411 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Wether anyone likes ammo clips or not and wether anyone likes playing with them or not, is NOT the issue here. The bottom line is that thermal clips as they've been portrayed in game violate the established lore of the ME universe.

ME clearly states that ammo is practically unlimited, they can call the clips "thermal" and get away with it with half of you guys. But no matter what they call the clips, they function as limited ammo which violates the lore PERIOD.

So whether you like them, or don't; wether you think they make gameplay worse, or better doesn't matter either way. The point is they don't make sense in the ME universe unless they stop functioning as limited ammo and start working like removeable heat sinks. And heat sinks are re-usable. In fact a functioning heat sink prevents it's device from overheating 99% of the time.

Being a bunch of PC gamers I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone, but given your arguments so far you're not connecting the dots. Think of the heat sink on your CPU. How often do you need to replace your PC heatsink? umm yeah, never. When you put in a heatsink to a PC does that give you a limited number of operating minutes for your computer? No. Nope, your computer with it's heatsink can run indefinently without burning out under normal circumstances. Yes, it's possible to run your computer over heat capacity and over heat it. In which case you would have to shut it off to let it cool down. Same idea with ME guns. But you wouldn't NEED to take it apart and replace anything if you shut it off in time before it burns anything out. And even if you did, the heatsink its self won't burn out till long after you've got an electrical fire on your hands.
And what are thermal clips? Removeable heatsinks. That's ALL. Just a heat sink in a clip that you can switch out quicly so you don't have to wait for a cooldown of the heatsink that's at capacity.

So logically speaking there's no reason a thermal clip should ever "run out". Just reach capacity and need to cool down. Which means it should work just like ME except with an option to skip the cool down time IF you've got an extra clip on your hands. And if you don't just wait for the cool down. And either way, clips should always cool down and be re-usable once they do.

   





I do not give a crap about lore of a franchise if that makes for bad game play . I mean Bioware could be starting to base these guns on real life guns. In real life a gun ejects its bullet casing to release the heat and the empty case. so thermal clips do the same things. you people that want it changed just love ME 1 to f**king much. and ME 1 had a bad ammo system plain and simple 

[Lapis Lazuli]

Sajuro wrote...

ROF_Inferno wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

ROF_Inferno wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I really liked the improvements of the ME2 combat system over the first game, but what annoyed me to no end is having to look up for ammo for my weapons. I don´t like shooters too much, and one of the reasons is that they all use ammo. When i played ME1 i was delighted to see the weapon heat system and how it worked, it stopped you from shooting non-stop but at the same time avoid the mindless grind for ammo. You could waste a shot here an there without worry, say shooting at a crystal or the water to see the effect. With ammo you can´t waste any shoot doing these things.

My suggestion for ME3 is to remove ammo completely for the game, and bring the old heat system back. Instead of ammo there would be certain mods like in ME1 that allowed you to fire longer. The recharge button "R", would now consist on a heatsink but not like those on ME2. When you press R your weapon automatically cool down, instead of you having to wait to cool off like in ME1, and shepard does the reload animation as the heat sink goes off. I believe this is the best of both systems. Powerful weapons would have very high heat increase after each shoot, and heavy weapons may be the exception, having a limited number of charges per mission. Say a grenade launcher has 10 shots, that replenish after each mission, so you don´t have to go around looking for ammo as well.

I wonder what other people thought about the ammo system, i think it was
agaisnt the lore of the game and was also a liabilty that added nothing
to the game, but instead made it more similar to all the other shooters
out there. I know there are older threads about this topic but given
that ME3 is not too far away i think it is a good time to bring up this
topic to see what people think about it.

OMG really, so u like ME 1 where u can overdrive ur weapons a shoot weapons like a pistol and shoot 200 shots in over a minute. this is REALITY kid nothing keeps shooting all day long and FYI most ppl hated the fact there was no ammo clips it takes a lot of strategy and difficulty out the game the point is to make ME REALISTIC and believable i mean geez not even star wars has unlimited ammo - the lightsaber. If anything ammo shouldnt replentish itslef automatically

...........................................

just wanted to leave a few periods for you to use.

also, this isnt reality its a video game. star wars would never incorporate something as stupid as ammo clips or enemy protections. mass effect would.

In Star Wars Ewoks save the day:whistle:

yeah how many thermal clips does an ewok carry

Zero,0, none, Ewoks carried rocks and spears
Rocks and Spears VS super advanced empire capable of building laser that KILLS PLANETS, rocks and spears win.
kind of stupid, also with the exhaust port with could not be bothered to take one or two turns so you couldn't literally look down and say "hey, I see the reactor core!"

speaking of killing planets. I wonder if the death star could've made it to tatooine before artoo made it to luke. boom! bye bye tatooine. bye bye plans, bye bye luke, bye bye ben...

[flem1]

And now we have two pages of troll/ignoramus posts from folks who couldn't bother to read that Christina Norman et al. tried and implemented a hybrid system, except it wasn't fun and had to be scrapped.

The decision is done folks, and gameplay much improved for it. They aren't going back now.

[Pwener2313]

flem1 wrote...

And now we have two pages of troll/ignoramus posts from folks who couldn't bother to read that Christina Norman et al. tried and implemented a hybrid system, except it wasn't fun and had to be scrapped.

The decision is done folks, and gameplay much improved for it. They aren't going back now.

A level headed serious post? Not here you don't.

[bald man in a boat]

^LOL^

Is really anything left of the dead horse to even beat at this point?

[Dave666]

flem1 wrote...

And now we have two pages of troll/ignoramus posts from folks who couldn't bother to read that Christina Norman et al. tried and implemented a hybrid system, except it wasn't fun and had to be scrapped.

The decision is done folks, and gameplay much improved for it. They aren't going back now.

The only issue I have with this is it really doesn't sound like they tried very hard to implement it.  How much effort would it have taken to tweak it?  I don't think that there would have been any complaints about a hybrid system and yet there are a great many about the current one.  Thats not even taking into account how ludicrous the current system is from a realistic perspective.  What military in their right minds would switch from a near unlimmited fire rate to a one where when you run out of Thermal Clips you're essentially left with a glorified club to beat enemies to death with (assuming you can get close to said enemy without getting shot first of course).

[CroGamer002]

^What's the point of having unlimited ammo if they can't do jacksh*t?

[Admoniter]

flem1 wrote...

And now we have two pages of troll/ignoramus posts from folks who couldn't bother to read that Christina Norman et al. tried and implemented a hybrid system, except it wasn't fun and had to be scrapped.

The decision is done folks, and gameplay much improved for it. They aren't going back now.

And if the hybrid system we can mod in is reflective of the system the devs were testing and subsequently dropped it, no wonder people complained about it. TC drops remain the same, which kills a hybrid system IMO when one aspect of it is just so dominant. But really would it have taken that much effort to just modify TC drop, make them less common while giving a disadvantage to those who continually overheat their weapons, bam your done.


I will reiterate my previous post here just because. I subscribe to the duck mentality, it looks like ammo, it functions like ammo, it's ammo. Coupled with the tracers added into the game I'm starting to wonder if BW swapped out all our accelerator weapons with caseless chemical propelled firearms while we weren't looking.

Modifié par Admoniter, 19 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Phaedon]

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

[Ship.wreck_]

ExtremeOne wrote... 
I do not give a crap about lore of a franchise if that makes for bad game play . I mean Bioware could be starting to base these guns on real life guns. In real life a gun ejects its bullet casing to release the heat and the empty case. so thermal clips do the same things. you people that want it changed just love ME 1 to f**king much. and ME 1 had a bad ammo system plain and simple 

Fair enough. But for the record limiting ammo isn't any more or less realistic than the original premise of practically unlimited ammo, just because "real life" guns of today have limited ammo.

Bear in mind that "real life" guns of the past could only load one round (projectile + propellent) at a time and the projectile and propellent of the round were separate and had to be loaded separately. I'm talking about the first muzzle loading firearms.

But that didn't stop technology from advancing to the point where many self contained rounds could be loaded into a weapon at one time in built in box magazines ala the M1 Garrand of WWII.

And then technology advanced to non built in interchangeable external box magazines. That's todays weaponry.

Today one of the primary focuses of next generation weapons technology is in making the ammo smaller and lighter so that more can be carried. The premise of the ME weapons is simply that we've succedded in this goal to the point that ammo capacity really isn't even an issue anymore. There's nothing unrealistic about that. If you went back in time and told a US civil war soldier that one day shots would be self contained and pre loaded into detachable box magazines he'd slap you. But obviously the premise wouldn't be as unrealistic as he percieved it to be, because that premise is in fact the case today.

In fact the opposite of your claim is true. ME2 weapons work exactly the way modern weapons do which makes them less realistic as the futuristic weapons of several hundred years from now that they're supposed to be.

Also for the record today's weapons don't eject shell casings to release heat, they only do so to make room for the next round. Heat is vented directly from the barrel by conduction between the barrel and the air molecules that it is directly in contact with.

Some of us argue in favor of a new thermal clip system because we DO give a crap about the lore of the game. Some of us argue in favor of a new thermal clip system that doesn't violate the lore because we prefered the unique gameplay of the original and would like to enhance it rather than foresake it.

So my side of the thermal clip issue can be argued effectively BOTH from gameplay AND lore perspectives. I argue from both. But what really pisses me off is that instead of being straight up and saying "We are contradicting our original portrayal of the ME universe because we feel it would be better for gameplay" they gave us this description of so-called "thermal clips" when they clearly actually function as magazines.

All along thermal clips have been a thinly veiled ploy to introduce limited ammo to a universe where it's not supposed to exist. If they would have forgone the thin veil and just openly admited that they were changing the established lore of the game I wouldn't have been offended. But yeah they seem to think we're so dumb we wouldn't notice that thermal clips are really just limited ammo, and for half of us... they're right. 

[Dave666]

Phaedon wrote...

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

I'm on the 360 so I can't mod, what exactly was the issue with it?

[Pwener2313]

Phaedon wrote...

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

Don't waste time here Phaedon. Everyone around here loves ev erything they used to hate.

Hated Mako - Mako scraped for what people asked for - People hate hammerhead - People want Mako again

Hated elevators - Elevators scraped for loading screens (which people asked for) - People want elevators back

Hipocrasy is a little too plentiful here.

[Dave666]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

Don't waste time here Phaedon. Everyone around here loves ev erything they used to hate.

Hated Mako - Mako scraped for what people asked for - People hate hammerhead - People want Mako again

Hated elevators - Elevators scraped for loading screens (which people asked for) - People want elevators back

Hipocrasy is a little too plentiful here.

There are also those of us who loved the Mako, enjoyed the Elevators etc. So we were sad to see them go in the first place.

[Pwener2313]

Dave666 wrote...

There are also those of us who loved the Mako, enjoyed the Elevators etc. So we were sad to see them go in the first place.

Im generalizing. That's the issue. The same people who hated, now out of the stinking blue loved them.

[CroGamer002]

Dave666 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

I'm on the 360 so I can't mod, what exactly was the issue with it?

You CAN mod XBox 360.

[Dave666]

Mesina2 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

I'm on the 360 so I can't mod, what exactly was the issue with it?

You CAN mod XBox 360.

I meant the hybrid ammo system, as far as I'm aware thats in the ini file.

[Phaedon]

Dave666 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

No, please DON'T.

ME1's system was horrible and the hybrid that you can see in mods is far far worse.

I'm on the 360 so I can't mod, what exactly was the issue with it?

It takes everything bad about ME1's and ME2's system and combines them.

[Schattenkeil]

Admoniter wrote...


I will reiterate my previous post here just because. I subscribe to the duck mentality, it looks like ammo, it functions like ammo, it's ammo. Coupled with the tracers added into the game I'm starting to wonder if BW swapped out all our accelerator weapons with caseless chemical propelled firearms while we weren't looking.

I only actually saw one rl assault rifle using caseless ammunition in a museam for weapon technology of the German army, a H&K G11 assault rifle. Looks a bit like a science fiction gun, too. Wikipedia Article
The problem with those guns was indeed the overheat, due to the lacking thermic insulation through the shell. The initial ignition of the propellant happens in the shell and a lot of the combustion's heat is absorbed by the shell and cannot be transfered to the actual gun before it is ejected.

[Admoniter]

Schattenkeil wrote...
I only actually saw one rl assault rifle using caseless ammunition in a museam for weapon technology of the German army, a H&K G11 assault rifle. Looks a bit like a science fiction gun, too. Wikipedia Article
The problem with those guns was indeed the overheat, due to the lacking thermic insulation through the shell. The initial ignition of the propellant happens in the shell and a lot of the combustion's heat is absorbed by the shell and cannot be transfered to the actual gun before it is ejected.

Never the less I must ask again, BW who are you and what have you done with our mass accelerator weapons?

Modifié par Admoniter, 19 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[R3c0nn4155nc3]

You go back to England or France in the middle ages and say that one day we will explore the stars, they'll put you in chains and burn you at the stake. What I am curious is why not put plasma in ME fields...yes I know that is unreal science-fiction like, but think about it. In the future, where there are mass effect fields that can contain energy? Screw metal, just use plasma or electricitiy.

Also, I don't mind them trying to make up a reason or excuse to use thermal clips to fit in with the current lore, but their reason that the geth started using them makes nada sense. It is so fail, that I can't even laugh at it. Then again, I guess with the economy of the future and heavy inflation bying two frictionless materials for each soldier is unreasonable.

[Ship.wreck_]

Schattenkeil wrote...
I only actually saw one rl assault rifle using caseless ammunition in a museam for weapon technology of the German army, a H&K G11 assault rifle. Looks a bit like a science fiction gun, too. Wikipedia Article
The problem with those guns was indeed the overheat, due to the lacking thermic insulation through the shell. The initial ignition of the propellant happens in the shell and a lot of the combustion's heat is absorbed by the shell and cannot be transfered to the actual gun before it is ejected.

As I mentioned before ejecting shells ins't a function of heat managment. Yes the ignition takes place in the shell. But the propellent burns ALL the way down the barrel (and often out the end result in muzzle flash). The shell doesn't even absorb half the heat of the explosing, not even a fourth. The vast majority of the burn takes place down the barrel and as a result the vast majority of the heat is transfered directly to the weapon.

It's not that the shell sheilds the weapon from heat, it doesn't.

It's that the shell sheild the explosives inside it from the heat of the gun. In a traditional weapons system the shell of the round you're firing doesn't protect the weapon from heat AT ALL. It's that the shell of the NEXT round protects the charge from the heat of the weapon! Basically the opposite of your interpretation.

Caseless ammo didn't work out so well because the unshielded charges tended to accidently ignite do to the heat of the firing chamber from previously fired rounds. The chamber isn't any more or less hot in a normal weapon, it's just that the explosive of the last chambered round is protected from that heat by it's shell.

So shell protect the explosives from the heat of the gun NOT the gun from the heat of an explosion. Shells provide no cooling what-so-ever.

I know, way off topic.

[Dave666]

R3c0nn4155nc3 wrote...

You go back to England or France in the middle ages and say that one day we will explore the stars, they'll put you in chains and burn you at the stake. What I am curious is why not put plasma in ME fields...yes I know that is unreal science-fiction like, but think about it. In the future, where there are mass effect fields that can contain energy? Screw metal, just use plasma or electricitiy.

Also, I don't mind them trying to make up a reason or excuse to use thermal clips to fit in with the current lore, but their reason that the geth started using them makes nada sense. It is so fail, that I can't even laugh at it. Then again, I guess with the economy of the future and heavy inflation bying two frictionless materials for each soldier is unreasonable.

Indeed, its much more reasonable to have to keep those soldiers permanently supplied with Thermal Clips, cause that won't cost more in the long run...

[IntrepidProdigy]

The system in ME1 definitely felt more futuristic, down to the mass effect fields that would trail each high speed slug. It was a much better fit to the ME universe IMO, whereas in ME2 it feels like you're firing a gun from the modern era, it feels/looks boring in comparison (as much as I like every other improvement in gameplay).

I wonder if they thought of actually giving the guns an accurate ammo count (i think it was somewhere near 1,000 rounds or less, depending on what class of gun) in relation to the block of metal that is used for a clip, when they were testing the mechanics of gameplay. There could be way less ammo drops, of course (if any at all) and it would actually make sense compared to having heat sinks that somehow never manage to cool off on their own. Call me a "dreamer", but I'm just obsessed with continuity.

[Dave666]

Personally I'm hoping that with weapons being moddable in ME:3, there'll be a chance to use the old system. If you don't like that system, then don't install that mod, instead you get to install a mod that increases Thermal Clip capacity or something. Seems like a good compromise to me, everybody wins. I just hope that Bioware includes it.

[Ship.wreck_]

IntrepidProdigy wrote...

The system in ME1 definitely felt more futuristic, down to the mass effect fields that would trail each high speed slug. It was a much better fit to the ME universe IMO, whereas in ME2 it feels like you're firing a gun from the modern era, it feels/looks boring in comparison (as much as I like every other improvement in gameplay).

I wonder if they thought of actually giving the guns an accurate ammo count (i think it was somewhere near 1,000 rounds or less, depending on what class of gun) in relation to the block of metal that is used for a clip, when they were testing the mechanics of gameplay. There could be way less ammo drops, of course (if any at all) and it would actually make sense compared to having heat sinks that somehow never manage to cool off on their own. Call me a "dreamer", but I'm just obsessed with continuity.

YES CONTINUITY DAMNIT CONTINUITY!!!

Or if they want to violate continuity fine, I won't like it, but it'll be a much easier pill to swallow if it's not coated in a lie to make me think they're not violating continuity.

"Oh yeah, it's not 'limited ammo' it's just 'thermal clips'" (insert finger quotes)