templar for many years and if it weren't for the darkspawn and the fact that Wesley was injured, she wouldn't have had an issue with helping him kill Bethany (and Hawke) when they first meet.

That means that Aveline is not a fair measure by which to make a moral judgement for the same reason that Fenris isn't (although less extreme).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I think Cullen knew pretty well even at the point where Meredith calls the Annullment that next to nobody supports her and every single templar was looking up to him, not Meredith.

And he, as her second in command, makes her know his opinion regarding so. But he still has to follow orders.

I don't deny that. He follows orders. What I am saying is that he shouldn't have.

Indeed, the Nuremberg trials settled this.  You can be held accountable for following a legal order that you know to be morally wrong and it is assumed you should have known the order was morally wrong and not obeyed.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

Why didn't he do it when Meredith called the Right?

Because he wasn't sure about Meredith until that situation where he realizes that she's not-all-there and realizes that others feel the same, he only questions her openly when her behavior becomes irratic and unreasonable.

Because frankly I think they would have killed Meredith, Cullen would have taken over and things would have gotten alot better.

Honestly, this is what I wanted to happen, which is insanely odd due to my behavior on Cullen before DA2, though I'm pretty certain that during Act 3 the events which would happen had been set in stone from the start. Everything was falling into place since Act 2 and by Act 3, you've got the most restless Circle that regardless of who was in charge they'd eventually rebel.

Though that's speculation, I'm just doubting that they'd sit casually and abandon blood magic and their dreams of freedom.

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Lets not forget Aveline doesn't care much for siding with the mages. Clearly she'd rather keep order.

Aveline was married to a Templar for many years and if it weren't for the darkspawn and the fact that Wesley was injured, she wouldn't have had an issue with helping him kill Bethany (and Hawke) when they first meet.

That means that Aveline is not a fair measure by which to make a moral judgement for the same reason that Fenris isn't (although less extreme).

-Polaris

Well she sides with the mages if Hawke does.

Which means she can't feel that wrong about it.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Lets not forget Aveline doesn't care much for siding with the mages. Clearly she'd rather keep order.

Aveline was married to a Templar for many years and if it weren't for the darkspawn and the fact that Wesley was injured, she wouldn't have had an issue with helping him kill Bethany (and Hawke) when they first meet.

That means that Aveline is not a fair measure by which to make a moral judgement for the same reason that Fenris isn't (although less extreme).

-Polaris

Not exactly sure about your assessment. Her response to Fenris about how not all Mages are evil or she would have been the first to act. I think even if her husband wasn't injured on his sword hand she probably would have stopped him. She was also not a true Andrastian as well. So she isn't as likely as her husband to believe what the Chantry claims about Magic. She just hates anyone who is out to break the peace and cause unrest. I never really saw her as a real mage hater. She seemed more like Isabela in the way of judgement by their own merrits. It just took them a long time to see each other eye to eye.

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Why didn't he do it when Meredith called the Right?

Because he wasn't sure about Meredith until that situation where he realizes that she's not-all-there and realizes that others feel the same, he only questions her openly when her behavior becomes irratic and unreasonable.

Because frankly I think they would have killed Meredith, Cullen would have taken over and things would have gotten alot better.

Honestly, this is what I wanted to happen, which is insanely odd due to my behavior on Cullen before DA2, though I'm pretty certain that during Act 3 the events which would happen had been set in stone from the start. Everything was falling into place since Act 2 and by Act 3, you've got the most restless Circle that regardless of who was in charge they'd eventually rebel.

Though that's speculation, I'm just doubting that they'd sit casually and abandon blood magic and their dreams of freedom.

I was at first torn between siding with templars or mages. And I would rather side with the templars if only to have my Hawke become Viscount and not lose her home and everything. And because I like Cullen. I liked him in DA;O already and flirted with my amell mage with him.

But to side with the templars the mages or at least Orsino should have been more aggressive confronting Meredith. It is just odd to me to side with the templars after Orsino basically pleads for mercy to Meredith. That's the point I can't get over.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

IanPolaris wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Lets not forget Aveline doesn't care much for siding with the mages. Clearly she'd rather keep order.

Aveline was married to a Templar for many years and if it weren't for the darkspawn and the fact that Wesley was injured, she wouldn't have had an issue with helping him kill Bethany (and Hawke) when they first meet.

That means that Aveline is not a fair measure by which to make a moral judgement for the same reason that Fenris isn't (although less extreme).

-Polaris

What on earth leads you to believe that Aveline would have killed you or Bethany if it wasn't for the darkspawn aside from the story you've clearly made up in your own head?

[In Exile]

AlexXIV wrote...
I can't hide that I am a bit disappointed that so many people think that the templars are the morally better option. I am not an unreasonable or stubborn person in general. I have read many threads and posts on the topic. I always end up thinking the mages are the morally higher ground. Not because I think the mages should be free as birds, but because I think in this Annullment situation the templars are doing everything wrong. I am not anti templar or anti chantry in general. But there are alot of things that need improving. And this sepecial situation in Kirkwall shows to me everything that is wrong with the chantry and the circles.

Thinking that the templars are not monsters is not equivalent to thinking they are the morally better option. I think that systematic killing, to that extent, can't be excused. But they are not all mustache twirling villains bent on murder and torture and mayhem.

Some templars (like Alrik) are absolute scum. But mages like Decimus are scum of a different sort.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to justify standing against the mages for any Hawke's on moral grounds (templars are justified) versus vindictive ones (bloodmages killed my mother). But that being said I don't think portraing the mages as victims is entirely justified. They are victims when it comes to the Right of Annulment as it is invoked by Anders... but many of them (including Orsino) is criminal.

And remember that we just had a mage revolt prior to Orsino taking to the streets (templars and mages, though).