411 réponses à ce sujet

[ROF_Inferno]

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

ROF_Inferno wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I really liked the improvements of the ME2 combat system over the first game, but what annoyed me to no end is having to look up for ammo for my weapons. I don´t like shooters too much, and one of the reasons is that they all use ammo. When i played ME1 i was delighted to see the weapon heat system and how it worked, it stopped you from shooting non-stop but at the same time avoid the mindless grind for ammo. You could waste a shot here an there without worry, say shooting at a crystal or the water to see the effect. With ammo you can´t waste any shoot doing these things.

My suggestion for ME3 is to remove ammo completely for the game, and bring the old heat system back. Instead of ammo there would be certain mods like in ME1 that allowed you to fire longer. The recharge button "R", would now consist on a heatsink but not like those on ME2. When you press R your weapon automatically cool down, instead of you having to wait to cool off like in ME1, and shepard does the reload animation as the heat sink goes off. I believe this is the best of both systems. Powerful weapons would have very high heat increase after each shoot, and heavy weapons may be the exception, having a limited number of charges per mission. Say a grenade launcher has 10 shots, that replenish after each mission, so you don´t have to go around looking for ammo as well.

I wonder what other people thought about the ammo system, i think it was
agaisnt the lore of the game and was also a liabilty that added nothing
to the game, but instead made it more similar to all the other shooters
out there. I know there are older threads about this topic but given
that ME3 is not too far away i think it is a good time to bring up this
topic to see what people think about it.

OMG really, so u like ME 1 where u can overdrive ur weapons a shoot weapons like a pistol and shoot 200 shots in over a minute. this is REALITY kid nothing keeps shooting all day long and FYI most ppl hated the fact there was no ammo clips it takes a lot of strategy and difficulty out the game the point is to make ME REALISTIC and believable i mean geez not even star wars has unlimited ammo - the lightsaber. If anything ammo shouldnt replentish itslef automatically

...........................................

just wanted to leave a few periods for you to use.

also, this isnt reality its a video game. star wars would never incorporate something as stupid as ammo clips or enemy protections. mass effect would.

In Star Wars Ewoks save the day:whistle:

yeah how many thermal clips does an ewok carry

[ROF_Inferno]

IMVHO this thread is pointless were woring about an ammo mechanic one of the smallest miniscule aspects of any game. There are million of more important topics to talk about and we waste 9 pages on ammo. Harbinger would be proud

[didymos1120]

ROF_Inferno wrote...

IMVHO this thread is pointless were woring about an ammo mechanic one of the smallest miniscule aspects of any game. There are million of more important topics to talk about and we waste 9 pages on ammo. Harbinger would be proud

It's not pointless because of that.  It's pointless because there's pretty much no way in hell they're dropping the system from the game.  They made their decision during ME2's development.  It's done.

[The Spamming Troll]

Skid606 wrote...

Don't really have the patience to run through all the pages on this topic so if I'm repeating please forgive me.

I like the idea of having thermal clips for Mass Effect 3, in fact I want them to be rare, valuable and hard to find at times. Before you claim blasphemy listen to my revised system. The thermal clips are supposedly meant to allow weapons to essentially instantly cool off because all the thermal energy resides in the clip. That doesn't mean the weapon can't cool on its own though.

Allow a ME1 system where a certain number of shots fired consecutively will result in an overheat. once the weapon builds up excessive (to the player) amounts of heat, the player can eject the thermal clip which is lost forever. If there is breathing room the player has the option to simply wait the overheat out and not waist a clip.

i think alot of people assumed this is how ammo would have been handled. it makes sense, to bad bioware simplified the weapons just as much as they simplified everything else.

thermal clips should be exactly waht we all assumed they were going to be. to add to your idea, i thought clips would be carried like medigel, and can be used when the player wants the instant cooldown, or just wait in cover for the regular cooldown. it makes too much sense, i can only assume EA had a hand in that decision, because its stupid.

[Ship.wreck_]

Mykel54 wrote...

When i played ME1 i was delighted to see the weapon heat system and how it worked, it stopped you from shooting non-stop but at the same time avoid the mindless grind for ammo. You could waste a shot here an there without worry, say shooting at a crystal or the water to see the effect. With ammo you can´t waste any shoot doing these things.

My suggestion for ME3 is to remove ammo completely for the game, and bring the old heat system back. Instead of ammo there would be certain mods like in ME1 that allowed you to fire longer. The recharge button "R", would now consist on a heatsink but not like those on ME2. When you press R your weapon automatically cool down, instead of you having to wait to cool off like in ME1, and shepard does the reload animation as the heat sink goes off. I believe this is the best of both systems.

I wonder what other people thought about the ammo system, i think it was agaisnt the lore of the game and was also a liabilty that added nothing to the game, but instead made it more similar to all the other shooters out there.

I wouldn't call the active management of ammo "mindless" that's actually the opposite of mindless aka: thinking. You can always waste ammo doing whatever you want. Just save the game, shoot the hell out of the place then load up before you wated your ammo.

However, your proposal is EXACTLY what they should do with ME3 and should have done with ME2. I mean that's exactly what they said it would be. The premesis of the game already establish that ammo for all practical intents and purposes is unlimited. Then the DESCRIPTION of the thermal clips makes perfect sense, it says basically, that the clips make it so you don't have to wait for cooldowns anymore. You can just change out thermal clips and skip the cooldown.

So if the gun works exactly the same (and it's supposed to) then ammo is supposed to still be unlimited. And if thermal clips are purely just an invention to avoid waiting for cooldowns, then it should work exactly like ME but when you overheat change out clips to keep shooting.

But if you actually play ME2 and see their in game execution of that simple thermal clip description, you'll see that the clips don't work anything like they're described, and that the whole "thermal clip" thing was just a ploy to introduce limited ammo to a game that by it's own premesis isn't supposed to have it.

Also even with thermal clips there's no reason the guns shouldn't retain built in heat sinks so that you can keep shooting normally if you're out of clips. AND if the whole purpose of thermal clips is just to absorb heat there's no reason used clips shouldn't cool down in their own time and be tottally re-useable.

So you're right, the guns should work exactly as they did in ME1 with the added bonus of using thermal clips to avoid cooldown times (and without making reload times just as long as cooldown waits as that would completely defeat the purpose) PLUS thermal clips should be completely re-usable so you still don't have to look for them, PLUS on the occasions that you do loose some clips, or they're all overheated and haven't cooled down yet, you should still be able to operate the weapon exactly as in the original.

That's the only way they can reconcile the game with the game's own lore. The ME2 version of thermal clips was a tremendous mistake that created a huge discrepency between game and lore.

Avissel wrote...

The problem with the old system was that it could be cheesed so that you could just use the right mods and fire forever.

That's not a problem that's the whole point OF the mods. You can also "cheese it" and use the right mods to make your sniper riffle and shotgun so powerful they kill any personell enemy in one shot.

So using the mods you can make a low powered weapon that never over heats, an over-powered weapon that over heats in one shot, or anywhere inbetween in terms of balance between power and heat. It's entirely up to the player. If you don't like that such weapons can be made with mods... then don't use the mods. But don't try to convince bioware to take the feature out and F it up for those of us who get it.

[didymos1120]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
 it makes too much sense, i can only assume EA had a hand in that decision, because its stupid.

Oh, so because you personally don't like it, it had to be because EA made them do it? To quote a wise turian:  what insane breed of logic is that? But no. Not how it happened.  It wasn't imposed from the top-down.  It came from the other direction:

“One of the most controversial changes to the combat was probably how ammo works,” Hudson goes on. “It was something that wasn’t part of the main game design but instead was implemented as a test by a gameplay programmer. The Lead Designer was against the idea, but tested the ‘ammo’ version of the game for several weeks in total secrecy before concluding that it made a huge improvement to the tension and pacing of combat. Then when he pitched it to me, I was against it until I played it for a while and was convinced as well. Some of the best ideas in ME2 happened that way, where a passionate member of the team took their own time to try something they thought would be great, and it eventually passed harsh scrutiny to become part of the experience.”

You don't like it.  They did. 

[Sajuro]

ROF_Inferno wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

ROF_Inferno wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I really liked the improvements of the ME2 combat system over the first game, but what annoyed me to no end is having to look up for ammo for my weapons. I don´t like shooters too much, and one of the reasons is that they all use ammo. When i played ME1 i was delighted to see the weapon heat system and how it worked, it stopped you from shooting non-stop but at the same time avoid the mindless grind for ammo. You could waste a shot here an there without worry, say shooting at a crystal or the water to see the effect. With ammo you can´t waste any shoot doing these things.

My suggestion for ME3 is to remove ammo completely for the game, and bring the old heat system back. Instead of ammo there would be certain mods like in ME1 that allowed you to fire longer. The recharge button "R", would now consist on a heatsink but not like those on ME2. When you press R your weapon automatically cool down, instead of you having to wait to cool off like in ME1, and shepard does the reload animation as the heat sink goes off. I believe this is the best of both systems. Powerful weapons would have very high heat increase after each shoot, and heavy weapons may be the exception, having a limited number of charges per mission. Say a grenade launcher has 10 shots, that replenish after each mission, so you don´t have to go around looking for ammo as well.

I wonder what other people thought about the ammo system, i think it was
agaisnt the lore of the game and was also a liabilty that added nothing
to the game, but instead made it more similar to all the other shooters
out there. I know there are older threads about this topic but given
that ME3 is not too far away i think it is a good time to bring up this
topic to see what people think about it.

OMG really, so u like ME 1 where u can overdrive ur weapons a shoot weapons like a pistol and shoot 200 shots in over a minute. this is REALITY kid nothing keeps shooting all day long and FYI most ppl hated the fact there was no ammo clips it takes a lot of strategy and difficulty out the game the point is to make ME REALISTIC and believable i mean geez not even star wars has unlimited ammo - the lightsaber. If anything ammo shouldnt replentish itslef automatically

...........................................

just wanted to leave a few periods for you to use.

also, this isnt reality its a video game. star wars would never incorporate something as stupid as ammo clips or enemy protections. mass effect would.

In Star Wars Ewoks save the day:whistle:

yeah how many thermal clips does an ewok carry

Zero,0, none, Ewoks carried rocks and spears
Rocks and Spears VS super advanced empire capable of building laser that KILLS PLANETS, rocks and spears win.
kind of stupid, also with the exhaust port with could not be bothered to take one or two turns so you couldn't literally look down and say "hey, I see the reactor core!"

[Elite Midget]

So you want them to retcon out their retcon which had retconned out what had been established before? Is that your anwser to this problem? Retcon instead of just improving?

[didymos1120]

Ship.wreck wrote...

But if you actually play ME2 and see their in game execution of that simple thermal clip description, you'll see that the clips don't work anything like they're described...

They work exactly as described: detachable heat sinks that can be swapped in less than a second.  That's all the Codex has to say about how they work.  Unless you can find me some actual in-game text that implies they actually can cool down, I don't know where you got this idea from.

[Pwener2313]

Elite Midget wrote...

So you want them to retcon out their retcon which had retconned out what had been established before? Is that your anwser to this problem? Retcon instead of just improving?

Out of character. I disapprove. You are a fraud.

[Sajuro]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

But if you actually play ME2 and see their in game execution of that simple thermal clip description, you'll see that the clips don't work anything like they're described...

They work exactly as described: detachable heat sinks that can be swapped in less than a second.  That's all the Codex has to say about how they work.  Unless you can find me some actual in-game text that implies they actually can cool down, I don't know where you got this idea from.

who knows, maybe they cool between missions which is why you start off with full ammo.

[chester013]

If you hate thermal clips so much, just play mass effect 1. Go on, off you pop back to 2007 we'll play ME3 with thermal clips and you wont clog the forums with this crap any more.

[nickkcin11]

No. The way you described reload without ammo would make the game unbelievably easy. I would just use the Mattock. Ammo requires you to use all weapons in a large firefight.

[Elite Midget]

chester013 wrote...

If you hate thermal clips so much, just play mass effect 1. Go on, off you pop back to 2007 we'll play ME3 with thermal clips and you wont clog the forums with this crap any more.

That isn't a solution to anyones problem. He'll still hate Thermal Clips and you'll still be hateing on him for hateing. The best solution is to improve upon termal clips than asking for another retcon over a retcon.

[Manic Sheep]

I personally like having ammo. Makes it feel like you actually have to place your shots more carefully so you don't run out.  IMO they usually did relatively well with having about the right amount around the place to keep things going smoothly without giving you too much so ammo becomes pointless and you don’t have to watch you shots, even when using the widow. It’s not like you really had to go hunting for ammo. It was never hard to find and you had more than one gun to fall back on in the tighter fights anyway.
What they had in ME1 was interesting and different but to be honest I don’t like it that much from a game play POV. Trying new things is good, but it’s not necessarily always going to be better. It seem to just slow you down but not really add any challenge. When got to higher levels and got the right mods and then it didn’t really matter anymore and you could just keep praying and spraying to your heart’s content without thinking about it.
I wouldn’t be appose to them hybriding they system tho. Maybe while you have ammo you can fire quickly without fear of overheating but if you wasted it all and were not aiming properly you would run out you have to wait considerably longer between shots to prevent overheating. If they did this and there was another mission like Jacobs LM then they could not give you ammo for the whole mission as part of an added challenge and would be more or less lore friendly. Well I think that would work anyway. It sounds good on paper to me. Don’t know if it would actually be good in the game.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 19 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[Bluko]

flem1 wrote...

Whereto wrote...

Now if you want to stay behind one block of cover with your never ending supply of shots, be my guest.

This is, in fact, exactly what half the complainers want.  With a sniper rifle, no less.

Lame.

Right because if you're Inflitrator who likes to use Sniper Rifles and you're facing oh say... like 30-40 Husks (isn't nice how Shepard never has to face much more then like 10 enemies at a time?) you want to run out of ammo after 10-12 shots with your primary weapon...

*Click Click*

Shepard:"Oh darn I need some more ammo! Well I guess I should move from this safe location right into the middle of the enemy."

*Shepard jumps down from vantage point into mob Husks*

Shepard:"Wait why are there no thermal clips? Oh wait Husks don't use weapons..."

Husk:"Ennnggghhhh!"

*Husks grab Shepards limbs*

Shepard:Hey cut that out! Let me just switch to this crappy pistol-"

*Husks tear Shepard's limbs off*

Shepard:"Oww you motherf#$%&^*s! Dammit if my guns just didn't run of thermal clips so quickly I could have saved the Galaxy! This is all your fault Geth!"

CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE

Modifié par Bluko, 19 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[Praetor Knight]

Elite Midget wrote...

chester013 wrote...

If you hate thermal clips so much, just play mass effect 1. Go on, off you pop back to 2007 we'll play ME3 with thermal clips and you wont clog the forums with this crap any more.

That isn't a solution to anyones problem. He'll still hate Thermal Clips and you'll still be hateing on him for hateing. The best solution is to improve upon termal clips than asking for another retcon over a retcon.

Well, I have some ideas that I've tossed about to make improvements, most are not optimal, and not original, but they might give someone else a better idea.

The simplest is to change the HUD's display, and when a weapon is reloaded the unused shots are lost.

Another idea is to automatically refill the weapons after a fight when there is a lull/ transition to the next engagement, normally we find Power Cells or an Armory in the level during this time.

Lastly, I'll only post a tidbit (since I have a blog entry on it) but another idea is to add power for at least the three combat classes that would allow Shepard to restore the equipped weapon's capacity, during a fight, so that way a player can choose to evolve that power over another if they so want. It seems like it could add to the Soldier and Infiltrator without being OP if balanced properly and keep Thermal Clips as is.

[Ship.wreck_]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

But if you actually play ME2 and see their in game execution of that simple thermal clip description, you'll see that the clips don't work anything like they're described...

They work exactly as described: detachable heat sinks that can be swapped in less than a second.  That's all the Codex has to say about how they work.  Unless you can find me some actual in-game text that implies they actually can cool down, I don't know where you got this idea from.

Actually that's not necessary because it's an indisputable fact that all hot things eventually cool down. It's physically impossible for something to be heated and never cool.

They're described as being a removable version of the original built in heat sinks of ME.

If that were the case the gun would function exactly as in ME except that they could be swapped out to skip cool down waits.

That's obviously not how they work, so obviously they don't function as described.

Bottom line, you put them in your gun, you have a certain number of shots. You shoot those shots and you have to reload. That is EXACTLY the function of an ammo clip, and therefore the only way for them to "function as they were described" would be if the were described as exactly that: AMMO CLIPS. They work like ammo clips that's not debateable. But they're called thermal clips, also not debateable. Unless you've got a dictionary laying around that lists "ammo" and "thermal" as synonyms then the description doesn't match the function. And that's not debateable either.

You can choose to dissagree. But that would be incorrect by any logical or technical assesment.

[Praetor Knight]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Bottom line, you put them in your gun, you have a certain number of shots. You shoot those shots and you have to reload. That is EXACTLY the function of an ammo clip, and therefore the only way for them to "function as they were described" would be if the were described as exactly that: AMMO CLIPS. They work like ammo clips that's not debateable. But they're called thermal clips, also not debateable. Unless you've got a dictionary laying around that lists "ammo" and "thermal" as synonyms then the description doesn't match the function. And that's not debateable either.

You can choose to dissagree. But that would be incorrect by any logical or technical assesment.

Well, I would just like to add that a clip does not go inside of a weapon, it is used to feed the magazine.

http://en.wikipedia....ip_(ammunition)

[Doright36]

I'd just like to note my vote on this topic. The system is fine. Just let me carry more clips. Maybe through upgrades or something. If I want to use a certain pistol I shouldn't be limited to only 18 rounds is all I am saying. I don't mind ammo scrounging after a firefight but not 4 or 5 times during a firefight.

[Ship.wreck_]

Wether anyone likes ammo clips or not and wether anyone likes playing with them or not, is NOT the issue here. The bottom line is that thermal clips as they've been portrayed in game violate the established lore of the ME universe.

ME clearly states that ammo is practically unlimited, they can call the clips "thermal" and get away with it with half of you guys. But no matter what they call the clips, they function as limited ammo which violates the lore PERIOD.

So whether you like them, or don't; wether you think they make gameplay worse, or better doesn't matter either way. The point is they don't make sense in the ME universe unless they stop functioning as limited ammo and start working like removeable heat sinks. And heat sinks are re-usable. In fact a functioning heat sink prevents it's device from overheating 99% of the time.

Being a bunch of PC gamers I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone, but given your arguments so far you're not connecting the dots. Think of the heat sink on your CPU. How often do you need to replace your PC heatsink? umm yeah, never. When you put in a heatsink to a PC does that give you a limited number of operating minutes for your computer? No. Nope, your computer with it's heatsink can run indefinently without burning out under normal circumstances. Yes, it's possible to run your computer over heat capacity and over heat it. In which case you would have to shut it off to let it cool down. Same idea with ME guns. But you wouldn't NEED to take it apart and replace anything if you shut it off in time before it burns anything out. And even if you did, the heatsink its self won't burn out till long after you've got an electrical fire on your hands.
And what are thermal clips? Removeable heatsinks. That's ALL. Just a heat sink in a clip that you can switch out quicly so you don't have to wait for a cooldown of the heatsink that's at capacity.

So logically speaking there's no reason a thermal clip should ever "run out". Just reach capacity and need to cool down. Which means it should work just like ME except with an option to skip the cool down time IF you've got an extra clip on your hands. And if you don't just wait for the cool down. And either way, clips should always cool down and be re-usable once they do.

[Ship.wreck_]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
Well, I would just like to add that a clip does not go inside of a weapon, it is used to feed the magazine.

http://en.wikipedia....ip_(ammunition)

I served in the Navy and I'm well aware of the difference between clips and magazines. I didn't feel it necessary to explain that to the gamer general populace.

Also since thermal clips actually have clip in the tittle, gives a little wiggle room with technicall terms given the context of the ME universe... I guess...

[Schattenkeil]

Hrm... apart from the problem that I prefer a weapon that has the look & feel of a real gun to behave like a real gun - i.e. either introduce conventional ammunition or make the weapons sound, look and behave different, remove the muzzle fire etc. well, apart from that it's difficult to make up my mind on that topic.

I never considered gathering armor a huge problem. Exploration has always been a central aspect of Bioware's games. After an extend firefight I explore the site of the battle and the ammo comes on its own. I never ran out completely of ammo during a firefirght in Mass Effect 2.

Given my problems I had with the system, as I detailed above I prefer the ME1 way though. Because the weapon feels less like a normal, conventional weapon. A weapon that feels like a normal weapon should use completely normal ammunition, because that's most conclusive. But a weapon that doesn't eject shell and has this "a few seconds" cooldown is really more different from conventional. In a way you could say that I simply don't like this compromise in ME2, it's not really ammo though it feels like it.

It doesn't really make sense that if you pick up a thermal clip it appds six shot for the heavy pistol and one shot for the basic sniper rifle, and that you can't even replace them six to one, but that's necessary to get the player actually thinking of way to actually use all their guns, each for their own purpose.

The behavior of the weapons in Mass Effect seemed more conclusive to me. No shells for those mass effect field weapons. If they produce heat I still wonder how it comes that the cool down time in atmosphere is the same as in vacuum, but that's a minor problem. The problem with that is that it actually made it worthwhile to hide behind a single one cover as far from the enemy as possible and keep shooting forever until the enemy dropped dead eventually. With the depletable ammo you have to actually think tactically, which weapon to use when at which difference, how to move forward to get the enemy in close range once sniper rifle is depleted etc.

Another suggestion of mine:
Since my idea of simply using conventional ammo didn't seem to find too many friends, how is this:
In recent RPGs it's been common that health and "stamina" replenishes automatically after a fight ends. Couldn't the same work for ammo? It's "per-firefight"? Every weapon has a certain ammo level that replenishes after each fight. The weapons also have a limited in-fight cooldown, but that gives you ammo only at a very, very slow rate and is meant to give you a tad more ammo for lengthy fights. The basic pistol has a cooldown that allows you to keep fighting if you run out completely but you will have to take relatively long pauses behind cover if you do. Say you'd have to stay in cover twice as long as you can stay out shooting.The real heavy sniper rifle would rebuild... say one bullet per 45 seconds, but of course instantly replenish after the fight.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 19 avril 2011 - 06:37 .

[Nimander]

I don't mind the idea of thermal clips. They did it primarily to make sure people use multiple weapons. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is open to question, but I like swapping between my assault rifle to shotgun to sniper rifle on my soldier.

However.

I think the way things work with cilps is a little tetchety. Some sort of auto-gathering clips ala ME1's Equipment would be welcome. Possibly with a touch more ammo at times. It's way /too/ easy to run out of ammo at times. Hopefully somewhere between the two will emerge in ME3. We'll see, though.

[Ship.wreck_]

didymos1120 wrote...
They work exactly as described: detachable heat sinks that can be swapped in less than a second.  That's all the Codex has to say about how they work.  Unless you can find me some actual in-game text that implies they actually can cool down, I don't know where you got this idea from.

Also they're DESCRIBED as being universal, as in you can use any clip from any gun for any gun. When you're gatthering them that SEEMS to be the case BUT...

If they WORKED the way they were DESCRIBED you would never need to switch weapons because you ran out of clips for one. But when you run out of clips for the AR you can't take some from the pistol, or the sniper, or the shotgun, or the smg.

So once again, their function is a FAR cry from their DESCRIPTION